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Full text of "Juvenile delinquency (obscene and pornographic materials) Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Eighty-fourth Congress, first session, pursuant to S. Res. 62 .."

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S. Res. 62 


MAY 24, 26, 31, JUNE 9 AND 18, 1955 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 



SEP 12 1955 











S. Res. 62 


MAY 24, 26, 31, JUNE 9 AND 18, 1955 

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 

65263 WASHINGTON : 1955 

JAMBS O. EASTLAND, Mississippi 
OLIN D. JOHNSTON, South Carolina 
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 


West Virginia, Chairman 
WILLIAM LANGER, Nortli Dakota 
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois 

Subcommittee To Investigate Ju\'enile Delinquency in the United States 

ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman 


James H. Bobo, General Counsel 



statement of — p 
Burgum, Leslie R., attorney general, State of North Dakota. Bis- 
marck, N. Dak _ _ OQQ 

Egan, Father Daniel, Franciscan priest, Gr'aymoor," Garrison "n Y" " ' 70 

Karpman, Dr. Benjamin, chief psychotherapist, St. Elizabeths 

Hospital, Washington, D. C__ _ ______ ______ «n 

Thomas, Norman, New York, N. Y 01-7 

Testimony of— " ----- zi/ 

Alberts David S., accompanied by counsel, Stanley Fleishman. Los 

Angeles, Calif _' 007 

Alberts, Mrs. Violet Evelyn Stanard, Los" AngelesVCalif ~ " " ~ 39O 

Bair, Robert R., assistant United States attornev, district of Mary- 
land ~ _ -^ ... 

Barnes, Phillip I., police officer, administrativevicesquad" porno- 
graphic detail, Los Angeles Police Department, Los Angeles, Calif 

tilick Inspector Roy, head of vice squad, Police Department, Wash- 
ington, D. C _ _ _ ' JQ3 272 

^^M-\ ^*^^Seant Joseph E., Detroit Police Department," "Detroit, ' 

Butler, Lieutenant George, Dallas Police be"p"ar"tme"nt,"f)a"ira"s""fex" 

investigator for the Subcommittee .._ _ _ "' 255 

Caidin, Stanley R., attorney at law, Beverly Hills," Cali"f !"_"__ I 339 
Cavanaugh, Eugene O., chief, youth squad. New York" Cit"y "Board 

of Education, New York, N. Y 93 

Chumbris, Peter N., associate counsel, "Unite"d States Senate "s"ubcom- 

committee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency __ 46 

Deerson, William, dean of discipline, Haaren High s"chool, N"e"w 

_lork, N. Y ' _ 7g 

_ Fishman, Irving, Deputy Collector of Customs, "New" Y"o"r~k."N"Y 249 

Fodor, George, St. Petersburg, Fla I54 

Gillman, Morris, New York, N. Y _ __ _ 945 

Grimm, Clarence, Coral Gables, Fla __"___ ] 223 

Henry, Dr. George W., professor of chnical" psychiatry," CornelftTnil 

versify, college of medicine, Ithaca, N. Y___L 210 

Klaw, Irving, accompanied by counsel, Coleman Gangel," New York", 

_' 229 

Maletta, Eugene, accompanied by counsel, Leon D. Lazer, Richmond 

Hill, N. Y 175 

Miller, William J., Hollywood, Calif _""""! _ ~_~ 397 

Mishldn, Eddie, accompanied by counsel, Daniel Weiss, " Yonkers^ 

_ 158 239 

Nelson, James F., deputy district attorney," "Los" Angeles "c"o"u"n"tv ' 

Calif •" 4J3 

O'Brien, William C, Assistant Solicitor, Post" Office Department, 

accompanied by Harry J. Simon, inspector, Post Office Department, 

Washington, D. C 283 306 

Roth, Samuel, New York, N. Y "-"_I___L__I "~II__ ' 187 

Rotto, Abe, accompanied by counsel, H. Robert Levine, Bro'o'klyn, 

N. Y_ 


Rubin Abraham, accompanied by counsel, Daniel Weiss, Brooklyn, 

N. Y 149 243 260 

Sheehan, Lt. Ignatius, morals squad, Chicago Police Department, 

Chicago, 111 __ _ 124 



Testimony of — Continued ^"s® 

Shomer, Louis, accompanied by counsel, Jacob Rachstein, Brooklyn, 

N. y1 "- 178,265 

Sobel, Arthur Herman, accompanied bv counsel, Morris D. Hohrar, 

New York, N. Y 161 

Stapenhorst, Ralph E., postal inspector, Glendale, Calif 355 

Sullivan, Lt. Walter J., investigator for the District Attorney, Los 

Angeles County, Calif 392 

Tager, Mary Dorothy, Balboa, Calif 315 

Thoms, Mr. and Mrs. Robert, Rutherford, N. J 96 

Whipple, Lawrence A., director of public safety, Jersey City, N. J., 

accompanied by Sgt. Alfred Jago and Detective John Higgins, 

Jersey City Police Department, Jersey City, N. J 114 


Number and summary ofexhihit 

1. Copy of Perspectives On Delinquency Prevention, a report by Henry 

Epstein, deputy mayor to Robert F. Wagner, mayor of the city of 

New York ^ 2 

2. Copies of Senate Resolution 89, 83d Congress, 1st session; Senate 

Resolution 190, 83d Congress, 2d session; Senate Resolution 62, 
84th Congress, 1st session; and resolutions dated May 20, 1955, au- 
thorizing Senator Estes Kefauver to hold hearings ^ 44 

3. Copies of Federal Statutes Nos. 1461, 1462, 1463, and 1464 2 45 

4. Summary of State laws pertaining to obscene and pornographic ma- 

terials ^ 49 

5. Copy of the subcommittee letter sent to various police officials through- 

out the country ^ S3 

6. Copy of letter dated February 3, 1953, from Louis Stevens Saxton 

addressed to Clarence Meade Barnes, and related material ^ 62 

7. Copy of subpena dated May 19, 1955, addressed to Irving Klaw _ 2 §9 

8. Copy of a doctor's certificate concerned with the health of Louis 

Finkelstein - ^ ^1 

9 Information of Eugene Cavanagh outlining the activities of the youth 

squad from April 1, 1954, to March 31, 1955 ' 94 

10. Copy of an admission ticket to Colossal Good Time Night, March 29, 

1953 1 105 

11. Copy of a receipt from Anderson Film Rental Service, Elgin, 111 ^ ]_30 

12. Copy of the police record of Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin, from the 

Detroit Police Department, Detroit, Mich ^ 135 

13. Copy of income tax and bank statement information, 1950 through 

1954, of Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin ^ 152 

14. Copy of the stenographer's minutes of the case United States of 

America v. Harold Kantor, heard in the United States District 
Court, Southern District of New York ^ 164 

15. Stock Theft "Fence" Given Prison Term, article appearing in the 

October 26, 1937 issue of the New Haven Evening Register, New 
Haven, Conn ^ 467 

16. List of pornographic material found in the possession of Abe Rotto on 

July 29, 1954 ^ 173 

17. Copy" of an advertisement of the Atine Co., New York City, received 

by a juvenile 1°^ 

18. Advertisement and letter of transmittal concerned with obscene litera- 

ture received through the mails ^ 191 

19. Additional advertisements and letters of transmittal concerned with 

obscene literature received through the mails by several individuals. - ^ 193 

20. Newspaper clippings from several Florida papers ^ 228 

21. Copy of the 97th edition of Cartoon and Model Parade, published by 

Irving Klaw ] 233 

22. Photographs submitted by Irving Fishman ^54 



23. Samples of pornography submitted by Lieutenant Butler ^259 

24. Road map of the Northeastern United States with numerous cities 

circled alleged to have been taken from the possession of Abraham 
Rubin, alias AI Stone, by the Detroit Police Department * 263 

25. Name and address book belonging to Abraham Rubin, alias Al Stone__ ^265 

26. Copy of a subpena dated May 19, 1955, addressed to Aaron Moses 

Shapiro ^207 

27. Copy of a subpena dated May 19. 1955, addressed to Joseph Piccarellie~_ ^ 268 

28. Photograph of pornographic materials ^282 

29. List of film titles in the possession of Simon Simring ^282 

30. Three photos of indecent acts by children 4, 6, and 10 years old ^ 283 

31. Letter dated June 8, 1955, from Congressman John A. Blatnik of 

Minnesota, addressed to Mr. Peter Chumbris, associate counsel, 
United States Senate Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delin- 
quency ^291 

32. Copy of House bill No. 825, 34th North Dakota Legislative Assembly, 

prohibiting the sale, distribution, or exhibition of lewd and obscene 
matter to persons under 21 years of age ^ 301 

33. Samples of literature sent to customers by Mrs. Dorothy Tager ^324 

34. Copy of a check in the amount of $1,329.95 made payable to Stanley 

Caiden, from Mrs. Louis Tager's account at the California Bank, 

Los Angeles, Calif ^342 

35. Reporter's transcript of partial proceedings in the case of United 

States V. Roy J. Ross of the United States District Court, Southern 
District of California, March 23, 1954 ^S5^ 

36. Copy of an advertisement from Male Merchandise Mart, Hollywood 

Calif 1368 

37. Copy of an accompanying folder to the advertisement from Male 

Merchandise Mart, Hollywood, Calif ^368 

38. Copy of advertisement received by the subcommittee from Male 

Merchandise Mart, Hollywood, Calif ^369 

39. Clean-Up-The-Mails Campaign, article appearing in the March 17, 

1955, issue of the Postal Bulletin, United States Post Office Depart- 
ment -373 

photography ^381 


41. Copy of a subpena dated June 10, 1955, addressed to David S. Alberts_~_ =* 389 

42. Copy of the police record of William Miller =408 

' On file with the subcommittee. 
' Printed in the record. 


(Obscene and Pornographic Materials) 

TUESDAY, MAY 24, 1955 

United States Senate, 
subcommiitee of the committee on the judiciary 
To Invesitgate Juvenile Delinquency, 

New York, N. Y. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a. m., in room 104, 
"United States Court House, Foley Square, New York City, N. Y., 
Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman, presiding. 

Present : Senator Estes Kefauver, Senator William Langer. 

Also present : James H. Bobo, general counsel ; Peter N. Chumbris, 
associate counsel; Vincent Gaughan, special counsel; Edward Lee 
McLean, editorial director; George Martin and George Butler, con- 
sultants to the subcommittee. 

(yhairman Kefauver. Tlie subcommittee will come to order. 

This is a subcommittee of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 
established by order of the Senate. The members of the subcommittee 
are the distinguished Senator from North Dakota, Senator Langer, 
who is with us today, and who has taken a great deal of interest in 
the work of the subcommittee, and was former chairman of the full 
Committee on the Judiciary; Senator Wiley, of Wisconsin; and 
Senator Hennings, of Missouri. 

The subcommittee wishes to first express its appreciation to Mr. 
Mike Lordan, superintendent of the building, and the others who have 
been so cooperative in arranging for this courtroom; Judge Hart and 
members of the court. 

\ye are glad to again be in the great city of New York. The problem 
of juvenile delinquency which brings us here at this time deserves 
and requires the best attention and the best effort of every American 
citizen. The future of this country is irrevocably tied with our 
young people. If this is a great generation we are rearing, and I 
am firmly convinced it is, then the future of our democracy is secure. 
Yet we must face up to the problems besetting our young people. 

These 3 days of hearings will be devoted to pornographic material, 
a specialized subject within the general field of juvenile delinquency. 
This is a nationwide hearing. Later our subcommittee will return 
to New York to hold additional hearings on the broad aspects of 
juvenile delinquency ; but at this time I do want to commend the many 
fine efforts being made to remedy the problems of juvenile delinquency 
here in the Nation's largest city by public officials, churches, schools, 
and individuals. 

I have been particularly impressed by the report of Deputy Mayor 
Henry Epstein concerning all phases of juvenile delinquency here and 


his recommendations designed to correct the problems inherent in 
juvenile delinquency. 

Now I want to order Mr. Epstein's report to be printed in the 
record at this time. 

(The report above referred to, entitled "Perspectives on Delinquency 
Prevention,'' was marked "Exhibit No. 1," and is as follows :) 

Exhibit No. 1 

Perspectives on Delinquency Prevention 

(City of New York, 1955. Robert F. Wagner, mayor) 

"* « * If if.(, iffould guide hy the liglit of reason, we must let our 
minds be bold." — Louis D. Bkandeis. 

CiTT OP New York, 
Office op the Mayor, 
New York, N. Y., May 6, 1955. 
Hon. Robert F. Wagner, 

Mayor, City of Neto York, 

City Hall, New York, N. Y. 

Dear Mayor Wagner : Attached is a brief report on tbe coordination of new 
and improved programs to cope with the problem of juvenile delinquency in our 

It has only been possible to undertake a relatively brief study in this field to 
which so many have devoted a lifetime. I am, however, making a number of 
suggestions in specific areas and have indicated particular problems which merit 
special consideration in the near future. I hope, for example, to treat the whole 
matter of the courts and correctional institutions at some length in another report. 

The only expenditures to date from the $25,000 budgeted for this study have 
been 4% months' salary for my consultant and his secretary, plus less than $100 
for technical literature, supplies, etc. After our pi-inter's bill is paid, I believe 
enough money will remain to complete the report mentioned above as well as 
one on services for infants and preschool children. 

John J. Horwitz, who served as consultant on this project, was responsible 
for most of the research and field contacts. He also is to be commended for 
writing the draft of this report, laying it out and seeing it through the press. I 
wish to pay particular tribute to the rich background Mr. Horwitz brought to 
the planning of this project. His broad social science skills and his rich experi- 
ence as settlement house director, psychiatric caseworker, and community or- 
ganization specialist all contributed materially to the coherent overview so essen- 
tial in a study of this sort. 

I feel deeply indebted to former deputy city administrator .John V. Connorton 
for his invaluable assistance in coordinating the committee consultations with 
private social agencies. 

Dr. Luther Gulick, the city administrator, offered my staff office space and 
all conceivable cooperation. His friendly interest advanced the work materially. 

E.special thanks are dvie my colleagues heading up various city departments 
and agencies, welfare and civic leaders, and the many experts on various aspects 
of the delinquency problem who have given me and my staff the benefit of their 
counsel. Many helpful suggestions have also been received from scores of private 
citizens who have passed along to us their suggestions as to the causes of juvenile 
delinquency or measures which might be undertaken to cope with our problem. 
The cooperative zeal so many people have brought to this effort has been a gratify- 
ing sign of the vitality of civic spirit in our city. The fine resolution of Council 
President Abe Stark, for example, is supported in the expanded youth board 
projects of private agencies. I might add that the tenor of a number of letters 
received from young people themselves has been a great source of encouragement. 

May I emphasize in recommending the programs listed below that none are 
intended to substitute for ongoing operations in the same fields, nor should serv- 
ices be taken out of one neighborhood to provide for another. 
Very sincerely yours, 

Henry Epstein, Deputy Mayor. 



At the request of the mayor, I have during the past 8 months made a fairly- 
extensive review of the scientific literature in the juvenile delinquency field, 
and have endeavored to inform myself on current developments of interest in 
other communities, and even in foreign countries. 

Herewith are presented certain findings of fact as to the nature of the chal- 
lenge and programs which we may undertake in order to meet it. This report 
is designed to help speed planning, and to inform the public about some of the 
problems we face. In addition, in appendix V, I have listed some important 
ways each and every citizen can help tight juvenile delinquency. 

We can record many real achievements through services to children. But 
New York is a city which never has been afraid to face up to its shortcoriiings. 
I have not endeavored to produce a piece of promotion material ; attention in this 
report is focused upon many areas where our performance is less than perfect, 
sometimes less than adequate. 

We cannot feel satisfied with less than the best, especially where our children 
are concerned. In those existing programs where something vital may be want- 
ing, no lack of conscientiousness or capacity on the part of personnel involved 
should be inferred. Over the years, there may have been many reasons why 
some strategic area has been neglected. In a city as large as ours, it may also 
happen that a service eminently worthwhile in years past, today needs to be 
reconsidered and replanned. 

Our task is one to be accomplished only over a period of time. Deliberations 
today build upon work that has gone' before. This report is related to earlier 
studies : and a number of important matters are only touched uipon here, as they 
will be covered at greater length in other reports. 

My emphasis throughout, has been upon employment of public funds through 
programs in public agencies. However, there are areas where private and sec- 
tarian agencies have clearly demonstrated an ability to provide valuable services 
of a supplementary character, when public moneys are placed at their disposal. 
I recommend continuance of this pattern, along already well established lines, 
through the youth board contract program (see appendix II). Nongovern- 
mental bodies have a most important part to play in any community program. 
It is to be hoped that the fund-raising efforts of responsible private and sec- 
tarian agencies this year will permit the ambitious and highly laudable pro- 
gram expansions they projected in our joint discussions. 

A joint policy statement of private and sectarian agencies appears here as 
appendix IV. 

Certain highly important projects (which have come to my attention from 
various sources) do not seem appropriate or possible enterprises for the city 
government to undertake. These I have listed in appendix III. Should civic 
groups, service organizations, individual philanthropists, or foundations be inter- 
ested in details on any of these undertakings, my staff have prepared brief out- 
lines of possible first steps on each of them. 

I do wish, however, to present for immediate consideration 10 programs I 
believe should be acted upon without delay. You will find here, and throughout 
my report, two equally important emphases : services for more children and 
more effective service to the children we do reach. A sound approach must be 
rooted in these foundations. 


Provision of competent staff for recreational facilities already available in 
27 public-housing projects (for residents of projects and their neighbors) ; 
planning for staff in all the other projects not presently served. 

Expansion of the remedial reading program in our schools to enable children 
to get 100-cent value on the education dollar. 

Police services affecting juvenile delinquency. 

Expansion of the youth board street club project and its services to families 
and children. 

Provision of programs under youth board contract to the three areas in Man- 
hattan, Staten Island, and Queens where delinquency rates have increased alarm- 
ingly ; contracts for casework, group work and recreation services from private 
as well as public agencies. 

Reexamination of teacher rotation policies, in an effort to assure placement 
of a larger proportion of our more highly experienced teachers in "difficult" 


Parent education programs centered around informal discussion groups. 

Expansion of the co-op program which provides students an opportunity to 
complete their high school education while working half time in private industry 
at prevailing wages ; more guidance services. 

Inauguration of training services tlirough the youth board to equip its own 
personnel to do an even more effective job, and to serve other departments which 
have approached the youth board for this kind of help; a fellowship study 
program for adding to the professional skills of workers on key projects in various 
citv youth-serving agencies. 

Provision for small, toi>-caliber units to do overall planning and to be respon- 
sible for assessment. 

Before detailing the value of the 10 programs mentioned above, it is important 
that some general considerations be clarified. 

May I remark at the outset tliat juvenile delinquency is neither a new prob- 
lem nor one we can expect to meet with temporary expedients. 

With so much talk of juvenile delinquency in the air and scare headlines all 
too frequently in the press, we are apt to forget the 97 juveniles in 100 who 
do not come in conflict with the law. 

When the word "teen-ager" comes up, how often do we think of the nation- 
wide science talent search, in which our students, less than 4 percent of the 
Nation's high school population, regularly walk off with 20 percent or more cf 
the awards. 

How loud did the sirens blow when a teenager in or town a year ago won 
first prize for school-or-community life photographs in the national contest with 
27,000 entries? And how many iieople have heard about the youtli group here 
that volunteers regular work sessions adding to a library for the blind which 
houses the Nation's largest collection of hand-transcribed books? 

Here are a few headlines which will seem more familiar : "Eleven-Year-Old 
Steals Teacher's Purse," "Bjys Bind and Kob Playmates," "Schoolgirls 
Sweethearts, 16 and 17, Fight a Duel." These are the sort that have always 
made news. But here's one from the month before : "Legislator Aids Boy" — the 
story is about Assemblyman Robert F. Wagner, who volunteered his services to 
defend a 17-year-old he believed wrongly accused of shooting his employer. The 
year, for all those stories, 1905, exactly 50 years ago. 

It seems to me we would do well to lender awhile on the manner in which 
public opinion today may affect law enforcement as respects juveniles. It 
would come as a real shock to hear the casual suggestion that three men stand- 
ing on the corner talking ought not to be on the street, but change the men to 
17-year-olds and it would almost seem they had lost their rights as citizens. 
Or think of a driver who has run through a red light; when he receives Ms 
ticket, we think of him as a traffic violator, not a criminal. Let the driver be 
a youth, however, and there's a buzz of voices immediately against the "juvenile 

This may seem a trival consideration, but it is not trival to one who feels a 
door has l^een slannned in his face, ^''ew York has always taken pride in its. 
young people : we have always felt this was the city, of all cities, that opened 
wide the door to citizenship. Yet today it almost seems as though no one is a 
citizen until he has attained the magical age of 21 ; and all the unfortunates 
who must wait the years until they attain that enviable distinction are high 
handedlv placed on continuous probation. 

We cannot have it both ways : Either our young people are a welcome part 
of the New York community, or they are some curious alien breed, shut out, 
marking time till their 21st birthday. 

We in the city administration share a common concern with the community's 
religious leaders. There is a need tor reawakening our young people's appre- 
ciation for higher values. We must labor, each in his own fashion, to open 
wide a door to the world of satisfaction through social responsibility. 

As adults we would do well to reflect upon our own behavior when we warn 
youth against false values. And we would do well to think about the ways we 
can demonstrate, on a day-to-day basis, that the good life is really a reward- 
ing one. 

Much has been made of the unfortunate impact a particular type of publication 
is making upon our children and young people. It seems to me that it is unjust 
to focus criticism upon a single influence of this sort. 

We live in times of world conflict and the threat of war. Wherever the child 
turns there is violence and talks of violence. To a stranger crime and sex might 
almost seem the sinister preoccupations of our people. The child grows up in 


a world of tension, not of his makinj;'. Yet 97 children in 100 — even more if we 
confine our attention to the delinquents who are brought to court — make a "go" 
of it in a world that seems pretty confusing even to sophisticated adults. 

The example we set is not always the best. There have been reports in these 
I)ast months of a tax authority who committed suicide while under indictment 
for income-tax evasion; three different schoolteachers (not of this city) who 
sought si)ecial consideration when arrested for driving past a halted school bus; 
the reader can add examples of his own. We have our Schweitzers and our 
Einsteins, our Helen Kellers, and our Marion Andersons, true. But it is well 
to dwell a moment upon the observation of the director of one of our better 
juvenile institutions "adults deceive each other and children deceive the adults." 

Our Nation takes pi'ide in the fact that our press, lilms, radio, television, etc., 
are not under Government control. Private initiative in the great media of 
information has demonstrated time and again that it can make a responsible 
social contribution in periods of crisis. These times cryingly demand imagina- 
tion and leadership from those eiltrusted with the media. I believe there are 
many who have already perceived the challenge and are moving forward as 
responsible citizens. The task of glamorizing socially constructive activities — of 
better informing the public as to the nature of juvenile delinquency — is a great 
one. To reacli beyond the glorification of crime and the confusion of moral 
values must be more than an aspiration — we look to the industry for positive 


In reviewing studies of the juvenile delinquency problem, probably the clear- 
est picture that emerges is the difficulties commonly inherent in the home 
situation. Now in commenting upon juvenile delinquency, it must be remem- 
bered that our information pertains almost exclusively to youngsters who have 
been apprehended and appear for disposition before public authority. Further- 
more, in pointing up the shortcomings of the family setting in which so many 
of these young offenders have been reared, we are often uninformed as to the 
number of children who, confronted by identical handicaps, have made "go" of 
social living. 

Withal, there appears to be a consistent pattern of deprivation, which I believe 
any fair-minded person would agree creates a real hazard to the growing child. 

There are social handicaps which exert a real pressure upon youngsters from 
underprivileged neighl)orhoods ; overcrowded, unhealthy tenement living, dis- 
crimination, grinding poverty, lack of recreation facilities, an atmosphere of 
crime in the very air they breathe. But as Prof. Gordon Allport, of Harvard 
University, has observed (175, introduction), it is the emotional tone of the 
home, not the plumbing, that is likely to prove a decisive determinant of juve- 
nile delinquency. 

We may be on the threshold of a greater understanding of the nature of this 
disorder. Prof. Sheldon Glueck and Dr. Eleanor Glueck believe they have de- 
veloped a technique for recognizing, by the characteristics of family psychology, 
just which children are growing up in the most hazardous surroundings. If 
their predictive measures prove reliable, we could ascertain in advance pre- 
cisely which children (and which families) are in need of preventive services — 
before serious trouble ever develops. 

Many delinquent children have parents who can truly be said to poison the 
atmosphere of the home. Marital conflict between the parents is common, indeed 
one autliority suggests that tensions in a home where the parents are deeply 
dissatisfied with one another are more injurious to children than a broken home 
would be (28). But studies of comparable groups of children have shown there 
are close to twice as many from broken homes in the delinquent as in the 
nondelinquent group (28). The Gluecks' recent research found I delinquent 
in 4 came from families where self-interest exceeded group interest ; this was 
true of less than 1 in 100 children in their nondelinquent control group (67). 

Children who turn up as delinquents are also more likely to have been set a 
criminal example at home. The study mentioned above, showed delinquents 
twice as likely as nondelinquents to have had a father, brothei*, or sister already 
in conflict with the law — and three times as likely to have had a mother with a 
criminal record (67). Another researcher reporting on youths discharged from 
a truant school but subsequently charged with felonies, found 4 out of 5 were 
reared in families in which another member had a criminal record (28). 

Parents' attitudes toward children, and children's conceptions of their parents 
differ significantly in comparable groups of delinquents and nondelinquents. 


The Gluecks report 60 percent of their delinquents felt their fathers were indif- 
ferent or hostile; this was true of only 1 in 5 among the nondelinquents (226). 

Delinquent* felt their mothers were not deeply concerned about their welfare 
in 8 cases out of 10; only 3 mothers out of 10 among the nondelinquents (226). 
Of the groups studied, one-fifth of the luothers worked, mothers of delinquents 
as well as mothers of nondelinquents. Nevertheless while 7 mothers of delin- 
quents in 10 were found giving "wholly unsuitable" supervision to their sons, 
among the nonedlinquent boys,^ only 1 mother in 10 failed in this resi^ect (226). 

I do not wish to bog down in statistics, but mention ought to be made of 
one more highly illuminating inquiry. Close to 20 years ago a volume was 
published examining the differences between delinquents and nondelinquent 
youngsters reared in the same houses and families. Healy and Bronner (86) 
reported that the nondelinquents found home relationships more satisfying 
than delinquents in the same family did. And seven times as many delin- 
quent children were found to have had emotional disturbances in their relations 
with others, mostly in the home. The delinquents were unhappy, discontented 
youngsters, shortchanged in some fashion as compared with their own non- 
delinquent brothers and sisters. 

The same story is repeated by child-guidance workers, police, probation officers, 
social workers, teachers, pastors. The child who becomes a delinquent is more 
likely than not to come from a home where he is neglected, rejected, or subject 
to harsh and even unjust punishment. In a large proportion of eases, one 
parent is missing ; and when both parents are in the home, in case after case 
it has been found the child is suffering because of continual bickering or open 
violence between father and mother. 

In situations such as these, and where parental discipline is irregular or 
completely neglected, the child will tend to strike out for himself. And there 
is every likelihood he will strike out in the wrong direction. 

It is only with the very greatest rarity that a thorough examination of the life 
history of a detected delinquent will fail to uncover pressures (psychological 
or social) which may reasonably be regarded as the roots of maladjustment. 

In our understanding of particular situations, there is undoubtedly a certain 
gap between the commonly accepted causative factors and delinquent acts on 
the part of an individual. Nonetheless, certain social situations can with con- 
siderable assurance be said to constitute fertile soil for delinquency. 

To recapitulate, these are : rejection, tyranny, abuse, frustration, failure, 
limitation of opportunity, conflict of cultures. 

A child can grow into a socially integrated adult even in a home where 
a brother or sister is shown preference. A child can grow into a socially inte- 
grated adult even though deprived of a parent's love. A child can grow into a 
socially integrated adult despite discrimination by reason of race. A child can 
grow into a socially integrated adult despite slum environment with all its 
deprivations. Even a child who is brutally abused, or punished unjustly can grow 
into a socially integrated adult. 

It is most important that these facts not be ignored. But we do know that 
a cumulation of deprivation and destructive experiences leaves a mark. The child 
reared under such conditions is in hazard ; where the negative forces multiply, 
the hazard is increased. 

Frequent mention will be made in this report of the situation of children and 
youth in deteriorated or deteriorating neighborhoods. Let it be clearly under- 
stood at the outset that delinquents are found in families more fortunately 
circumstanced as well. 

It is a fact that the larger part of our juvenile court cases come from among 
the poorest segment of the city's population. It seems most likely that this is 
due to lack of home and neighborhood advantages (material, social, and 
phychological). But another consideration is fashions in delinquent behavior, 
which may have the outcome of more crimes of a violent character, say, in one 
sort of neighborhood and more crimes of stealth in another. Finally, there are 
the very important differentials in financial ability of parents to make private 
arrangements for the care and treatment of problem youngsters. 

Ours is a Nation dedicated to the proposition that all people should be accorded 
an equal opportunity to make their way in the world, that a man should be judged 
on his merits. Reflect upon the measure of our failure if I report that an out- 

- Juvenile court records list 3 or 4 times as many boys as girls, however girls' social 
histories reflect similar problems. In my own repeat, "boys," in most instances may also 
be read "children." 


standing scholar in the field contends that "the permanent factor which perhaps 
contributes more than any other to the creation of delinquency (is) bad housing." 
As it happens, our achievements in this field and the nature of the road 
ahead lie beyond the province of this report. But I would like to add one 
more homely example of the kind of environmental pressures affecting children in 
New York, 195.5. A well-informed ofiicial* estimates on the basis of reported 
cases that in our city some 25,000 human beings — mostly babies— are bitten by 
rats every year. It is hardly nece^^jary to ask oneself how such an occurrence 
affects the outlook on life of the victim — and his family. 

Perhaps one final note on environmental deprivations will suflice. This story 
is told by a social worker who has a most distinguished record of service over 
the decades in some of our more underprivileged neighborhoods : 

"(There are neighborhoods characterized by) acceptance of the inevitability 
of adult crime, juvenile delinquency * * * racial tensions, gang warfare * * *. 
In such a neighborhood I was told by a 15-year-old boy who had just stabbed' 
another boy with a penknife, that 'you could get a good paid job sticking people 
if you got good at it.' That was 25 years ago, and that neighborhood is worse 
today, not better. The bootleggers of prohibition have given way to the narcotics 


In devising programs to meet the challenge of juvenile delinquency, we are 
confronted with a major dilemma of approach at the outset. Many would 
subscribe to the philosophy of a social agency which has been notably successful 
in its work with every sort of delinquent over a period of more than 50 years : 

"llie delinquent (is) primarily a products of social forces, of disorganized 
homes and unhealthy neighborhood conditions. He is in the main a deprived 
youngster whose emotional needs have been insufficiently satisfied. His be- 
havior is a reaction to his life experience." 

Others contend that a crime is a crime and that anyone not a mental incom- 
petent should l)e made to answer for his actions. They contend that a "senti- 
mental" approach is interpreted as weakness on the part of society, that punish- 
ment is the sure deterrent. 

But the facts simply do not support this latter view. 

"* * * in all the reliable 20th century studies on the causation of delinquency 
and crime, it is almost impossible to find a reference to leniency of punishment 
as a cause. * * * The history of punishment shows that there is no necessary 
correlation between the severity of punishment and the incidence of 
crime. * * *" 

There would seem to be a need to steer a sure course between what most 
thoughtful citizens might characterize as the "sentimental" and the "revenge" 
approaches to this question. Mr. Justice Cardozo many years ago observed 
that the justice due the ofiender is due the community as well. Law is the 
adhesive that binds our society together ; it is not to be violated lightly. 

Actually, the most "moderate" of the experts in the field seem to feel that 
punishment can play a constructive role in rehabilitation, if it is applied plan- 
fully and for helpful rather than vengeful purposes. Unfortunately, many 
people believe that juvenile delinquency is tlie evil fruit of a "spare the rod" 
philosophy. There certainly can be no doubt that there are children who, as a 
result of having been spoiled, are completely regardless of the rights of others. 
A larger group of juvenile delinquents, however, and a group more typical of 
these problem youngsters by and large, have experienced punishment— and cor- 
poral punishment at that. They have probably had too much such treatment 
ratber than too little. 

Recent studies show that one-fifth to one-third of all our nondelinquent children 
and young people experience physical punishment at home. A study of delin- 
quent children on the other hand, shows twice as many receiving physical punish- 
ment. The superintendent of a midwestern reform school remarked to a 
visiting journalist that he used the pnddle because 90 percent of his boys reported 
they'd been whipped at home. And the reporter^ very acutely observed that 
"apparently whipping failed to act as a deterrent for 90 percent of the boys who 
ended up in this institution. It seems to me that there is a lesson here to reflect 
upon as we proceed with our planning. 

s C'larles Abrams. 
* Albert Deutsch. 


In my own thinking, I would be inclined to go along with the joint public- 
private service bureau which operates in the offices of our district attorneys. 
This organization contends that even youthful offenders should not be regarded as 
completely helpless victims of social forces. The offender has played an im- 
portant part in whatever train of events has culminated in his conflict with the 
law. And he has a part to play— in a very real sense, an independent part — in 
the process of finding a constructive place for himself in the world. 

"Nobody can mold anybody else's character because a human is not a lump 
of putty. He is a living' being— he grows * * *. The impulses which may have 
taken a vicious form and brought boys into conflict with authority are basically 
the energies of life. It is within the realm of the possible to redirect these 
energies so that they will no longer destroy but instead serve the better interests 
of (young people) and of society * * *. (This redirection) is an achievement of 
the youth himself. His counsellors help by making his problem clearer to him, 
by encouragement and suggestion. But when the change takes place, it is the 
individual concerned who makes the effort." 

Before proceeding to discussion of the particular programs I have suggested for 
high-priority consideration, a few more general observations may not be out of 


While I shall not discuss the matter at length in this report, the problem 
of repeated delinquency, unreformed offenders, is a crucial one. When a wrong- 
doer is caught, society has an opportunity — in cases where he is not executed or 
imprisoned for life — to set him on the right path. The ultimate test of cor- 
rectionel institutions is the recidivism rate; do offenders reform, or does the 
correctional treatment leave them uncorrected. 

There is beginning to be a highly illuminating body of literature in answer 
to that question. And some people may be surprised to learn that in study 
after study of juvenile delinquents, it is the institutions with the social workers, 
the psychologists, the special teachers — the institutions that talk about "trying 
to understand and help each boy" — it is these institutions that prove to have 
the smaller proportion of children reappearing in our courts and police stations. 

Nationwide studies, studies in Chicago and in Boston, show that 6 de- 
linquents in 10 (in some places more), turn up again, following institutionali- 
zation. But 2 really treatment-oriented centers here in New York report less 
than 3 in 10 of their boys turn up in court after being released. Dr. 
Frank Curran (who served the New York City children's courts as a psychiatrist 
at Bellevue Hospital) reports that of his first .300 juvenile cases there,^ only 
1 in 10 had reappeared in the courts for antisocial acts, 11/2 to 2 years later. 

In the case of those who have to be removed from circulation for a period, 
the case seems clear. Our interest is cutting down on delinquent behavior for 
the sake of the community, and with an eye to a useful, satisfying, socially 
accepted life for the adjudged delinquent. If our interest in short is rehabilita- 
tion rather than vengeance we are now in a position to say that reeducation 
must go on alongside the temporary loss of liberty that the offender must not 
merely be punished but counseled and helped. Of "correction" and correctional 
institutions it is truly possible to say "by their fruits ye shall know them." 

A "hard core" of juvenile delinquency? 

Our city is growing; there is an ever larger crop of youngsters entering the 
delinquency-hazard age bracket, 5-20 years.* 

In 19.50 one-fifth of our population fell into this age group. But by 1960, 
with the war babies and the postwar babies growing up, 1 New Yorker in every 
4 will be between 5 and 20.' 

If juvenile delinquency is a problem now, we really have something to insure 
against, with regard to the future. For if the delinquency rate were to stop 
rising, if we could merely hold our own, the number of delinquents in the larger 
youth population — at the present delinquency rate (roughly 2i^ i)ercent) — would 
by 1960 stand 9,000 higher than the present figure. 

^ Tn 85 percent of which, the courts concurred with psychiatric counsel. 

« If 5 seems a tender age to list as the lower limit. I misht mention the fact that in the 
Gluecks research, more than 44 percent of their 500 delinquents displayed clear signs of 
antisocial behavior between the ages of 5 and 7. 

' City Planning Commission estimates. 


A possibly fruitful line of inquiry in determining just where preventive 
services miglit most suitably be directed, is suggested by two recent studies in 
St. Paul, Minn, and in San Mateo County (around San P^raucisco). This 
research concentrated on the proportion of social problems presented by a 
relatively small number of families in each community. The San Mateo report, 
for example, reported that 1,2G7 families, only IVa percent of the total number, 
accounted for every (detected and reported) case of juvenile misbehavior as well 
as about half of the petty crimes and misdemeanors in the whole community. 
Findings along the same lines are reported by parallel welfare research projects 
in Maryland and Minnesota. 

If our own youth-board data are analyzed along roughly the same lines, 
focussing upon the relatively small number of delinquents who appear on the 
register more than once, a figure for New York of the same order of magnitude 
is suggested. The hard core of the juvenile delinquency problem may well 
be found in just a few thousand families here, out of a total of close to a 
million families with children aged 5 to 20. 

A study of the actual dimensions of this small but crucial aspect of the 
problem may open the way to new approaches to the challenge of delinquency. 
The idea certainly seems worthy of the most serious consideration in our 
overall planning. But it must be well understood that working with the seg- 
ment of the population considered here means working with those presenting 
the thorniest problems : people often demoralized, hopeless, long and deeply 
entangled in a multitude of social problems, people often suspicious and hostile 
toward both officials and social agencies. These are the uncooperative, the 
unresponsive, the cases with poor prospects. But they are people who badly 
need help, and people who present a formidable problem to the community 
at large, draining resources from a variety of channels both as criminals and 
as chronic dependents. The particular group to which I refer includes families 
known at one time or another to a very large number of welfare agencies. It 
cannot in any sense be regarded as identical with the welfare department 
caseload, the overwhelming majority of whom are good citizens dependent 
through no fault of their own. 


In c(msidering which programs we should underwrite, there is an important 
word to be said about conserving public funds. For one thing, our endeavor 
should be to channel what money we do have into programs where the largest 
possible proportion of it gets to the firing line. 

We should, however, be prepared to reexamine oi)erations that seem promis- 
ing, after a time has passed. Careful assessment and factfinding programs 
should he built into our various activities in this area, as we embark upon 
them.' This is a task calling for scientific know-how, it cannot be adequately 
handled by mei-e administrative procedure. I am therefore recommending an 
overall coordinated study project in addition to factfinding in particular agencies. 

To undertake a course of action without a positive knowledge that it will 
succeed is unfortunately a not-uncommon necessity. In our present situation 
we cannot mark time. But to muddle along indefinitely without even trying 
to ascertain whether we were moving in the direction of a solution, would be 
unpardonable. "Practice cannot and should not wait upon research, nor should 
research be delayed until practice is well established. We shall be most likely 
to discover how to prevent delinquency if research is undertaken coordinately 
with the development of new measures and the refinement of old ones, if research 
and practice are conceived as inseparable parts of a single process." 


A thorough-going preventive program that would attack juvenile delinquency 
at the most basic level might include operations liaving to do with housing, 
employment, family living .standards, social discrimination. And even the most 
ambitious program, we must realize, can be expected rather to diminish delin- 
quency than to abolish it. We are no more likely completely to prevent delin- 
quency than we are to abolish adult crime. 

^ Notp in this conneotlon the youth hoard's research project to find out whether we can 
spot delinquents before they get into trouble, and how effective our help proves to be. 
This Is a follow-up on tlie Ghiecks' study mentioned above. 



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In presenting these priority programs, then, I am proposing merely a munber 
of rehitively small-scale projects, designed to meet the challenge in some very 
different ways. AH seem to be pointed in a promising direction ; in a sense, each 
program stands on its own, but in another sense, they are complementary. 

These approaches are among tlie more promising at the present stage of our 
knowledge. I present them in a tirm belief they have the greatest likelihood 
of success. But even those that seem the most sensible offer no gilt-edge guai-anty. 

For example, I am endorsing recreation programs through oiir public hoiising 
autliority, in the imblic scools, through the youth board (private agency contracts, 
etc.). I have endorsed these three programs in the belief they will offer indis- 
pensible services to large numbers of youngsters who might otherwise have to do 

But we cannot depend upon recreation alone to do the job. Despite our best 
wishes, tliere are complications: (1) Children can participate at length in the 
the best of recreation programs, yet have plenty of time in odd hours to get 
into mischief, if they're so inclined; (2) recreation programs can reach half the 
children, tlii'ee-quarters of the cldldren in a neighborhood, yet fail to include 
precisely the ones who arc headed for trouble. I can recall one authority 
remarking ujon the fact that he never liad known a member of a particular 
youth organization to have turned up as a delinquent. Now, he meant to call 
attention to the value of the organization in preventing delinquency, but he 
may actually have only pointed out that the organization simply failed to reach 
the kind of boy wlio got into trouble. 

I have digressed to point out the possible weaknesses of a kind of program in 
which I really have great faith. My intention was not a confuse the issue but 
to liring to the reader's attention the very imprecise state of our knowledge as to 
what may really sei-ve to cut down on delinquency. Every one of the 10 priority 
programs detailed in the following pages has already been well tried in the field 
and seems to be meeting a vital need. 1 am convinced that neither parent 
education, nor club work, nor school jirograms, nor youth police alone can solve 
our problem. Together, however, they piece our a fairly inclusive pattern of 
attack upon the variety of anti-social acts we call juvenile delinquency. 

Recreation and community programs in piiMic liousinfj 

Some 78,000 child live in only 27 of New York's public housing projects. 
In order to provide for full utilization of existing community recreation facilities 
in these buildings, I have recommended adoption of a $20o 513 per annum staff- 
ing program developed with the collaboration of Chairman Philip Cruise of the 
housing authority. This, I am happy to say, was appropriated March 25, 1955. 

Six facilities will be operated as extensions of settlement house programs, 
two by the authority itself, 19 by the bureau of community education of our 
public schools. 

Asked for his reaction to this proposal, Professor Sheldon Glueck of the 
Harvard Law School, regarded my many as probably the foremost authority 
on juvenile delinquency wrote: 

"I think you are definitely working in the right direction. My only suggestion 
as to the budget request is that perhaps it would point out that the proposed 
community facilities cou'd be of value not only for the children, but for the 
parents. One of the basic differences between delinquents and nondelinquents 
is the relative infrequency with which the families of the former engage in 
group recreation. The provision of leadership for the proposed community 
centers should stimulate the restoration of a long lost and highly social value — ■ 
family-group recreational activities both in and out of the centers. 

Another suggestion that might strengthen the appeal of the budget requests 
would be that the proposed community centers might also be used as places 
where troubled parents could go for consultations and guidance regarding 
the emotional and behavioral problems of children. It could be provided, in 
collaboration with child guidance clinics, to have such consultation services 
supplied once or twice a week at the centers." 

These additional facilities will be made available as fast as this program can 
be put into operation. It should be noted that the cost of year-round program 
in these centers all over the city, serving 191,400 of our citizens (78,000 of them 
children) " is relatively insignificant, in view of the kind of job we know can 
be done by skilled leaders. These services (housed in already available plant) 

® To these should be added those served in the surrounding neighborhood. 
65263—55 2 




▲ sTArrcD BY BUREAU or 







Avill cost the city no more than the operating expense of a single large-scale 
tacility which would hardly he in a position to provide for so large a number. 

This program, a beginning, should be folhnved by like programs in other public 
housing projects on a selective neighborhood need basis. Provision of staffs for 
middle-income projects, for example, is presently under consideration. 

Remedial readbuj 

Reading retardation is one of the special handicaps often associated with 
juvenile delinquency. The retarded reader is unable to meet other children on 
equal terms since he is materially handicapped in the area of activity that con- 
sumes the largest single block of his waking hours. As he moves into the higher 
grades ability to read becomes essential to any other kind of learning — text- 
books and other printed material become the major tool. 

The child who can't make a "go" of things in school gets more and more Into a 
rut of failure and frustration. He becomes insecure, hostile, rebellious. A mid- 
western school official writes : 

"As to the question of relationship between reading disability and what is 
<'alled juvenile delinquency, there is no question in my mind. When children 
are required to perform with textbooks for 5 hours of the day, they have to be 
at least moderately successful. When they are not, the tension and strain of 
fruitless effort, aggravated by the censure of the school, becomes intolerable and 
the kids will compensate. They may do so by heaving rocks through windows 
or punching other kids, but when these outlets pale they have to move on to 
more spectacular and undesirable behavior * * * Problem children who have 
been given reading skills generally cease to be behavior problems when they are 
released from the clinics." 

The bureau of child guidance in our own public-school system estimates that : 

"Two-thirds of the children referred (for problems of various sorts) show 
some degree of retardation in reading * * * fully one-fifth show a severe reading 
handicap * * * It is highly probable that the proportion of children with read- 
ing handicaps among * * * truants and delinquents would prove to be higher 
than 20 percent * * * systematized individual and small-group instruction for 
these children often overcomes this handicap and reestablishes a degree of con- 
fidence in themselves which can do much to facilitate their readjustment." 

The board of education personnel who know this field agree that : "failure in 
reading accounts more than any other single factor for behavior problems, 
truancy, and general school failure." 

Chief Justice John Warren Hill of our children's court contends : "It 
has been shown conclusively that there is a definite link between * • * reading- 
retardation and delinquency." Reading difficulties were reported for 75 percent 
of the delin(iuents in the nonschool part of children's court; of the boys in 
detention at Youth House, 85 i>ercent are handicapped by being unable to read 
books appropriate to their grade in school.^" 

This is no small scale challenge. As of 4 years ago, 35 percent of our students 
entering academic high schools and 80 percent of those entering vocational high 
schools were a year or more retarded in reading (joint State-city study). 

In June 1954, 20,000 New York City children, from the fourth to the sixth grade 
alone, showed a reading retardation of 2 years or more. 

More than half of 55,000 New York City eighth graders examined a few years 
ago were below grade in reading ability, and 1 in 5 failed even to score at sixth 
grade level. 

Our public schools are presently providing "remedial reading teachers" for 
less than 20 percent of the children who are handicapped by major reading dis- 
abilities. Four children in five have to "make do" with regular classroom re- 

Only 137 of 553 grade schools have a "remedial reading teacher." There is 
no developed program, centrally staffed for the junior high schools. Any remedial 
reading work in the high school is strictly on the initiative of the individual 

In grade schools the "remedial reading teachers" (who have helped many 
children and are a source of valuable coutfsel to other teachers) are almost all 
regular classroom i)ersonnel who have had 2 weeks of in-service training." 

'"Tills compjucs with Traxlor's study indicatiii!.' only 10 percent of the Nation's .school 
population reqnirps wppcial help because of retardation In readlnjr. 

" It .should be recognized that many have gone on to secure certain training beyond the 


Authorities outside our school system feel that it takes a year's or 2 years' train- 
ing to acquire real competence in coping with the variety of problems presented 
by retarded readers. 

Although reading retardation is commonly associated with emotional prob- 
lems, it is the rare case served by remedial reading staff in which the bureau 
of child guidance is also involved. 

There is an urgent need for expansion of the volume of remedial teaching avail- 
able in our schools." And there is a need, too, for adding a number of fully quali- 
fied specialists to provide intensive services for children with major conflicts 
in their approach to school work. The coaching job that present staff contributes 
is a creditable one, but there are many cases where coaching is not enough. 

Reading disability is most commonly associated with boredom with school and 
general maladjustment. While native intelligence is about the same for both 
boys and girls, reading retardation (like delinquent behavior) is found far more 
commonly in boys. Since there is good reason to presume that emotional rather 
than purely intellectual obstacles are involved, service in this field cannot be 
carried on single-handed by classroom teachers, no matter what in-service helps 
are made available to them. Wherever a remedial reading operation is offered, 
it realistically must provide for adequate social work and psychological services 
on a "built-in" basis. Employment of such personnel should not be at the 
expense of bureau of child guidance services. 

To place on remedial reading teacher in every school having 30 or more eli- 
gible children would require at least 100 additional positions. If fully quali- 
fied specialists are not recruited for this work, there should at least be a psy- 
chologist and a social worker as consultants to the reading teachers; 1 such 
team with each of the 24 assistant superintendents.''' 

Superintendent of Schools Jansen is agreed on the importance of focusing 
efforts upon reading. As a matter of fact, an attack upon reading problems has 
been chosen by the school authorities as a No. 1 objective for the next academic 

The board of education budgeted expansion centers about an imaginative sum- 
mer program (integrating coaching in reading with a recreation approach) and 
"reading clinics" so small as to be of a demonstration character. The two under- 
takings combined were budgeted at $48,000, scarcely more than one one-hundredth 
of 1 percent of next year's school expenditures. A larger commitment would 
seem desirable. I would in fact go beyond the board of education's modest 
request. So vital do I consider this activity that I would strongly urge at least 
150 added reading teachers and specialists, and combined summer reading and 
recreation programs on a substantial scale. A start should be made promptly." 

Police services and juvenile delinquency 

I have reviewed with Police Commissioner Adams the role of the police in 
meeting the challenge of juvenile delinquency. We see eye to eye on the impor- 
tance of adequate provisions for law enforcement. Our city must dedicate itself 
to a reign of law and order, and youth who think they are outside limitations 
which the rest of society accepts have got to learn the facts of life. 

But the law does not survive by force alone. And the police have a real con- 
tribution to make beyond deterrence, enforcement, apprehension, detection. We 
are returning to the good days of "the officer on the beat," and the police officer 
on the beat is as likely a man as any to know just which kids are headed for 
trouble. There are situations where a friendly interest will "turn the trick,'' 
others where a judicious word to parents will help set a youngster straight. 

In some situations, however, a good deal more than incidental interest or a 
few well-chosen words are called for. And while force may clamp down the 
lid for a while, I am convinced it can never solve problems in the long run. 
There are boys, and girls, too, who can be set straight even after the first trans- 
gression. But setting them straight may take more time than an officer on 
street patrol can give, and oftentimes a little highly specialized understanding 
is needed as well. This is, I believe, where a police unit such as the juvenile 
aid bureau could come into the pictuj-e. 

1= At present, despitp .in increase in the number of pupils, the number of "remedial read- 
ins: teachers" is one-fifth lower than it was in 1947. 

" At present there are no such personnel at all assigned to this program. 

14 The cost of the program outlined above would be about .');7.')0,000 per annum. This, 
however, does not provide more than one teacher for schools having large numbers of 
retarded readers. 




IN 3"». A'" & 5" YEABS ONLY. I.Q-5.«90 ONLY. 



Replying to an inquiry in 1952, of members of the International Association 
of Chiefs of Police, every one of the 20 reporting for American cities of over 
500,000 population had officers of whom special qualifications were required, 
assigned to work with juveniles. These are policemen who can make 
social investigations of sorts, as well as criminal investigations. All our great 
cities have special policemen and policewomen who understand young people, 
who can be friendly and who can be firm — police who bring to their assignment a 
groundwork in psychology — officers who know which agencies in the community 
are best in a position to help a youngster headed for trouble, before catastrophe 
engulfs him.^'' This mission involves something more than surveillance of bars 
and dancehalls. 

Our own juvenile aid bureau personnel must all have served at least a year 
in the precincts ; almost all of them have had special schooling in the social 
sciences. This arm of the force has a vital job to do in explaining the law and 
the police to young troublemakers. JAB patrolmen are in a position to make 
immeasurably easier the job of the pastor, the settlement club leader, the school- 
teacher — yes, and the parent." 

JAB followups on juveniles not arrested (probably the major service JAB 
renders the rest of the force) were up by 19 percent last year. But during the 
same period, personnel available for service in the field dropped by 2 percent. 

JAB at present is without units in almost half the divisions in the city." 
From sunset to dawn the Bureau is such a skeleton that there is practically no 
JAB. If we were to staff our JAB to a level where half the cities in the country 
were ahead of us in number of juvenile officers per 100,000 population, JAB 
strength would be 2S0. I hope New York eventually will be above average. 

Commissioner Adams recognizes the valuable work done by JAB officers. The 
accompanying map, showing incidence of youth offenses in the city of New 
York, is based upon data supplied by JAB from its records and knowledge of 
conditions.'** But the commissioner and top level police department staff do not 
feel that they have sufficient adequate and reliable data on the work of JAB 
and youth patrolmen to warrant a present citywide expansion of such forces. 
Where adult crime has dropped sharply as a result of the experiment in pro- 
viding a larger number of oflBcers to particular precints, a corresponding result 
has, at least outwardly, been evident in juvenile offenses in the same areas. 
The commissioner is convinced that he must, in justice to his duty to the city, 
concentrate on basic police protection problems. Yet he is sufficiently convinced 
of the inseparable interrelationship of youthful offenses and criminal activities 
generally, not to abandon the work of the JAB and youth patrolmen at this time. 

Commission; 1- Adams and I have agreed that the work of the JAB'" should 
be put to an intensive test and study in. say, 4 areas in which the incidence 
of juvenile offenses is greatest. Controlled observation of results is planned 
over a period of 5 years (a maximum figure). The roles of both JAB and youth 
patrolmen in the police department are presently undergoing review and ap- 
praisal. This control period will permit an evaluation on which to base conclu- 
sions for citywide expansion, or a transfer of this phase of community work to 
some other agency. Such experimentation and close observation will cost less 
than an overall program in this field for the entire city. 

I believe that while Commissioner Adams' experiment is in progress, provision 
should be made for enlisting the services of civilian specialists to make available 
to the Department useful approaches from related fields. Mr. Adams is, of 
course, interested in evaluating the effectiveness of a youth-police operation 
that is no "strawman." I know that he will cooperate in every way with the 
professors on the overall assessment unit which will integrate factfinding with 
reference to operations of all agencies working in the juvenile deliquency field. 

'= Every one of the units in cities of over 500,000 poinilation is affiliated with at least 
one community iilannine or coordinating ajrency (such as welfare and health council). 

^0 I believe that specially trained police personnel can make a unique contribution in 
working directly with parents, perhaps on a block-by-block basis. But a program along 
such lines may' have to be deferred pending completion of the study process mentioned 

1' .Juvenile aid bureau units arc assi-rnrd responsibilities which cover the entire city. 
However, as JAB is not organized on a divisional basis, most units must serve two or more 
divisions, rei-'nrdless of the division in which they are located. 

18 Comparisons are in terms of the number of actions per precinct. These figures are not 
ad.iusted for differences in the size of youth population, which varies from precinct to 
precinct: delinquency statistics computed "per 1.000 youth" are presented on the map 
showing youth board data. 

1" With which should, I believe, be combined that of the youth patrolmen. 




5-20 YEARS 


; 'Youthful Offender' 




I regret to report that while drug addicts have disappeared (or have been pretty 
well driven underground) in our schools, there is every reason to believe that 
narcotics still represent a major problem in the juvenile field and addiction is on 
the increase.''" A large majority of our youthful drug users come from neigh- 
borhoods where narcotics are more readily available and represent the poorest 
educated youths. Interestingly enough, it appears that although most of the 
addicts are found in high delinquency areas, there are certain areas of equally 
high delinquency where drug use has not spread to any great extent. 

Researchers report taht while there are more delinquencies for profit in 
high drug use areas, the increase in delinquency as a whole (and in felonies) 
has been no greater in high drug use than in low use areas. Indications are 
that gang membership (as such) by and large does not lead to addiction. Fur- 
thermore, education regarding the effects of drugs has proved effective in the 
cases of children reached before the critical age; by the time a boy is 16, it 
may already be too late. There is every reason to believe that such factual 
information serves an especially useful purpose when provided to youth in the 
areas where drugs are in any case more readily available. 

The board of education a couple of years ago provided the schools with cur- 
riculum materials on drugs for grades 7-12. Consideration might well be given 
to doing some of this teaching in the 6th grade as well, to reach more children 
approaching their 14th year. 

There appear to be no particular measures indicated at this time which are 
not already being applied. Research still in progress, however, may point to 
new programs. We have a demonstration program at Riverside Hospital to 
provide special treatment and foUowup care to teen-age addicts. An evaluative 
study of this project will be undertaken very shortly, to report to the community 
on what has been learned there and what is being accomplished. 

Youth toard street clubs and casetcorJc services 

The New York City Youth Board has been doing a notable job with predelin- 
quent and delinquent youth who seemed too tough for any other agency to 
handle. Developing from a pilot project sponsored by welfare council, the 
council of street clubs, now provides a corps of specially trained, highly skilled 
group workers who maintain a continuing contact with some 22 teen-age gangs. 

As a result of the patient efforts of the social group workers, youths who were 
prone to street fighting and even more serious crime are now moving in the direc- 
tion of running successful social affairs and building their reputation in a more 
socially acceptable fashion. 

Make no mistake, this work is difficult and sometimes disappointing. Boys 
who have been embittered by school failure, poverty, and social discrimination, 
who have acquired their learning from hard tutors in the streets, do not become 
little gentlemen overnight. It is just as well we recognize this so that no impos- 
sible demands for window dressing "progress" reports confront this staff. They 
are walking a tortuous road, but there have been some notable achievements. 

Among the groups reached by this work, "gang wars" are virtually ancient 
history. But the same cannot be said of other clubs in the same or other neigh- 
borhoods, for whom we have not provided helpful leaders. To "pal around" 
with the boys, to help arrange activities, to smooth school relations, more leaders 
are needed. 

The youth board proposes doubling the number of street clubs served in the 
present project areas ; extension of service to other neighborhoods in equal volume 
is also suggested. I strongly recommend that every cent requested for this 
work be appropriated without delay. 

There are precious few private agencies willing to undertake the difficult area 
the youth board has cut out for itself. There is no agency in a position to carry 
this work tlirough on the scale of the youth board operation. Their leaders have 
the spirit, the will, and the know-how ; money is needed to quadruple staff on 
this operation. It means reaching directly a pretty obstreperous sector of youth, 
some of them before they get into serious trouble. 

The street clubs project needs an increase of $508,000 by 1957-58. The youth 
board can indicate by how much it is in a position to expand oi)erations this 
next year. 

=^0 .Tiivpnile drug arrosts were up ">0 percent in 1954. However, this may in some degree 
reflect the availability of a larger number of enforcement personnel. Commissioner Adams 
has been adding to the drug squad for some time and three times as many men are now on 
the job as compared with 1951. New York owes its welfare council a salute for sounding 
a danger signal several years ago. 








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To back up the street club workers, the youth board is ready to recruit social 
caseworkers and even psychiatrists who are prepared to work on the street, in 
poolrooms, in the back of a store, where these youth are to be found. Many 
have problems of adjustment, employment problems, other needs beyond the 
skills of their group leaders. In some instances, a good counselor can be of real 
help not only to the boy but in straightening out a difficult family situation 
as well. 

There is a crying need in this city for a corps of specialists in personal and 
family problems who are willing and able to go out to people who need help 
instead of sitting in an office waiting for clients. The youth board services to 
families and children has demonstrated over a period of time that it is up to this 
job and has the will to carry it through. 

An increase of $270,000 by 1957-.58 has been requested. Here, too, there is 
virtually no other agency to provide the service. 

I strongly recommend that these funds be granted. However, I suggest that 
a clear statement be obtained from the youth board as to what proportion of this 
program will be earmarked for services to adolescents and their families. This 
work to date has been focused around 9-year olds, and while that service sector 
should unquestionably be supported and extended, there is a crying need for 
work with the older group as well. 

I think our city can take real pride in the pioneer job the street-club project 
and the services for families and children are doing. I have seen the letters 
of inquiry the youth board has received from other cities contemplating similar 
programs, the letters from overseas, as well. We are charting a new path of 
service to those who need it most ; this is an approach to some of the very 
thorniest problems in the whole welfare field. And it is an approach that seems 
to pay off. 

Providing comprehensive youth hoard services in three additional areas 

The youth board's comprehensive juvenile delinquency index, which includes 
all police and court reports,'' shows that in additicm to the 11 neighborhoods in 
which program is presently concentrated, 3 new areas have passed the critical 
point. Funds should lie allocated without dehiy for putting into Chelsea, part 
of Long Island City and northern Staten Island the full Itattery of case work, 
group work, and recreation services which already are contributing so largely to 
stemming of the tide of delinquency in other high-hazard neighborhoods. 

Right now, in Chelsea, for example, the private agencies are making a real effort 
to cope with an increase in delinquency, but the problem is simply beyond their 
resources. There are large numbers of teen-agers drifting about the streets, 
loath to participate in established recreation programs, looking for a little ex- 
citement. We should be imaginative enough to tlirow something substantial into 
the gap right now, before trouble breaks out. 

This is a tough neighborhood, but it has good citizens who have organized to 
try to get some action on their problems. Newcomers, who have moved in of 
recent years, are finding a place in the life of the community but they need help; 
so do the people who have lived on the lower West Side all their lives. 

It is regrettable that shortage of funds impels us to wait until the 11th 
hour to provide opportunities that should have been made available all along. 
But it is the 11th hour now. I have examined the shifting pattern of delinquency 
rates. To wait any longer would be disa.strous. 

To serve three new areas, youth board estimates the increase in cost as of 
1957-58 would total $1,314,500. 

That is a lot of money, but the youth board is prepared to show how many 
would be reached in recreation programs, in club work, through case-work treat- 
ment and counseling.^ Included in the total also are funds for referral units ; 
special groups of social workers to talk with problem youngsters right in the 
school and take steps to insure proper foUowup. 

In connection with the referral units, however, I would recommend that the 
youth board be urged not to confine them to grade schools alone, as has been 
pretty much the practice to date. More of an attempt should be made to reach 
teenagers. This means consideration not only of junior highs, but of high schools 
as possible locations for referral units. 

^ Except for confiriential "youthful offender" data. 

'^ An important aspect of tlie youth board's program is the fact that it centers around 
eervicps available, for the most part, In the neighborhoods. Patience and persistence are 
called for In promotlnc the use of nelRhborhood resources. The tendency of certain 
agencies, even those receiving public funds on contract, to shift operations to a few central 
locations is deplorable. 




i new service areas propoetd 
■critical''boroer areas 
prcsent" service areas 



Teacher rotation 

It is generally recognized that there are a number of regular schools in our 
jiuhlic system which present teachers with especially demanding requirements. 
I refer to problems in the encouragement of learning and in the discipline area. 
In order to assure the students in these schools equal educational opportunities, 
a real effort to provide teachers of perhaps above average competence is 

There is a substantial body of opinion in informed quarters contending that 
while many highly effective and dedicated teachers are to be found in such set- 
tings, there may be a disproportionate number of teachers who, for one or another 
reason, simply are not equal to the special demands of the situation. Dr. Jansen 
lias informed me that a systematic review of one aspect of this problem is under- 
way, with an eye to assuring the students in "difficult" schools a group of teach- 
ers not including an inordinate proportion of substitutes or newcomers to the 

Delinquency rates vary markedly from school to school. P^very effort should 
be made to assure assignment of our most capable teaching persoiuiel to children 
growing up in high hazard environments. This is a top priority question. There 
is a real need for reevaluation of our teacher rotation policies. 

Steps have already been taken to offer special incentives to experienced teachers 
contemplating transfer. Class size in these schools has been cut down and extra 
teachers and other teaching personnel have been added. The question of in- 
centives merits further consideration. Professional people, who do not labor 
for bread alone, may appreciate some recognition of unusual service. 

Parent education 

There is no denying the fact that the one most important influence upon the 
growing child is that of his parents. It seems to me, however, that much of 
the criticism attributing to parents responsibility for juvenile delinquency is 
essentially uncharitable. Now we have on the statute books laws making adults, 
and parents in particular, answerable for offenses of minors in cases where the 
part played by the adult is clearly demonstrable. What is to be said, however, 
of the extent of general responsibility on the part of people who were themselves 
reared under the most bitter conditions: who as children, and subsequently as 
adults, have found themselves alone in what has seemed an essentially indiffer- 
ent, even hostile and exploitative world. How sharply and righteously have we 
a right to criticize parents who were themselves beaten unjustly, parents who 
have known at first hand what is means to feel shut out and alone. Some will 
respond to such deprivations with special efforts to assure a richer life, a warmer 
world for their children ; some will take it out on a child if he's the only helpless 
person at hand ; and some will feel that their children by hook or crook will 
achieve adulthood after all, as they themselves have done. 

Perhaps these obervations seem far afield from the traditional parent educa- 
tion references to toilet training and the size of a child's allowance, and the age 
at which a girl should be given the money for her first "formal." But i>erhaps, 
instead, they point to some new directions in parent education — to parents who 
are still "learning the ropes" of metropolitan living, parents whose aspirations 
for their children may be no less poignant for all their inarticulateness. 

Perhaps, there has been much talk of parental incompetence and neglect. Our 
city over the decades has known many who have failed their children not out of 
malice or indifference but because they did not know the new ways — or were too 
troubled getting acquainted with a new land and a new way of life. Today, 
we can make the getting acquainted easier, and today, for the old-timers, too, 
we can oi>en the door to help. To seek counsel, especially the counsel of one's 
own neighbors, need imply no confession of failure. 

Sometimes I think public attitudes toward juvenile deliquency today have 
that embarrassed quality that characterized the approach to tuberculosis at 
the turn of the century. Juvenile deliquency, like scarlet fever, is a disorder 
of children — whether there will be complications depends to a fair extent on 
how the case is treated. And attitudes in the liomes are decisive in making the 
vital decisions as to handling.^^ 

Our board of education has projected a little demonstration through the even- 
ing centers operating in more and more of our schools. Their plan is not for 
formal lectures, but rather along lines of the friendly discussion group. I 

^■^ The forp.coinj;: by no means is intended to neglect the problems raised by a certain 
number of truly irresponsible individuals who have simply ignored their children. 


haven't asked, but perhaps members will chip in so there'll be coffee, too. I 
susgest also, that experience has demonstrated that some parents who shy away 
from "a discussion group" will feel more free to chat in a sewing class or furni- 
ture repair project. As these are oftentimes precisely those we are most 
anxious to reach, I trust that those responsible for the program will plan im- 
aginatively with this in mind. 

This type of enterprise is deserving of the most highly qualified leadership. 
Dr. Jansen assures me that while funds will not permit overly attractive pay- 
ment for such service, the schools will welcome capable and experienced people 
in our city, not presently on the teaching staff, who would be qualified for 
part-time employment on this project. 

The board of education's budget request for parent education was $19,000. 
This sum was a mere 1% percent of the total community and recreation centers 
budget request. Salaries to leaders in the sports program were budgeted at a 
sum 27 times as large. 

The fact that this type of parent education is a new program in the schools 
need not, I believe, necessitate such a creaklngly slow start. Parent discussion 
groups may be an experiment for the bureau of community education, but work 
along these lines has been carried on successfully elsewhere for many years. 
There is a real reservoir of experience to draw upon.-* 

I therefore recommend as a minimum that a worker with imrents be added 
to the staff of every single one of the S7 evening community and recreation 
centers in areas designated by the youth board as high delinquency neighbor- 
hoods. These people should be retained for a sutficient number of sessions per 
week to allow them adequate time to plan their material and to make occasional 
necessary visits to homes and community agencies. And the emphasis should 
be on continuity of service and specialist personnel ; this will probably necessi- 
tate recruitment of the larger propoi'tion of these discussion leaders from out- 
side the schools, according to procedures already in effect. 

If such personnel were added to the program t)f the centers in the 14 youth 
board special sei-\'ice neighborhoods only, no more than 87 people would be 
needed. To employ 268 parent education teachers on the same basis in evei'y 
such center in the city, would cost approximately $195,000. 

I recommend that this program be financed by a special appropnation to the 
youth board, but be operated b.v the bureau of comnmnity education. Following 
already tested operating practices, the youth board would develop personnel 
specifications as a guide to the bureau of community education in the recruitment 
of personnel. 

I further recommend providing adequate consiiltant-supervisor-trainer person- 
nel for the professional leaders of the parent groups. Even skilled people are 
going to need counsel themselves in carrying out any program that really gets 
into basic problems of parents. I believe that we should make it possible for 
such a coordinator to have a conference once a month with each one of the 
parent group workers. Two full-time coordinators ($1,3,900 per annum total) 
might provide sufficient consultation service for 87 group workers if onlj' the 
schools in youth board service areas where served ; to provide adequate consul- 
tation services for leaders of groups in all the schools involved would require 
about six more full-time coordinators. It is absolutely essential that we provide 
for supervisors specifically detailed to this project. 

The expanded operation projected here would in no wise affect the parent 
education experiment in the amount of $19,000 per annum proposed by the board 
of education as part of the regular program of the Bureau of Community Educa- 

In connection with the well-baby clinic program of the health department, our 
city has obtained the services of an internationally recognized authority on 
children's behavior." This gifted physician, sitting in with regular clinic staff, 
talks over everyday problems with mothers and children, making a real contri- 
bution in forestalling habit problems, tension, and anxiety at an early age. 

In training pediatricians to serve along these lines, we are erecting a first line 
of defense against delinquency, as well as against persimal maladjustment and 
unhappiness. Services to a cross-section population of normal babies and their 
mothers now, may save untold thousands in services to the abnormal a few years 

I am therefore recommending that $17,0fM) be allotted the health department 
to institute service along these lines as part of its program in two additional 

2* This would include, of course, the rich experience of our parent-teacher associations. 
*5 Dr. David Levy. 


neighborhoods. The districts serve<l will both lie within youth board service 
areas and the population served will be a real cross section of our youngest 
children's i)arents, getting advice when it can do the most good — before delin- 
quency becomes a problem. I hope that our mental health board will give further 
expansion of this project top priority among those to be considered in its plaus 
later this year. 

Already underway, also in our heath department, is a parent education pro- 
gram, employing informal discussion groups. Especially trained personnel lead 
the sessions, and parents have an opportunity to reconsider their own problems 
in the friendly light of neighbors' shared experience. 

I believe that this work should t>e expanded, with the understanding that 
the discussion group leaders be qualified to plan programs covering all aspects 
of the child-rearing process. All parents can profit by this counsel ; all children 
are entitled to the benefits of this service. Through the health department, we 
are in a position to extend this help to parents who are already coming periodi- 
cally for other services. I therefore recommend that the youth board be granted 
$20,000 enabling the health department to extend this service in those youth 
board .service areas where it is not presently operating. (I might add that a 
number of the community's .social work agencies have projects along similar lines, 
which they will wish to expand as private benefactors make funds available.) 

The co-op program and guidance in the schools 

A major problem related to juvenile delinquency centers about the compulsory 
education law, and the school-leaving age. Some have suggested that boys who 
seem uninterested in school and are always getting into trouble there "get out 
and get a job." ^^ 

It seems to me that we have a long way to go in making adequate provision for 
such difficult students within the school before we write them off as a bad lot. 
The school authorities have a real problem in maintaining discipline so that 
teaching can go on. The number of troublemakers is not large and our teachers 
have every right to expect connnunity support in dealing with them. Aliout 
this, let there be no mistake. We must recognize that not only law and order, 
but the rights of the great majority of students — those who can get along— 
are at stake here. 

Those who feel that delinquents and potential delinquents in our schools should 
be turned out on the street "to find a job" may be interested in the facts to date. 
A large statewide study in California disclosed that four times as many 
dropouts as graduates were still looking for work. The same study showed 
6 out of 10 of school dropouts were children of unskilled or semiskilled laborers ; 
yet workers in these categories make up nowhere near that large a proportion 
of the population. The problem is clear : it is a basic American principle that 
children have an eqiaal chance at education, regardless of their parents' circum- 
stances. Yet it seems that there is a differential when w^e look to see for whom 
the schools have made themselves attractive. (It should l>e noted here that 
there is real question as to ineducability being a substantial ccmsideration for 
any large proportion of these dropouts). 

It should be noted also that children leave school because they're "fed up" or 
feel they'd enjoy working more. In the majority of cases, the reasons for leav- 
ing school are not financial. Follow up studies show that dropouts very rarely 
get any schooling subsequently, and that more find themselves in "deadend" jobs. 
In the Glueck's recent delinquency study, it was found that while a good majority 
of both the delinquents and nondelinquents worked, three times as many non- 
delinquents were employed on supervised jobs or in factories. And more of the 
delinquents were working (unsupervised, of course) in street trades. 

I wonder how many who advocate getting the older, slower student out of 
school have thought about where he would land afterward, about placement 
on the right kind of job. or the contrast between superivsion (of sorts at least) 
in school and the possibility of no supervision at all on the outside. 

Are we to retreat from the ground the British can only now contemplate 
achieving? D. Archibald, writing from London declares "one of the best 
methods of preventing delinquency is to keep children witliin the framework 
of a good educational system during the most restless adolescent years" — to 36. 

We have a responsibility to try to help the youngster who seems bent on 
throwing away his right to an education. He is still a juvenile; we cannot say 

2" There may be some point to amending the provisions of the statute sotting up con- 
tinuation schools, to allow greater flexibility in the plannins of extended school services for 
young workers. But the schools must continue their guidance role. 


to him, "If you choose to neglect your education, it is no one's concern but your 
own." Consideration must be given to the vitality of the curriculum offered, 
and to teacher attitudes toward the slow learner. I know these are areas where 
my concern is shared by the administrators of our school system, and many 
who are classroom teachers. Until we have made the broadest guidance 
programs and real flexibility of curriculum available to "misfits" there would 
seem to be no call for basically revising our compulsory attendance law. I 
have yet to be persuaded that the children who would in consequence be be- 
yond the reach of school services would find themselves on the road to better 

Over a period of years, a program has been developed within our high schools 
to provide an opportunity for selected students to complete their studies "' while 
employed in private industry halftime, at prevailing wages. Last year 4,000 
students were enrolled in this co-op program in 33 high schools ; they worked 
at beauty culture, as salesmen, as typists, in machine shops, in ofiices, and in 
scores. It is time to move this experiment out of the experimental class ; 40 
years have demonstrated its worth.^ The time has come to extend this cur- 
riculum to more students ; perhaps the selection process has been just a little 
too fine. 

Counseling in the schools. — A common observation by delinquency researchers 
is the need for more effective counseling, especially vocational counseling, for 
young people. Youths graduating or dropping out of high school are too often 
vague as to their employment plans and frequently seem to bring little to a 
prospective employer. If the co-op program is to be expanded, there must be a 
more thorough going guidance operation, as well. 

There are today 1,765 teachers doing guidance work in the schools ; of these, 
only S2 are licensed counselors. The 82 put in full time on the guidance .lob ; 
63 other teachers with a varied background of experience are also detailed to 
guidance full time. Thus, over 90 percent of the personnel engaged in guidance 
have to fit it into a program which makes other demands on their time — most 
of tliem put in the equivalent of 1 day a week in this work. It has been esti- 
mated that the amount of time available for counseling averages out to less 
than 5 minutes per student per school year in the high schools. 

It is to be hoped that ways will be found to add a larger number of specially 
qualified full-time people to help with this vital responsibility. 

Youth boai-d in-service training 

The youth board is again appealing for a pitifully small grant so that it 
can set up a thoroughgoing training program, not only for its own staff but also 
for other city departments which have requested help for their workers in the 
areas where youth board is exi>ert. Every dollar spent for training, it is clear, 
multiplies itself by making it possible to do more of a job with the same number 
of people. 

The kind of work the youth board is carrying on requires the best. To assign 
it a task and then hold back on the wherewithal for performing the task effec- 
tively is false economy. 

The in-sei'vice training-program request is for $38,000. That hardly seems 
like much of a training program for so large a staff, but that is the youth board's 
best judgment. Whatever objections there may have been to this enterprise in 
the past, I can see no point in niggardliness today. I heartily endorse this 
request as a top-priority program. 

Fellowship study program : Some provision must be made to support tlie efforts 
of workers in certain strategic programs to obtain the special professional train- 
ing needed for most effective preformance on their jobs."" 

This problem is especially acute in the case of positions where social work skills 
are involved, as the training program in that field, as in medicine, makes a period 
of full-time field experience mandatory. The schools of social work have shown 
some willingness to credit adequately supervised paid experience with the city in 
lieu of the customary field work, but these plans need further development. 

In any event, it must be recognized that there are city workers who need special 
training involving something more than an evening or two a week of their own 
time. They are deserving of public support. Our educational leave jrolicy is in 

2' Only 1 percent of co-op students drop out. 

^ Some iidditions to central office staff, and sufficient funds to permit co-op supervisors 
in the various hia;h schools to devote full time to this work would add some $90,000 to 
the cost of tlie program. 

™ We now allow welfare about one-sixth the training period budgeted for police. 


crying need of review ; every possible help must be provided career people seeking 
special training in order to do a better job. The obstacles in the way of a liber- 
alized educational leave program must be swept aside, in the interest of better 
services to children in trouble.^" 

Planning and coordination 

Planning and coordination of programs in the juvenile delinquency field involves 
close operating relationships with many city departments and a multitude of 
private agencies. The New York City Youth Board has for some years now been 
charged with this responsibility. There is every reason for continuing to lodge 
the function with that body. 

However, I believe the youth board might well give consideration to placing 
greater emphasis upon its role in planning. To date a very large proportion of 
its energies has gone into program development and liaison with contract agencies. 

Someone has got to be given the time to step back and take the long view. 
Progress in this direction has been pretty well limited to some examination of 
the youth board's own programs. Much more of a commitment to this work 
area is urgently needed. Head counting is important, but more is needed for 
planning than merely data on fluctuations in the volume of delinquency. 

The makeup of the youth board itself should exemplify the breadth to be 
encompassed in the coordination of operations. Workers in the field can be- 
come better acquainted, and leadership in all departments can reach beyond 
particularized interests to a common understanding of the integration of 
services we need. Despite some years' endeavor, there are problems still to 
be grappled with. Given good will, cool heads, and deployment of enough crit- 
ical brainpower at the center, there is a good chance of a well-rounded, effective 
battery of programs. 

In addition to a broadened research perspective, I therefore believe the youth 
board needs a small unit of full-time experts who can bring various special 
skills to the problems of coordination and long-range planning. This team would 
be responsible for smoothing working relationships with other agencies and for 
the development of overall operations plans with the youth board members and 
executive director. It would be well to involve in planning the chiefs of the 
board's operating divisions, and perhaps private agency representatives as well. 
But the pressing need is for additional personnel who can look beyond day- 
to-day problems and have no direct responsibility for operations, no connnit- 
ment to a particular aspect of today's problem. 

The planning unit, including a director, and senior analysts who would rank 
with the present casework, recreation and group work, and research chiefs, 
should report quarterly directly to the board. Its responsibilities should center 
about the need for communitywide coordination of service programs; opera- 
tions being carried on by the youth board directly should not be its primary 

Evaluation. — Reasonable assumptions rather than established facts must pro- 
vide the justification for most of our programs in this field today. But for long- 
range planning, reasonable assumptions simply will not sufiice. A scientific fact- 
finding and assessment program is called for. 

Operations costing in the neighborhod of $25 million are in a pretty expensive 
neighborhood. We want to know, as we move ahead, which ones work and 
which do not. And we want to know which programs are the more effective 
among those which really do work. 

For all this, we need a factfinding group not attached to any particular pro- 
gram but in a position to work freely with all. 

I believe the most suitable location for this assessment operation is not only 
outside the field agencies but outside the city government itself. The research 
people should be free to carry through scientific studies of our best efforts, with- 
out any possibility of political interference. The place for such a project is in 
an institution of learning and President Gallagher, of the City College, has indl- 

^ The cost of this prosrnm will depend upon whether salary is granted workers awav on 
educational leave. Perhaps $30,000 would suffice for a year's demonstration. Note that 
new State legislation will provide help to probation officers. Money is still neded, however, 
in other fields. 

31 The cost of a unit comprised of 7 professionals and 3 secretaries would be about 
$82,000 per annum. With youth board budget projections at levels of $4 to .?5 million, this 
hardly seems a great sum to put into planning. It must also be remembered that tlie 
planning will he with reference to programs in the entire community, not merelv in the 
youth board. 

65263—55 3 


cated a willingness to provide a home for the evaluation team ; this is in line 
with the interest this college has already demonstrated through action projects 
in our field. Among these, I might mention the college's community service 

To carry through the task effectively will require the services of a person 
witli rank equivalent to a full professor as director ; proper staffing would prob- 
ably call for an associate professor, 2 assistant professors, and 10 research asso- 
ciates — plus clerical personnel. The assessment unit would not need to be fully 
staffed until perhaps a year after it got underway, but the key people in par- 
ticular should be recruited at the outset, and for a period of time long enough 
to assure a coherent operation. The project should be clearly understood as of 
a temporary character. It seems to me we should plan on a 5-year basis, and 
should allow flexibility so that certain personnel could be retained for special 
studies, even of a relatively brief sort. 

The entire factfinding operation will be carried out by specially trained and 
experienced people who have no special axe to srind and are beholden to no 
particular agency. They should have the freest access to any city project 
which affects juvenile delinquency.^" I believe that private agencies, too. will 
respond positively to an invitation to cooperate. 

Welfare and civic leaders, as well as certain strategically situated civil 
servants can play an important role in helping orient this work. A group of 
such people is well-nigh indispensable in helping prepare the ground for the 
action-research team. But we would want to have a clear understanding from 
the outset, that the researchers would be free from any outside control. 

The senior personnel for this work will be soiight in a nationwide canvass 
of the most promising prospects. Dr. Gallagher believes he could be in a posi- 
tion at an early date to submit names to the mayor for endorsement. This 
would enable us to get underway without losing a whole academic year because 
of key personnel having made other commitments. 

It should be emphasized that what will be sought is topnotch scholars who 
have already demonstrated a capacity to carry out action research. This can- 
not be a center for theoretical or basic studies. 

Without committing the college in advance to any particular design in bal- 
ancing the research team. I believe we would do well to bear in mind that the 
problem we are attemping to solve is in its largest aspects a social, not a 
purely clinical problem. The techniques we emplo.v in the prevention and 
treatment of juvenile delinquency certainly include clinical techniques. But 
the problem in evaluating a proper balance among programs is a problem 
calling primarily for a social scientist with a strong rest^arch background. 
In addition to personnel with sociological skills, experts with capacities along 
psychiatric, psychological, social work, and statistical lines (for example) are 
all indispensable. I believe it should be possible, in every instance, to find 
for this work people who have skills and a deep appreciation of more than 
a single one of these fields. This job is a tough one, and not for the narrow 
specialist ; the team approach has got to be an agreed-upon foundation before 
we can even think of getting started. 

I believe that an effective factfinding program will save us hundreds of 
thousands of dollars yearly, by making clear just whicli programs in the delin- 
quency field are actually carrying out fi'uitful operation.s. A centralized assess- 
ment project will make valid comparisons possible and enable us to plan tieing 
together the impact of programs under diversified auspices. A centralized 
research operation should also prove more economical in meeting the need for 
new information as indicated above.'' 

The $95,000 i>er annum this research program would cost when it got fully 
underway is a small amount indeed, if we bear in mind the magnitude of the 
sums (perhaps $25 million) expended upon all our operational programs. Any 
well-run enterprise in the business field would consider this small allocation 
for factfinding and quality control, a very minimum level, indeed. 

In addition to the 10 priority programs which I have recommended for imme- 
diate attention, there are a number of others meriting the most serious con- 
sideration. Some touch upon operations on which I wish to inform myself 
more fully ; I, therefore, merely make mention of them at this time, by way of 
preface to future reports. 

32 This nilsht bp promoted by providing for some continuity in the research personnel 
assisrnprt to this or that operatinjr prosrani. 

^^ There will still be a need for the research work presently going on in the New York 
City Youth Board, for example. 


In this section, also, I am touching briefly upon a few projects to which 
I wish to lend a hearty endorsement as proper areas for the initiative of private 
individuals and agencies. The city, in the last analysis, can carry only so 
much of the load. Private social agencies, service clubs, philanthropists, founda- 
tions, individual citizens have all played an historic role in coping with the 
community's welfare problems. To meet the challenge of juvenile delinquency 
will require the mobilization of all of our resources. The good work already 
being carried on must be extended even further. This is a challenge to every 
New Yorker, according to his personal resources of skill and of money. In 
addition to the small number of areas I enlarge upon briefly here, appendix 
III lists some two dozen projects, large and small, which should prove of 

To these I wish to add the great contribution employers can make in planning 
for part-time employment by youth in commerce and industry. Many of the 
largest department stores, offices, and factories in our city are partners in the 
board of education's co-op program, but more job opportunities are needed. 
In addition, the law permits work on the widest variety of jobs on a part-time 
basis even by students not reached by tlie co-op program. I cannot place too 
great an emphasis upon the value of socially useful, properly paid work under 
conditions not detrimental to juvenile health and morals. This is an area where 
concern about delinquency can be translated into action — to the mutual advan- 
tage of the youth, the employer, the school, and the community at large. 


Neighborhood civic organization 

In a munber of cities experiments in the development of grassroots civic devel- 
opment associations are pointing a way to real progress toward meeting the 
challenge of juvenile delinquency, along with a number of other long-standing 
social problems. This is a job to be carried on, in the last analysis, by the 
neighbors themselves, although outside help can play a constructive role. 

In his first annual report, our mayor pointed out that in "any given area of 
the city the number of oldtime families who have struck deep roots in the 
neighborhood is relatively small. It is for that reason that special efforts must 
be exerted to develop citizen participation in the various neighborhoods through- 
out the city." 

It is simply not possible to put too much emphasis upon the potentials of 
activity along these lines. In high-delinquency areas in particular such civic 
groups have an invaluable part to play in overall welfare planning and in 
encouraging constructive social action on the part of youth. A constructive 
social action on the part of adults, by the way, would be seeking employment 
in the police department's expanded street-crossing guard program. This work 
is something that any reasonably intelligent and responsible person mipfht under- 
take, and I know Mr. Adams would welcome inquiries from neighborhood people 
desiring to qualify for this part-time employment. 

It is my opinion that community organization projects are most appropriately 
developed under independent auspices ; city officials and workers in a number 
of departments may quite appropriately be involved in auxiliary capacities, or 
in their own right, personally, as citizens. But the type of citizen effort the 
mayor and other forward-looking community leaders envision should be com- 
pletely free of any hazard of official domination. 

Neighborhood civic associations planned as membership organizations would 
play a role essentially different from that undertaken by the mayor's community 
advisory boards, whose members serve by appointment. Civic associations 
serve a complementary purpose. 

As people in our several neighborhoods evolve organizational forms appro- 
priate to their own needs, and bring forward articulate, dedicated, responsible 
leadership, the whole city will be the gainer. And our own job in planning com- 
mon services will be facilitated immeasurably. 

I am sure that as this initiative develops, a multitude of opportunities will be 
presented for city agencies to prove helpful. This is a fine prospect to look ahead 
to. And for the time being, a great challenge to New Yorkers to work with New 
Yorkers — and, perhaps, for those who have funds or know-how to lend a hand 
to those who may just now be making a beginning. 

Time-honored procedures and regulations are reexamined in times of crises. 
Enlightened self-interest can be nicely blended with a sense of responsibility to 
the larger community. It is to be hoped that New Yorkers are moving toward 
the sharing of facilities jealously guarded for good reason over the years. 


Columbia University, for example, last year for the first time opened Baker 
Field to an outside group. Their generosity made possible the development of 
a teen-age baseball league in this neighborhood, where there is a high hazard of 
youngsters becoming delinquent. 

Our public schools are doing a fine job in opening their doors for a wide variety 
of projects. In the coming year, this will be the ease more than ever before. 
Doubtles there are other buildings in our neighborhoods which may be put at the 
disposal of the community at large during idle hours. Perhaps there will be 
those among our church and synagogue leaders who will come forward at this 
time to offer facilities on a nondenominational basis for communal enterprises. 
A number of fine examples have been set already. 

Those charged with pastoral responsibilities can render a real service to the 
entire community by making space for wholesome, nonsectarian recreation pro- 
grams available to all youth, as well as those they number in their own llock. 
Surely there is no nobler proof of a belief that all men are brothers, than this 
practical sort of felowship. There are many who fee forsaken, many lolling on 
stoops or crowded on a bleak corner under the lamppost who would resjwnd to 
Jin opportunity to participate in a vital leisure-time program under imaginative 

Role of the school 

The schools can make significant contributions to the solution of the delin- 
fiuency problem in a variety of ways. I have discussed a number of special pro- 
grams at various points in this report. But most important is the opportunity 
afforded the day-to-day classroom teacher. 

The challenge is not to be a substitute parent, a substitute psychiatrist or a 
substitute policeman. The challenge is to motivate learning, never to cease 
trying to capture the elusive imagination of the growing child. This is what we 
mean by "helping open the doors of the world." The challenge to the teacher is 
to teach — hopefully, to teach from a loving henrt; but, in any event, really to 

"Many learnings occur simultaneously * * * The teacher who knows the 
children under his care can do much by using the total learning situation to help 
the child with disturbed conditions of life. The attainment of this end requires 
no abstruse knowledge or newly discovered techniques ; the teacher who is fair- 
minded, sympathetic, emotionally reliable, who has concern for the development 
of healthy personality in his pupils, and who is skilled in teaching, helps to 
diminish the dissatisfactions that lead to maladjustment. Nothing is gained by 
describing his work as group therapy." 

Of recent years, there have been a growing number of indications of lowered 
morale among teachers in our public schools. The reasons for discontent are 
varied, and it may be that some of the teachers' wishes cannot be met. 

A crucial problem was raised by Superintendent Jansen at the time of the 
school budget bearings. "The teenager in our present high-tension world is in 
great need for closer contact with his teachers that can only come when the 
class size is considerably reduced." This, of course, is equally true of the needs 
of preteens. I shall have to refrain from making any specific recommendations 
here, because the magnitude of the sums involved puts this program outside the 
budgetary limitations of the present enterprise. 

After the parent, no c)ne, probal)ly, has a greater influence upon the growing 
child than his teachers. To the child maturing in a setting replete with delin- 
quency hazard, the teacher is in an especially strategic position to be of help. 

The lioard of education has provided real leadership through such special 
]n-ogranis as those in the all day neighborhood schools, the play schools, and 
the bureau of comnnmity education. Much that is helpful proceeds from 110 
Livingston Street, by way of curriculum materials and other publications. 

But to some, the very size of the public school system seems to militate against 
the free flow of ideas from the classroom teacher back to the administration. 
There is real need for experimentation with devices to bring classroom opinion 
more directly to bear upon central planning. Just what methods will prove 
most effective in attaining that end, I leave, at this time, to the schoolmen.'* 

^' Thp informnl wppkly confpvfnop.'^ board of Pflnpatlon President Charles H. Silver has 
been holding witli groups of principals, certainly seem a positive contribution. An extension 
of this program to include groups composed exclusively of classroom teachers has been 
reported under consideration. I am sure such discussions would prove worthwhile for all 


The spark of interest, the warm flame of dedication, are an indispensable part 
of teaching. Children who spend their days with teachers who are serving 
time, are qnick to sense that fact. Disillusionment with school is generally 
recognized as playing an important part in the development of delinquent pat- 
terns. Any contribution the administration can make to reviving a flagging 
teacher morale, will prove a real blow against juvenile delinquency. And the 
community at large can do more to demonstrate the high regard in which it 
holds those who have dedicated a lifetime of service to this honored calling. 


Unexcused absence from school is far and awa.v the most frequent of all 
delinquencies. And truancy not uncommonly proves to have been the first im- 
portant misstep if we examine the personal history of a hardened criminal. 

If it were possible to do something for children who have not yet come in 
major conflict with the law at the time they first start to truant, many delinquent 
careers might be nipped in the bud. The bureau of attendance of our school 
system has a large staff engaged, among other things, in investigating all unex- 
plained absences of more than a few days. As it happens, in 7 investigations 
out of 10, the absence proves to have been "lawful;" only 21 percent of the 
investigated absences turn out to be "trunacies." ^^ Focussing upon making a 
very large number of investigations means that it is only possible to si)end a 
limited amount of time looking into any particular case ; I believe there is a real 
need for deployment of personnel under revised procedures more likely to result 
in intensive work-up of the small proportion of cases needing long-term service.^" 

Our attendance officers should have a real opportunity to help children who 
are drifting^before they drift too far and in the wrong direction. "By definition, 
truancy implies that school is an unsatisfactoiy experience." To what extent 
are our attendance officers in a position to help children achieve a more satisfac- 
tory experience in the schools? Is there opportunity for intensive followup with 
the child, his parents, his classroom teacher — in that crucial fraction of cases 
where the pattern is not yet set? Is it possible, for example, to give special 
attention to the relatively small proportion of truants in the second and third 
grades, say, who may be just commencing to experiment in delinquency? Or is 
the emphasis uix)n maintaining a certain volume of completed investigations for 
accounting purposes in connection with State aid ? " 

"The normal truant belongs in the group of those who resist school because 
of boredom. Perhaps at one time or another it has included all of us, for it 
is in the nature of living to resist conformity, routine, rigid rules, and to seek 
variety and creativity, using freedom to explore at the unfettered dictates of the 

"When rules are avoided by a few, control over the group is threatened. These 
children challenge the imagination of teachers and school administrators. Giv- 
ing them enriched programs and understanding and wise counsel is usually 
the best answer. Labeling them "truants" or "delinquents" is as fruitless as it is 
dangerous. Individual treatment is best for them as well as for the morale 
of the school." 

The attendance officer can be a key man in the team approach to delinquency. 

The "600" schools 

A few years ago an experiment was undertaken by the board of educa- 
tion to provide special opportunities for grade-school students presenting dis- 
ciplinary problems in the regular school. Teachers in the special schools are 
paid additional salary, but on the whole cannot be regarded as specialist per- 
sonnel. The selection process is designed to secure experienced teachers who 
have deaionstrated a capacity to work with problem youngsters. But the 
additional training demanded is essentially minimal, and questions have been 
raised as to the real value of this isolation program, which now costs more 
than $1 million per annum for salaries alone. 

A thoroughgoing assessment of the operation has yet to be undertaken, and 
while there are unquestionably positive aspects, the public is entitled to some 
real facts as to the value of the program as reflected in the subsequent careers of 
graduates. I feel that plans for high schools of the same sort, as well as 
similar schools for girls, should be held in abeyance. Some concerted fact- 

^ Most of the remainder are children unlawfully detained by parents or guardians to- 
gether with a scattering of children unlawfuhy employed. 

^ Last year there were no less than 376,000 separate investigations. 

^^ My concern is that a maximum of attention be turned to counselling. I am not 
suggesting that investigation of absences, as required by law, be abandoned. 


finding is in order, and it is my hope tliat a study wmmittee Superintendent 
Jansen will soon appoint will include not only board of education personnel but 
experts from outside the school system and consultants suggested by interested 
civic grouiis, as well. 

The Bureau of Child Guidance 

This essential service in our schools is being enlarged during the coming year, 
as additional psychiatrist-psychologist-socialworker teams are activated. Dr. 
Jansen is presently working on plans for certain improvements in the operation, 
in the light of an extensive study only recently completed. This ambitious 
survey (made posible by the joint effort of our board of education, the Field 
Foundation, the New York Fund for Children, and the New York Foundation) 
offers a real point of departure for enlightened planning. I shall put off making 
any recommendations about this bureau while the survey report is till being 

Recreation programs 

The bureau of community education in our public schools, under the able 
leadership of Mark McCloskey (who now heads the New York State Youth Com- 
mission) has done a notable job in providing extended recreation services in 
some 288 schools. The bureau in recent years has been able to employ full-time 
center directors, thanks to grants from the New York City Youth Board, and, for 
the first time, professionally trained group workers as well. 

The increase in budget recommended for this operation in the new year should 
make possible a major extension of operations. I trust that these funds will 
include provisions for a larger staff at the citywide level. There also is need for 
a pool of supervisory personnel who will be at the disposition of the acting head 
of the bureau, so that manpower can he deployed from one school district to 
another with a minimum of redtape. I believe, too, that consideration ought to 
be given the possibility of putting two-man teams into schools which have on 
their own initiative already developed community programs. These activities 
should not be confined to plants which have full-scale comprehensive programs 

Our school buildings, meeting rooms, swimming pools, auditoriums, gyms, and 
playgrounds should increasingly be made available on a 7-day-per-week basis, 
with a lai'icer volume of evening operations, as well. This is a tried-and-tested 
program meriting all possible expansion, substantially along present lines. 

The special contribution of group work. — In all our recreation programs, in- 
cluding those in the schools, I should like to call attention to the importance of 
including group work as well as the customary crafts, dramatics, and sports. 
There are real benefits by way of personal growth and guidance which are likely 
to be achieved only in the club setting, among groups of perhaps only 12 to 20 
people. Group workers who have, si>ecial skills in the field of interpersonal 
relations are as indispensable to a balanced leisure-time program as athletic 
coaches or activity instructors. In recruitment of personnel, an effort, I believe, 
should be made to reach leaders who have demonstrated interest, understanding, 
and ability in the family and the neighborhood approaches to this work.^ 

School-building dcsif/n. — In planning school buildings for the future, we should 
continue to incorporate in the design opportunities for extended community serv- 
ice programs. Plants should provide facilities suitable for crafts shops and club 
meeting rooms. Auditorium, etc., are already being designed so that access is 
possible without an entire school building's being thrown open. These details 
are simple, but crucial. There is not reason why the city should invest millions 
in special plant for recreation while facilities are at hand or could be at hand 
in the schools. 

Weekend, holiday programing. — The city is taking positive measures to insure 
its various youth programs remaining in operation 7 days a week to an increas- 
ing degree. Where overtime costs have to be met, they are being budgeted. 
Private agencies naturally determine their own operating policies, but in view of 
an impressive weight of expert opinion, I would hope they would consider serious- 
ly the provision of more weekend and holiday programs.^' 

^* Those activities staffed with 1 leader for every 12 to 20 people are obviously more 
expensive (on a per capita basis) than those in which a sinsle leader worlds with 100 
peoide. A well-balanced proarram will include both clubs and square dancing, say. There 
is an important place for both kinds of leaders. 

.30 Agencies in the case work and guidance fields might also give the most serious con- 
sideration to the need for scheduling standby staff and instituting a greater volume of 
service during hours when prospective clients are likeliest to be away from their jobs or 
household duties. 









Adve7iture playgrounds 

In recent years, there has been a growing body of opinion in the recreation 
field calling for a new approach to playgrounds and playground programs. In 
virtually erupty lots, practically devoid of apparatus, highly successful pro- 
grams have been developed in Copenhagen, Denmark, in London, in Ken- 
sington, in Crawley, England, and in Minneapolis, for example, in our own 
country. It appears that children welcome the opportunity to use tools to con- 
struct their own playhouses — that attendance at such playgrounds is continuous 
and high. And it is reported the police find a marked decline in so-called delin- 
quency ; playground personnel report fewer accidents (115). 

I believe that serious consideration should be given both to the "junk play- 
ground" and to playgrounds employing apparatus of a new type. These latter 
are designed to provide more opportunities tor free and dramatic play, new 
op[)ortunities for grcmp play of a highly informal character. This is not to say 
that the free-for-all is an ideal recreation program, but experience has shown 
that, given the chance, children can work out games of their own which may 
prove even more enjoyable than the traditional swings or ball diamonds. And 
in Philadelphia, for example, children who otherwise stay away, seem drawn to 
projects of this type. While the new kinds of apparatus have, in some cases, 
proved more expensive, increased attendance has more than justified the expen- 

New Yorkers will soon have an opportunity to get an idea of the sort of ad- 
vantages enjoyed by children in Oakland, Calif., Boiceville N. Y., and in Fort 
Wayne, Ind. When it opens, public school 130 in the Bronx will have as part of 
its playground plant the first and third prize items from last year's national com- 
petition for new designs in play sculpture ; officials of the National Recreation 
Association and the Museum of Modern Art were among the judges. 

Certain illegal activities, like hitching a ride on the back of a bus, seem to 
provide an excitement with which playgrounds and recreation programs of a 
cut and dried character don't seem to be able to compete. There is a kind 
of thrill, I suppose, in breaking the law ; that is a thrill we cannot permit. But 
surely we have an obligation seriously to consider every sort of project and pro- 
gram that bears promise of meeting that very human desire for a safe scare, a 
limited habard. After all. not every child who may want to gets the chance to 
spend a day at Coney Island. 

Problems of preschool-age children 

At a later date I wish to report on the importance of some recent researches 
dealing with healthy infants confined in institutions or hospitals away from 
their parents for long periods while still of very tender age. It seems that a child 
who misses out on some really close and personalized affection in his first year 
or two is pretty likely to turn out to be an emotional cripple. This extremely 
small segment of our ijopulation has produced a disproportionately large number 
of criminals and maladjusted individuals. Certainly, we already know enough 
to endorse most vigorously the endeavors of welfare workers seeking foster care 
in private homes for all homeless well infants. 

Both the health department and the hospitals department have called my 
attention to the fact that considerable sums are being expended to maintain com- 
pletely healthy but homeless babies in our hospitals because of lack of facilities 
for foster home care.^ It is nothing short of fantastic to contemplate the pros- 
pect of helpless infants being institutionalized for lengthy periods simply because 
we have been lax in making adequate appropriations for personnel who could 
arrange for care in homes. Yet the latter course would not only be the more 
humane, but would cost the city far less money. 

An important welfare department program which will be discussed in the 
above mentioned report provides for 1,000 dependent children who cannot be 
cared for in their own homes. The problem is especially pressing in the case of 
children from certain minority groups — doubly so for older children, whom 
prospective foster parents often feel are "less attractive." The Children's Shelter 
is dangerously overcrowded, yet the bottleneck in the foster home field has still 
to be broken ; capable professionals are needed for a home-finding program. 
Of all this, more at another time. 

''° In addition there are children who could be returned to their own homes if certain 
si>ecial services (more part-time "homemakers" for example) were available. 


Welfare Department 

The staff of our welfare department come in contact with numbers of families 
whose children are in high hazard of becoming delinquents. While such fam- 
ilies represent only a small fraction of the total number of children who receive 
service from the department, it is important that every effort be made to use the 
regular contacts to advantage. The city funds expended for DW staff who work 
with families must be sufl5cient to employ workers with skill to recognize the 
danger signals of strain and maladjustment in children and in families which 
require treatment and to take the necessary steps to help these families. These 
woi'kers must also have the ability to recognize which problems can be treated 
by the department and those which require the help of other public and private 
social agencies within the community. 

The special program this department has been operating jointly with the 
youth board has provided a real idea of what can be done by competent social 
workers, assigned caseloads of reasonable size. Inasmuch as the services for 
families and children is in the process of reorganization, I am at this time 
deferring specific recommendations with reference to the welfare department's 

The pilot study recently initiated by this department which provides pre- 
ventive service on an intensive basis to certain children in public-assistance 
families has also demonstrated what can be accomijlished by competent child- 
welfare workers. 

In concluding this section, mention should be made of an important welfare 
demonstration just a few years ago. An attempt was made to bring together, 
under one roof, a staff that included health, counseling, employment, housing, 
relief, legal, and recreation specialists. A neighbor in need could come to this 
center and employ the skills of a whole battery of experts working together in 
rooms just across the hall from one another. The person in trouble didn't find 
himself shuttling all over town and spending a couple of weeks getting help 
from half a dozen different organizations. 

The experiment to which I have referred was not a project of the welfare 
department ; the department merely was one of the participating agencies. 
But I know how enthusiastically Welfare Commissioner McCarthy responded 
to this opportunity. I believe that a program along the indicated lines can be 
a sound one ; we should muster the necessary forces once again. 

Service opportunities for youth 

There is good reason to believe that contributory to juvenile delinquency 
in many cases are feelings of fear and hatred toward adults, a sense of being 
divorced from society (or at least from the adult community), and a pervasive 
personal insecurity in many vital aspects of the life of a youth. Programs 
oriented to the changing of these attitudes would seem likely to make significant 

Youth-serving organizations have for some time been concerned about provid- 
ing young people with service opportunities. Meaningful work, in units that 
permit a person a sense of achievement, has long been recognized as contributing 
to an individual's self-respect. Yet there are only slim chances of young people 
being involved in projects of a service character that are truly appealing to 
youth themselves. Many adult-conceived enterprises reportedly have the look 
of made work to young people, or are intended to serve ends which the adult 
may appreciate but which may remain obscure to youth. 

Giving youth a chance to help implies work we ourselves regard as of vital 
importance, not some incidental tidying-up operation. Giving youth a chance to 
help means accepting the possibility they will make mistakes on the job now 
and again — and it means being willing to accept the mistakes. Giving youth a 
chance to help means designing projects with an eye to youth participation in 
leadership and control, not service time and again as handmaiden only. 

Perhaps city departments will have youth service projects of their own to 
suggest. But a variety of statutory limitations upon the city make this area of 
operation one probably more feasible for private organization. I know from 
our discussions with them that a number of social agencies would be inter- 
ested in reviewing with any interested donor a number of service programs 
presently awaiting sponsorship. 

A kind of service prcjject which might also be more largely developed under 
private auspices is self-service — by youth for youth. There have been occasions 
in the history of the youth board's street clubs project, when a group which, 
perhaps, had been hanging out in candy stores or on the curb, got together and 


set up their own clubhouse in a vacant store front. Neighborhood merchants 
sometimes provided paint and the brushes with which the boys worked. Some 
undertaliings along these lines were eminently successful; upon occasion, the 
outcome left something to be desired. In principle, however, an opportunity for 
youth to operate directly upon their own concerns would seem to be worth the 
planning. Certainly there is a tremendous range of possibilities in the schools- 
if adult advisors can accord youth any sizable area of free operation. 

The most ambitious efforts in the service area are work camps. Under private 
auspices, mostly by denominational service committees, important projects have 
been undertaken by small work crews in resident settings. And some years ago, 
under public auspices, there were the resident work centers of the National Youth 
Administration, and the forestry camps of the Civilian Conservation Corps. 
I'eople who have spent many years at youth work feel vei-y strongly that a 
broadened conception of one's place in the world is provided by projects along 
these lines, perhaps more effectively than in any other way. 

To live among one's peers ; to be continuously in the company of a few 
friendly, helpful, genuinely interested adults; to have an opportunity both to 
work and to learn ; to be working at something both interesting and important 
(like building new cabins in a children's camp) ; to have some fun in a place 
in some sense one's own ; these are the attraction work camps offer youth. 

While the city cannot undertake any major program along these lines in the 
forseeable future, several private agencies have indicated an interest in this 
sort of project, if they had the money. This is one of a number of projects 
I feel should be brought to the attention of the people of New York, in the 
event new resources could be made available to the interested private agencies. 


I have not discussed the financing of various programs in detail. Most will 
be found to come under formulas for State reimbursement. A number relate to 
areas which may be covered by Federal programs presently under discussion, 
especially the Kefauver bill (S. 728) which not only provides for subsidizing^ 
programs but details adequate administrative procedures as well." 

That we will cooperate with the Govnernor's juvenile delinquency study com- 
mittee goes without saying. But there are even now 1 or 2 matters of special 

The New York City Youth Board, for example (which is the hub about which 
our whole program revolves) carries on from year to year as a temporary agency 
because of the terms of pertinent legislation at the State level. As a result the 
city departments operating programs under youth board subvention — and the 
private agencies, to an even greater extent, are left continually uncertain in the 
projection of any even moderately long-range plans. 

One specific project which might be undertaken in a State agency would 
be the inauguration of special units in the public employment service to provide 
personnel in a position to find jobs and carry on the necessary follow-up on the 
employment problems of maladjusted youth. A few private services are doing 
a notable job in this field, but their resources are pitifully small. Those who 
know the field assure me there are young people ready and able to go to 
work who are getting into trouble simply because we have no really efEective, 
thoughtful, patient placement program to help them. 

The New York City Mental Health Board will play an important part in the 
development of programs for maladjusted youth. 

For example, there are virtually no treatment programs for older boys with 
emotional disorders leading to violent behavior — yet many youths who fall into 
this category could be taken care of without being sent to an institution. There 
is a similar lack of facilities for boys who could make a decent adjust to society 
if there was a cluli of some sort where they could live and have some counseling 
help, while continuing on their jobs or at school. Their families have failed 
them, and in this small but significant number of cases, their homes seem simply 
out of the question for the boys involved. 

Still another need is for large-scale professional training programs over rela- 
tively long periods ; the youth board institutes I have recommended are not 
designed to take college students and make psychiatrists, caseworkers, and the 

« It would be well to bear in mind, however, that only $5 million would be made available 
for all 48 States together, if the bill were passed. 
















like out of thera." They may not even be in a position to provide the major 
retraining vphicli many professionals seem to need in order to worli with some 
more violent youths. 

We have profited in this study by consultation with Dr. Lemkau, and I have 
mentioned specific areas here more by way of example than as specific recom- 
mendations to the mental health board. As its own studies proceed, I am sure 
it will move in on a whole series of problems in our common effort to provide 
better services for delinquent and predelinquent youth. 


We use the term "juvenile delinquent" to apply to children and youths guilty 
of a wide range of misbehavior. Most of these young people fall within the 
normal intelligence range. Their delinquency, in the overwhelming majority 
of cases, is not the outcome of any piiysical or hereditary defect. Most of the 
attitudes we deplore are not in any sense a reflection of brain disorders. 

"Most juvenile delinquents are * * * potentially normal persons whose back- 
ground is lacking in stabilizing influences both culturally and economically." 

We would do well to bear in mind the words of a distinguished psychologist ^' 
from the National Institute of Mental Health, "Delinquency is as general a term 
as bellyache." It is important in approaching this problem that we bear in mind 
that the same delinquency may mean different things in the lives of different 
boys. Stealing, for example, may be the compulsive act of a habitual neurotic; 
or it may be the impulsive satisfying of a whim, a purely transitory phenomenon. 
It may represent a response to what a youngster conceives to be a challenge to his 
ingenuity ; or it may be a hostile gesture against an unfriendly adult ; or it may 
be the irresponsible "borrowing" of someone else's auto for an evening's joyride. 

A crime is a crime and the wrongdoer must be made to answer for it. Yet in a 
very real sense, "circumstances alter cases" and the approach to rehabilitation 
for one offender may prove fantastically inappropriate in the case of another. 

In considering remedial measures we will do well to proceed planfully, not 
acting on imi)ulse, or going overboard for some precious scheme which is designed 
to wrap up the whole juvenile delinquency problem in one neat package. We 
will really start off on the wrong foot if we presume that there is a single appro- 
priate approach to this riddle. 

There are hard facts to be faced. Probably the most authoritative review 
of work in progress in this field, prepared by the United States Children's Bureau 
points out that : 

"The causes of delinquency are numerous both in toto and within the individual 
case. This makes it unlikely that any program will achieve spectacular results. 
Most programs are single-focused. They aim at the elimination or amelioration 
of some condition that the backers regard as especially important in delinquency 
causation. Since, however, these conditions do not operate in isolation — either 
in the community or within the individual child and family — it is not to be 
expected that any single approach to delinquency prevention will be strikingly 

Helping rehabilitate delinquents, preventing youth in hazard from taking 
the delinquent path, requires focusing of skills from a numlier of fields. The 
teacher's knowledge in encouraging the acquisition of essential skills for living ; 
the social worker's understanding of the interplay of emotion and action ; the 
psychiatrist's insight into the deeper motives of behavior ; the psychologist's 
skill in evaluating mental processes — no one alone suffices. 

Programs to cope with delinquency may stand or fall depending ui)on the 
breadth of vision of professionals in those and other fields. Children will be 
receiving something less than the best we can offer, unless these specialists 
(along with religious leaders, guidance counselors, police and court oflScers) 
are, as people, big enough to pull together on a team, to share one another's 

Services to delinquent and pre-delinquent youth have crucial implications for 
the future of our city : 

"Lest the generations of these maimed in childhood, each making the next 
in its own image, create upon the darkness, like mirrors locked face to face, an 
infinite corridor of despair." 

" Our projected school of social work at Hunter College will not be in position to even 
start meeting this need for at least 18 months. 
« Fritz Redl. 






Chairman Kefauver. I am cognizant of the fact that the New 
Yotk Legislatnre did unusually fine work in the area of crime and 
horror comic books and pornographic literature earlier in the year. 
Assemblyman James Fitzpatrick's committee of the State legislature 
did a great deal of serious, conscientious work in this field. 

We have come here with no intention of criticizing New York or 
any other one city or area; rather, we are here to show a nationwide 
picture. We seek and we feel we are entitled to receive the full 
cooperation of all public officials and thoughtful citizens throughout 
the Nation in this effort. Juvenile delinquency in general and 
pornographic literature in particular are problems facing every sec- 
tion. No one area should be singled out for censure. We must work 
together on a cooperative basis to solve this perplexing problem. 

I would like to say at this time that no Senator has given more 
thoughtful attention to juvenile delinquency than my distinguished 
colleague. Senator William Langer, of North Dakota, who is here 
with us today. Senator Langer has personally conducted many 
hearings into this problem in all parts of the country. He has spent 
many hours conferring with those who have worked in this field 
and has conscientiously prepared valuable reports on this subject. 

Since assuming the chairmanship of the Senate Subcommittee To 
Investigate Juvenile Delinquency in February of this year I have be- 
come increasingly concerned during each ]:)assing week with the effect 
pornogTaphic material has on American adolescents and juveniles, and 
with the widespread distribution of this insidious filth. Therefore, 
some 2 montlis ago we directed the subcommittee staff — and I think 
we have a very excellent staff; several of the members being here, our 
chief counsel, Mr. James Bobo, on my left — to make an intensive 
investigation in this field. 

Those of us on the subcommittee first became acutely aware of this 
problem while doing the preparatory 'work for the hearings on crime 
and horror comic books. In the course of our investigation on pornog- 
raphy the subconunittee has sent out more than 200 questionnaires 
to police chiefs in cities with a large population, and to more than 250 
chiefs in small cities, rural areas, and university communities. An 
unusually high percentage of this group is cooperating. 

I say without hesitance that I have been shocked and deeply dis- 
turbed personally by their findings. 

The entire problem was pointed up by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, Direc- 
tor of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, when he said : 

The publication and distribution of salacious material is a peculiarly vicious 
evil : the destruction of moral character caused by it among young people cannot 
l)e overestimated. The circulation of periodicals containing such material plays 
an important part in the development of crime among the youth of our country. 

Many people are under the imjH-ession that pornographic rnovies, 
so-called party records, pictures showing unnatural sexual activities, 
and other material of this sort is produced primarily for stag parties 
and men's smokers. The effect of this material on adults is un- 
doubtedly degi-ading, but the long-range impact on juveniles is far 
more serious; and that is what we are considering here today. 

We shall show by these hearings that a large portion of the market 
for this material is with the inquisitive and impressionable teenagers. 
This means that after young people have been exposed to these porno- 
graphic pictures and movies showing all types of perversion, they 


may tend to regard these things as normal. Indeed the influence is to 
lead them to embrace the abnormal and thus mar youthful lives. 

We are calling witnesses who can testify to the effect this material 
has on the thinking and the habits of youngsters. I think it is time 
that this whole sordid business in insidious filth be brought into the 
open. The traffic in pornography has been growing by hundreds of 
thousands of dollars annually since the war. 

Wliile this traffic has been" growing, sex crimes have increased with 
almost unbelievable rapidity. The statistics speak for themselves. 
A survey by the Federal Bureau of Investigation recently showed that 
during 1953 a sex criminal was arrested somewhere in our Nation 
every *6.7 minutes, day and night. Rape cases have increased 110 per- 
cent'since 1937. More rapes are now being committed by 18- and 19- 
year-old boys than by males in any other age group, and the percen- 
age of rapists under' 20 has approximately doubled since 1940. The 
impulses which spur people to sex crimes unquestionably are intensi- 
fied by reading and seeing filthy material. Certainly something must 
be done about this filth. 

The control of pornography rests with three distinct yet intercon- 
necting groups. They are: (1) The Federal Government; (2) States 
and local communities; and (3) the individual. Generally, none have 
shown sufficient awareness of this acute situation. 

In this respect I believe that the Federal Government has been the 
chief offender. On the Federal level we can stop the importation of 
this salacious material by adequate legislation and increased enforce- 
ment. The Federal Government must also be concerned about the dis- 
tribution of pornographic material through the mails and its trans- 
portation by private automobile in interstate commerce. 

Basically, however, it is the responsibility of the Federal Govern- 
ment to provide leadership in the overall effort to combat the distribu- 
tion of pornographic material. 

On the State level, there is desperate need for improved State stat- 
utes. Several States are showing the way in this respect, and the signs 
are becoming more hopeful in many others. 

I^cal law enforcement and the public interest in this problem still 
tends to be spasmodic and insufficient. This subcommittee means to 
do its best to insure that the Federal Government assumes its respon- 
sibility. I have great confidence that when the facts are known others 
will be willing and anxious to do their part. 

It is my strong feeling and the feeling of my colleagues on the sub- 
committee that the most plausible solution is Federal legislation which 
will stamp out the traffic. We already have several possible bills in 
mind designed to plug the gaping loopholes in existing legislation. 
This subcommittee has already reported 2 bills — Senate bills 599 and 
GOO — which are aimed at tightening Federal control of pornographic 
materials in interstate commerce. These bills were passed by the Sen- 
ate and now await action of the House of Representatives. 

We have come to New York City to hold these hearings because of 
the national and international character of this racket. While it is 
ti'ue tliat New York City has a great deal of difficulty with the dis- 
tribution of pornographic material, this is also true in a great many 
other cities in the Nation. This i)roblem is both local and national. 
Since New York is the most important port of entry, the subcommittee 
felt the national effort would be best helped by holding these hearings 


here. Several parts of the country, inchiding tlie area around New 
York, are used as distribution points to channel the flow of smut into 
villages and hamlets across our great land. The Federal Governmeiit 
is responsible for stopping tlie influx of this material through the 
ports of entry and for its movement in interstate commerce. 

We intend later to hold additional hearings on pornography in other 
parts of the Nation. 

At the very outset let me make clear that the term "pornography" 
as it will be used in these hearings does not refer to legitimate maga- 
zines and books, although many of these border on the pornographic. 
This hearing will not even deal with the so-called art and health books, 
though some of them appear to be nothing more than a shrewd cover 
for pornography. Certainly we have no thought of censorship of any 
sort in mind. No one is more interested in the fullest freedom of the 
press than Senator Langer and me, but freedom of the press does not 
mean a license for indecency. Rather, we are concerned with pub- 
lications and movies which everyone will agree portray and describe 
the basest sexual acts of perversions. 

I have been greatly disturbed as I have looked through examples of 
material confiscated throughout the Nation in police raids. I can- 
not commend highly enough the many police chiefs who have coop- 
erated so splendidly with our subcommittee and with our staff. Most 
are acutely aware of the seriousness of the situation. When I realize 
that much of the pornographic material is actually designed for the 
impressionable juvenile mind, it is certainly obvious that these ma- 
terials could do incalculable damage to the moral and phychological 
fabric of our society through their elfect on youngsters. 

A large mail-order business in pornography is flourishing in every 
section of our land. We have received from many irate parents ex- 
amples of advertisements sent through the mail trying to sell all sorts 
of filth to the very young. From our own State of Tennessee have 
come numerous advertisements of this material mailed orginally to 

Not only do children see movies made by the pornographers, but we 
have examples of the obvious use of children ranging from 14 to 18 
years of age participating in the making of the poronographic films. 
Youngsters are used a great deal to peddle the filth to other chil- 

Pornography is only one of the subjects with which this subcom- 
mittee is dealing. We have held extensive hearings on youth employ- 
ment, the effect of television on young minds, runaway children, 
juvenile courts, problems among Indian cliildren, public and private 
social and welfare agencies, and other subjects. The subcommittee 
also has dealt with the overall problem in some 20 communities ; but 
certainly pornography is an important phase. 

In summary, let me say that in our hearings on pornography here 
and elsewhere we shall explore principally these five fields : 

First, the magnitude of the traffic in obscene and lewd publications, 
pictures, records, and movies. 

Second, the international and interstate ramifications of porno- 
graphy, its production, distribution, and sale. 

Third, the impact of this material on juveniles and the use of juve- 
niles in this traffic. 


Fourth, expanded Federal legislation designed to eliminate this can- 
cerous growth on our social fabric. 

Fifth, advising law-enforcement officials, parents, and others of the 
situation because on them eventual success will rest. 

This, I am sure all of you realize, is a delicate subject with which 
we are dealing. I feel confident that the press, the witnesses and all 
others will handle this problem according to the highest tenets of 
good taste. I do not want to arouse any curiosity among those groups 
which have not seen this sort of literature. On the other hand, I do 
not want to be like the proverbial ostrich and hide our heads in the 
sand to avoid the perplexing problem. 

At one time there were those wlio said narcotics as a problem should 
be avoided. That is, publicity about it. Others have proposed closing 
their eyes to the existence of venereal disease. Experience and the 
tests of time have shown that only by facing up to these problems can 
they be solved. Intensive educational campaigns have reduced the 
incidence of venereal disease. A public awareness of all that is in- 
volved in narcotics addiction has been proved to be a vast help in 
this field. 

This subcommittee proposes to handle pornography in an adult, en- 
lightened, and restrained fashion. No evil can be cured by being- 
ignored. I believe that the healthful sunshine of public opinion is 
the best cure for this problem or any other. We are determined to 
arrive at some substantial results from these hearings. 

Let me say in the begining that because of the rules of the building 
we cannot have smoking in the courtroom. That is difficult for some, 
including the chairman. 

iVlso, some names will necessarily be used by witnesses. For that 
purpose, for that reason we will swear the witnesses, place them under 
oath, and they will testify. Anyone whose name is brought out, if he 
feels that his position has not been properly presented, if he will let 
the staff of the committee know we will immediately give him an 
opportunity of being heard. 

Our staff' has scanned the evidence, gone over it as fairly as possible. 
We don't want to do anyone an injustice. If anyone feels that their 
position has not been properly presented, they will be allowed to 
testify immediately. 

We are honored to have the movie cameras and the TV here with 
us. To the extent that it is feasible and possible, we want all media 
of publication to participate; but any witness who feels that he or 
she would be embarrassed or discommoded by the lights or by tele- 
vision and the movie cameras, if they will let the staff or the subcom- 
mittee know, they will not be asked to testify for television. 

Also, some of these lights are pretty warm at times. 

Senator Langer, do you wish to may any comments before we start? 

Senator Langer. No, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. I think I would probably better swear you re- 

(At this point Chairman Kefauver swore Maxwell S. Lipton and 
H. Schneider to duly report the hearings of the subcommittee.) 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have any comments about 
the hearings before we start ? 

65263 — 55 4 


I might say that our hearing today will have to be cut short at 
about 12 : 30 because Senator Langer and I have to return to the 
Senate to be counted for a vote, which will be held at about 3 o'clock. 
We will have to recess here about 12 : 30. We will have a break at 
about 11, and then we will resume and carry on through until 12 : 30, 

Tomorrow we have, unfortunately, the same situation. We will 
begin at 9 and will carry on, have a short lunch period and carry on 
until about 3 ; then we have to return to Washington for another vote. 

We will be back for the hearings to start at 9 o'clock Thursday. 

Mr. Bobo, do you have a certain resolution that you want to read 
into the record ? 

Mr. BoBO. Yes ; I have. 

Resolved by the subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary 

Chairman Kefauver. Just state what it is. 

Mr. BoBO. This is a resolution authorizing the sitting of this sub- 
committee in New York, with Senator Estes Kefauver and such other 
members as are present and are authorized to take sworn testimony, a 
copy of which is here agreed to by the full membership of the sub- 

Chairman Kefatjver. Also let a copy of the resolution creating the 
subcommittee and the appointment of the subcommittee membere be 
made a part of the record at this point. 

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 2," and read 
as follows:) 

Exhibit No. 2 

[S. Res. 89, 83d Cong., 1st sess.] 

[Omit the imrt .struck through and insert the part printed in itahc] 


Resolved, That the Committee on the Juchciary, or anv duly authorized sub- 
committee thereof, is authorized and directed to conduct a full and complete study 
of juvenile delinquency in the United States. In the conduct of such investiga- 
tion special attention shall be given to (1) determining the extent and character of 
juvenile delinquency in the United States and its causes and contributing factors, 
(2) the adequacv of existing provisions of law, including chapters 402 and 403 of 
title 18 of the Ufnited States Code, in dealing with youthful offenders of Federal 
laws, (3) sentences imposed on, or otlier correctional action taken with respect to, 
youthful offender by Federal courts, and (4) the extent to which juveniles are vio- 
lating laws relating to the sale or use of narcotics. 

*Sec. £. The committee, or any duly authorized subcommittee thereof, is authorized 
to sit and act at such places and times during the sessions, recesses, and adjourned 
periods of the Senate, to hold such hearings, to require by subpenas or otherwise the 
attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, 
to administer such oaths, to take such testimony, to procure such printing and binding, 
and, within the amount appropriated therefor, to ynake such expenditures as it deems 
advisable. The cost of stenographic services to report hearings of the committee or sub- 
committee shall not be in excess of 40 cents per hundred words. Subpenas shall be 
issiied by the chairman of the committee or the subcommittee, and may be served by any 
person designated by such chairrnan. 

A majority of the members of the committee, or duly authorized subcommittee thereof, 
shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business, except that a lesser number 
to be fixed by the committee or by such subcommittee, shall constitute a quoiumfor the 
purpose of administei ing oaths and taking sworn testimony. 

Sec. 3'.?. The Committee shall report its findings, together with its recom- 
mendations for such legislation as it deems advisable, to the Senate at the earliest 
date jjracticable but not later than March 1, 1954. 

Sec. ;* 4. For the purposes of this resolution, the Committee, or any duly author- 
ized subcommittee thereof, is authorized to employ upon a temporary basis such 
technical, clerical, and other assistants as it deems advisable. The expenses of 


the Committee under this resoUition, which shall not exceed $50,000, shall be paid 
from the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers approved by the Chairman 
of the Committee. 

[S. Res. 190, 83d Cong., 2d sess.] 

Resolved, That section 3 of S. Res. 89, Eighty-third Congress, agreed to June 1, 
1958 (authorizing tlie Committee on the Judiciary to make a study of juvenile 
delinquency in the United States) , is amended to read as follows : 

"Sec. 3. The committee shall make a preliminary report of its findings, to- 
gether with its recommendations for such legislation as it deems advisable, 
to the Senate not later than February 28, 1934, and shall make a final report 
of such findings and recommeudatiuns to the Senate at the earliest date prac- 
ticable but not later than January 31, 1955." 

Sec. 2. The limitation of expenditures under such S. Res. 80 is increased by 
^175.000. and such sum together with any unexpended balance of the sum 
previously authorized to be expended under such resolution shall be paid from 
the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers approved by the chairman of 
the committee. 

[S. Res. 62, 84th Cong:., 1st sess.] 

Resolved, That in holding hearings, reporting such hearings, and making inves- 
tigations as authorized by section 134 of the Legislative Reorganization Act 
■of 1946, and in accordance with its jurisdictions specified by rule XXV of the 
Standing Rules of the Senate insofar as they relate to the authority of the 
Committee on the Judiciary to conduct a full and complete study of juvenile 
delinquency in the United States, and including (a) the extent and character 
of juvenile delinquency in the United States and its causes and contributing 
factors, (b) the adequacy of existing provisions of law, including chapters 
402 and 403 of title 18 of the United States Code, in dealing with youthful 
offenders of Federal laws, (c) .sentences imposed on, or other correctional action 
taken with respect to, youthful offenders by Federal courts, and (d) the extent 
to which juveniles are violating Federal laws relating to the sale or use of 
narcotics, the Committee on the Judiciary, or any subcommittee thereof, is 
authorized from March 1, 1955, through July 31, 1955, (1) to make such expendi- 
tures as it deems advisable including no more than $2,000 for obligations out- 
standing and incurred pursuant to S. Res. 49, agreed to February 4, 1955; (2) 
to employ on a temporary basis such technical, clerical, and other assistants 
and consultants as it deems advisable; and (3) with the consent of the heads 
of the department or agency concerned, to utilize the reimbursable services, 
information, facilities, and personnel of any of the departments or agencies of 
the Government. 

Sec. 2. The expenses of the committee under this resolution, which shall not 
exceed $125,000, shall be paid from the contingent fund of the Senate by vouchers 
.t\ppro\'ed by the chairman of the committee. 

Sec. 3. This resolution shall be effective as of March 1, 1955. 


Resolved by the subcommittee of the Committee on the Judicinru to Studi/ 
Juvenile Delinquency in the United States, That pursuant to subsection (3) of 
rule XXV, as amended, of the Standing Rules of the Senate (S. Res. ISO. 81st 
Cong., 2d sess., agreed to February 1, 1950) and committee resolutions of the 
<:!ommittee on the Judiciary adopted January 20, 1955. that Senator Estes 
Kefauver (Democrat, Tennessee), and such other members as are present, 
are authorized to hold hearings of this subcommittee in New York, N. Y., on 
May 23, 24, 25, and 20, and such other days as may be required to complete these 
iiearings, and to take sworn testimonv from witne.sses. 
Agreed to this 20th day of May 1955. 

Thomas C. Hexnings, Jr., 
WiLi-iAM Langer, 
Alexander Wiley, 
Members of Subcommittee to Study Juvenile Delinquency. 


Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Bobo? 

Mr. Bobo. That is all. 

Chairman Kefauver. Our first witness. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Peter N. Chumbris. 


(Mr. Chmnbris was sworn by Chairman Kefauver.) 

Chairman Kefauver. We have a lot of witnesses. We want to get 
to the important points. 

All right, Mr. Bobo, will you proceed ? 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Chumbris, you have a statement there outlining 
the investigation which you have made as a member of the staff, 
showing the data that has been gathered by the subcommittee. I will 
ask you to proceed with your statement. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris is our associate counsel of our 
subcommittee, a very capable lawyer from Washington, D. C, who 
has been with the subcommittee for some time, and is a competent 
and fair attorney; and his investigation in this field has been very 

Mr. Chumbris. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Eealizing the great impact that sucli lewd and obscene pornographic 
matter would have on youth, the subcommittee assigned to several 
members of the staff the investigation to be made of the nature and 
extent of the pornographic traffic in the United States and to deter- 
mine if said traffic were of interstate character. 

During the course of the investigation, I made it a practice to 
visit the police departments of the respective cities and counties or 
the prosecuting attorneys that I visited during the course of the in- 
vestigations and hearings, as well as making special visits to these 
cities. We examined the exhibits that the departments had in their 
files that were taken from the violators of pornography. 

In discussing the matter we obtained much information as to who 
the leading producers and distributors and small stores were that were 
selling this pornography, not only to adults but to many of the 
juveniles. We obtainecl their criminal records, their methods of 
operation and the territories which they covered. 

Throughout this procedure the subcommittee showed that the traffic 
in pornography is interstate in nature and that it is fanned out 
across the four corners of our Nation. 

If you will look at the map on my right here [exhibiting], each 
one of these dots represents various activities as is indicated at the 

The related dots represent actual reports that we have received 
from the chiefs of police that pornography is being sold to juveniles. 
The blue dots indicate the cities that one distributor alone in Houston, 
Tex., fans out his operations in all of those cities. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, it is hard to see just what the 
cities listed in the files of the Southwest distribution is. I cannot see 
what colors they are. Generally where does one man out of Houston 
operate ? 


Mr. Chumbris. The one man out of Houston, for instance, are these 
black dots [indicating], and you can see them all along in liere. They 
go up into Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, into Louisiana, Mississippi, 
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, part in Tennessee, Missouri. They go 
into Colorado, into two towns in New Mexico, and into Los Angeles, 
San Francisco, Sacramento, on north. They even reach up to Ta- 
coma. Wash. ; and that is one distributor from Houston, Tex. 

Incidentally, the subcommittee worked with the police department 
of Houston, Tex., in apprehending this person who had that great 
traffic in distributing pornographic materials. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is there any reason why you cannot tell us 
w^ho he is? 

Mr. Chumbris. That will be brought out later, Senator, during the 
course of these hearings. 

Mr. BoBO. The man you are referring to, is that Ed Florance, of 
Houston, Tex.? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. And it was approximately about 
a week ago that this raid took place and this great haul was made 
by the police department of Houston. 

Mr. BoBO. It is true this man's operations extended into Canada, 
South America, and Mexico ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That is correct, Mr. Bobo. Some of the cities and 

Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute. "Wlienever you want to take 
any pictures, turn these lights on ; but it is awfully hot. I don't know 
how we can arrange that. If you cannot, just say so. 

Mr. Chumbris. Some of the cities and States from which informa- 
tion was received from the police departments and other city and 
State officials were : Philadelphia, Pa. ; New York City, N. Y. ; Pitts- 
burgh, Pa.; Chicago, 111.; Detroit, Mich.; Milwaukee, Wis.; Cleve- 
land, Oliid; Miami, Fla.; St. Louis and Kansas City, Mo.; New 
Orleans, La.; Los Angeles, Calif.; Connecticut; and various cities 
in such States as Connecticut, Ehode Island, Massachusetts, North 
Carolina, the State of Washington, and several others. 

From these personal interviews and in corresponding with these 
officials, the subcommittee was able to determine that certain individ- 
uals were known in many of these cities and States, and were known 
to be large distributors of pornographic matter in many parts of the 

Several key witnesses will present testimony of the extent and 
nature of the interstate character of the filthy pornographic traffic; 
most of them are representatives of the police departments of these 
various cities. 

Now, at the outset it would be interesting to note that with the 
changing of the times has also come a change in pornographic matter. 
Back in 1900 many States had inaugurated statutes to stop the traffic 
of pornography, but in those days they were little 2-by-4's known 
as "Maggie and Jiggs" books, little pamphlets, a few pictures. But 
today the business has become highly specialized. We have film, we 
have film in color, we have film with sound, we have wire recordings, 
tape recordings, records, playing records; we have booklets in color, 
and the usual type to which I have already referred. 

Many of these statutes have been unaltered throughout the years, 
and because of this new influx of the type of pornogTaphic material 


we have received from the various officials of the various States the 
complaint that the statutes need to be changed to meet this new prob- 
lem that now confronts them. 

Chairman KErAu\=rER. That is true of the States' statutes, but it is 
especially true of our Federal statutes. 

Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. Federal statutes 1461, 1462, 1463, 
and 1464, a copy of which I have here and which I Avould like to intro- 
duce into evidence- 
Chairman KEFA^T^'ER. Let them be printed in the record. 
(The documents referred to above were marked "Exhibit No. 3," 
and are as follows :) 

Exhibit No. 3 

Sec. 1461. RL^iling Obscene or Crime-Inciting Matter 

Every obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, paper, letter, 
writing, print, or other publication of an indecent character ; and 

Every article or thing designed, adapted, or intended for preventing conception 
or producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral use ; and 

Every article, instrument, substance, drug, medicine, or thing which is adver- 
tised or described in a manner calculated to lead another to use or apply it for 
preventing conception or "producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral 
purpose ; and 

Every written or printed card, letter, circular, book, pamphlet, advertisement, 
or notice of any kind giving information, directly or indirectly, where, or how,^ 
or from whom, or by what means any of such mentioned matters, articles, or 
things may be obtained or made, or where or by whom any act or operation of any 
kind for the procuring or producing of abortion will be done or performed, or how 
or by what means conception may be prevented or abortion produced, whether 
sealed or unsealed ; and 

Every letter, packet, or package, or other mail matter containing any filthy, 
vile, or indecent thing, device, or substance ; and 

Every paper, writing, advertisement, or representation that any article, instru- 
ment, substance, drug, medicine, or thing may, or can, be used or applied for 
preventing conception or producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral pur- 
pose; and ' *| 

Every description calculated to induce or incite a person to so use or apply any 
such article, instrument, substance, drug, medicine, or thing — ■ 

Is declared to be nonmailable matter and shall not be conveyed in the mails 
or delivered from any post office or by any letter carrier. 

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, anything declared by 
this section to be nonmailable, or knowingly takes the same from the mails for 
the purpose of circulating or disposing thereof, or of aiding in the circulation or 
disposition thereof, shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more 
than five years, or both. 

The term "indecent," as used in this section includes matter of a character 
tending to incite arson, murder, or assassination. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, sec. 1, 
62 Stat. 768. efE. Sept. 1. 1948.) 

Sec. 1462. Importation or Transportation of Obscene LiTEuATtmE 

Whoever brings into the United States, or any place subject to the jurisdiction 
thereof, or knowingly deposits with any express company or other common 
carrier, for carriage in interstate or foreign commei'ce any obscene, lewd, las- 
civious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, motion-picture film, paper, letter, 
writing, print, or other matter of indecent character, or any drug, medicine, 
article, or thing designed, adapted, or intended for preventing conception, or 
producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral use ; or any written or 
printed card, letter, circular, book, pamphlet, advertisement, or notice of any 
kind giving information, directly or indirectly, where, how or of whom, or by 
what means any of such mentioned articles, matters, or things may be obtained 
or made ; or 

Whoever knowingly takes from such express company or other common 
carrier any matter or thing the depositing of which for carriage is herein made 
unlawful ■ 


Shall be liued not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or 
both. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, see. 1, 62 Stat. 768, eff. Sept. 1, 1948.) 

Sec. 1463. Mailing Indecent Matter on Wrappers or Envelopes 

All matter otherwise mailable by law, upon the envelope or outside cover or 
wrapper of which, and all postal cards upon which, any delineations, epithets, 
terms, or language of an indecent, lewd, lascivious, or obscene character are 
written or printed or otherwise impressed or apparent, are nonmailable matter, 
and shall not be conveyed in the mails nor delivered from any post office nor liy 
any letter carrier, and shall be withdrawn from the mails under such regula- 
tions as the Postmaster General shall prescribe. 

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, anything declared by 
this section to be nonmailable matter, or knowingly takes the same from the 
mails for the purpose of circulating or disposing of or aiding in the circulation 
or disposition of the same, shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not 
more than five years, or both. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, sec. 1, 62 Stat. 769, eft. 
Sept. 1, 1948.) 

Sec. 1464. Broadcasting Obscene Langtjage 

Whoever utters any obscene, indecent, or profane language by means of radio 
communication shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more 
than two years, or both. (June 25, 1948, eh. 645, sec. 1, 62 Stat. 769, eff. Sept. 1, 

Mr. Chumbris. Of statutes prohibiting obscene, pornographic, lewd 
matter from being mailed or transported across State lines, or being 
brought into the United States. 

Now, we also go into the State laws, and, Mr. Chairman, I also 
have here a summary of the State laws of the 48 States that I would 
like to have presejited here this morning. 

Chairman Kefauver. That will be printed in the Record as an 
exhibit in your testimony. 

(The document referred to above was marked '"Exhibit No. 4," and 
is as follows:) 

Exhibit No. 4 

The Library op Congress, 
Legislative Reference Service, 
Washington 25, D. C, May 19, 1955. 
To : Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency. 

Attention : Mr. Schonberger. 
From : American Law Division. 

Subject : Minimum and maximum penalties imposed for violations of State laws 
pertaining to obscene and pornographic materials. 


Posting or leaving obscene picture or printed matter near a church, school, 
highway, etc. — Fine of $10 to $500, or punishment at hard labor by the county 
up to 12 months. 

Introducing, advertising, or selling obscene material. — Fine of $50 to $1,000. 

Display of nude pictures in public places, except galleries. — Fine of $50 to $500. 

Code (1940) Lit. 14 §§ 372-374. 


Preparation, advertisement, distribution, sale or exhibition of obscene mate- 
rials. — Imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or fine up to $300, or both. 

Code Ann. (1939) §§ 43-110; 43-3002. 


Circulation, offer for sale, and sale of obscene materials. — Fine of $100 to $300 
for first offense ; $500 to $1,000 for second offense. 

Selling, offering for sale, or possessing any materials, the shipment of which 
has been rejected by the United States mails, or which the Federal Government 
will not permit to be shipi)ed or handled. Fine of $50 to $100 ; each day of vio- 
lation being a separate offense. 

Stat. Ann. (1947) §§ 41-2704, 41-2706 to 41-2708. 



Imprisonment in county jail up to six monttis or fine up to $500, or both, for 
tlie first offense ; or imprisonment in state prison for not less than one year for 
subsequent offenses. — Penal Code (Deering, 1949) §§ 19, 311. 


Fine of $100 to $2,000 with costs, and imprisonment in the county jail up to 
one year. 

Rev. Stat. (1953) § 40-9-17. 


Imprisonment up to two years, or fine up to $1,000, or both. 
Gen. Stat. (1949) § 8567. 


Fine of $250 to $2,500, or imprisonment for 30 days to three years, or both ; 
and fine of $500 to $5,000, or imprisonment for six months to five years, or both, 
for subsequent offenses. 

Code Ann. (West, 1953) ch. 11 §§ 711-712. 


Imprisonment in state prison up to five years, in the county jail not exceeding 
one year, or fine up to $100. 
Stat. Ann. (1944) §847.01. 


Imprisonment for one to five years ; or, on jury's recommendation, a fine not 
to exceed $1,000 or imprisonment up to six months at work on the public roads, 
or on other public works, not to exceed 12 months, or or more of these penalties. 

Code Ann. (1953) §§ 20-6301 ; 27-2506. 


Imprisonment in county jail up to six months; or fine not exceeding $300, 
or both. 

Code Ann. (1948) §§ 1&-113, 18-4101. 


Imprisonment in county jail up to six months, or fine of $100 to $1,000. 
Ann. Stat. (Smith-Hurd, 1935) ch. 38 § 468. 


Fine of $10 to $200, to which may be added imprisonment up to 90 days. 
Stat. Ann. (Burns, Supp. 1953) §10-2805. 


Imprisonment up to one year, or fine up to $1,000. 
Code Ann. (West, 1950) § 725.4. 


Fine of $5 to $300, or imprisonment up to 30 days, or both, for dealing in obscene 
literature; fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment from 30 to six months, 
or both, for publishing such literature. 

Gen. Stat. Ann. (Corrick, 1949) §§21-1101 to 21-1102. 


Fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment from 10 days to one year, or both. 
Rev. Stat. (1953) §436.100. 


Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to two years, or both. 
Rev. Stat. Ann. (West, 1951) Tit. 14 § 106. 


Fine of $100 to $1,000, and imprisonment up to five years for publishing and 
circulating obscene materials. Fine of $25 to $100, or imprisonment up to six 
months, or both, for circulating such materials among minors. 

Rev. Stat. (1954) ch. 134 § § 24, 27. 


Fine up to $200. or imprisonment up to one year, or both. 
Code Ann. (Flack, 1951) art. 27 §515. 



Imprisonment up to two years, or fine of $100 to $1,000, or botb, for first 
offense ; imprisonment of six months to two and one-half years, or fine of $200 
to $2,000, or both, for subsequent offenses. These penalties apply to sales or 
distribution of obscene literature to persons under 18. 

Imprisonment up to two years, or fine of $100 to $1,000, or both, for sale or 
distribution of obscene pamphlets, records and pictures, and books. 

Ann. Laws (Supp. 1954) ch. 272 § § 27-28B. 


Imprisonment in county jail up to 90 days, or fine up to $100, or both, for first 
offense ; imprisonment up to one year, or fine up to $500 for second oft'ense ; im- 
prisonment up to four years, or fine up to $2,000, or both, for third and subsequent 

Stat. Ann. (1938) §§28.575-28.577,28.577 (1), 28.771-28.772. 

Imprisonment of 90 days to one year in county jail, or fine of $100 to $500, 
or both. 

Stat. Ann. (West, 1947) § 617.24. 


Fine up to $500. or imprisonment in county jail up to six months, or both. 
Code Ann. (1942) §2288. 


Fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both. 
Ann. Stat. (Vernon, 1953) §563.280. 

Imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or fine up to $500, or both. 
Rev. Code (1947) §§94-116, 94-3601 to 94-3603. 


Fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both. 
Rev. Stat. (1943) §28-921. 


Fine of $500 to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail from 6 months to 1 year, 
or both. 

Comp. Laws (Hillyer, 1929) §§ 9968, 10144. 

New Hampshire 

Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to 6 months, or both. 

Rev. Laws (1942) ch. 441 §§ 14-17 ; am. Laws 1947 ch. 73 ; 1953 ch. 233. 

New Jersey 

Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment up to 3 years, or both. 
Stat. Ann. (West, 1953) §§2A: 85-7, 2A : 115-2. 

New York 

Imprisonment from 10 days to 1 year, or fine of $150 to $1,000, or both, for 
each offense. 

Penal Law (McKinney, Supp. 1954) §1141. 

North Carolina 

Common law penalty for misdemeanors ; presumably by imprisonment in 
county jail up to 1 year, or fine in the discretion of the court, or both. 

Gen. Stat. Ann. (Michie, 1944) §§ 14-1 to 14-3, 14-189. 

North Dakota 

Fine of $5 to $100 ; or imprisonment in county jail up to 30 days, or both. 
Rev. Code (1943) § 12-2109. 


Fine of $200 to $2,000, or imprisonment up to 7 years, or both. 
Rev. Code (Page, 1954) §2905.34. 

Fine of $10 to $1,000, or imprisonment from 30 days to 10 years, or both. 
Stat. Ann. (West, Supp. 1954) Tit. 21 § 1021. 



Imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or fine up to $500, or both. 
Rev. Stat. (1953) § 167.150. 


Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to 1 year, or both. 
Stat. Ann. (Purdon, 1945) Tit. 18 § 4524. 

Rhode Island 

Fine of $100 to $1,000, or imprisonment up to 2 years. 
Gen. Laws (1938) ch. 610 § 13. 

South Carolina 

Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment up to 2 years, or both. 
Code Ann. (1952) §16-414. 

South Dakota 

Fine up to $500, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both. 
Code (1939) §§ 13.0607, 13.1722. 


Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both. 
Code Ann. (Williams, 1934) §§ 10756, 11190. 


Fine, up to $100. 

Penal Code Ann. (Vernon, 1952) art. 526. 


Fine up to $300, or imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or both. Cor- 
porations may be fined up to $1,000. 

Code Ann. (1953) §§76-1-16,73-39-1. 

Fine up to $200, or imprisonment up to 1 year. 
Stat. (1947) §8490. 


Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to 1 year, or both. 
Code Ann. (Michie, 1950) §19-265; (Supp. 1952) §18-113. 


Publishing detailed accounts of adultery, sexual crime, or of evidence of im-. 
moral acts offered in court: Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail 
up to 1 year, or both. 

Sale, possession, distribution, or exhibition of obscene material : Fine up to 
$250, or imprisonment in county jail up to 90 days. 

R. C. W. (1951) §§ 9.68,010, 9.68.020, 9.92.020, 9.92.030. 

West Virginia 

Fine up to $1,000, and imprisonment up to 1 year. 
Code Ann. (1949) §6066. 


Imprisonment in county jail from 3 months to 1 year, or imprisonment in State 
prison from 1 year to 5 years, or fine of $100 to $5,000. 
Stat. (1951) §351.38. 


Fine up to $100, to which may be added imprisonment in county jail up to 
6 months. 

Comp. Stat. (1945) §9-513. 


Chairman Kefauver. Incidentally, in that connection, a New York 
law has been amended, an admirable effort to do something about this 
problem, in the last legislature. 

Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. Senator. And I will point out that 
there are several other States that have seen the light in view of the 




1 O - S5(Fi.ce p. 521 


mounting complaints by police officials, by the courts themselves, and 
by the legislators themselves. We have had several statutes that 
have been amended to make it more stringent, and also to take in 
pornographic matter that was not previously covered by the laws. 

For example, here are some of the quotations that we have received 
from chiefs of police and other officials. 

City of St. Paul, Minn. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, will you make it clear the 
number of inquiries sent out to the chiefs of police ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. As you stated in the opening statement, 
Senator, we sent out questionnaires to all cities in the United States 
with a population of 100,000 or more. Besides that, we sent them to 
the State capitols of the States in which the population does not quite 
reach 100,000, and also to the larger cities in some States which do not 
quite reach 100,000 population. (See map.) 

We also sent them to the towns where there are colleges or other 
large concentrations of youth, to see if there is any specific traffic 
going into prep school areas and colleges, and Army camps, and so 

From the returns that we have received, which are still incomplete 
returns, I have these following quotations which will point out the 
problem that the States have in dealing with this pornographic ma- 

In St. Paul, Minn. : 

I believe that penalties for the niauufacture of such materials should be so 
strong as to discourage any repeating Ity violators. The State legislature is 
now in the process of passing new laws tightening restrictions on this matter. 

The State legislature of Wisconsin at the present time has under 
consideration more stringent bills for violation of the obscenity laws of 
the State. 

In Minnesota, the police department of the city of Minneapolis 
states : 

In some cases, we do not feel that our laws, either State or local, are adequate 
to cope with the so-called art magazines and photos. Without any question, 
certain of these magazines would be detrimental to the minds of juveniles. 

The police department of city of Worcester, Mass. : "Penalties are 
not sufficient," is their answer to the question propounded : 

In your opinion, are ii^nalties render«rJ for these offenses sufttcient to act as 
a deterrent to committing the offense? 

At this time, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to present a copy of 
the questions that we sent out to these various police officials through- 
out the country. 

Chairman Kefaua^r. Let it be printed in the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5," and is as 

Exhibit No. 5 

April 12, 19.55. 

Chief of Police 


Dear Mr. 

This subcommittee, in investigating the overall problem of juvenile delinquency, 
has become concerned with certain special problems. One of these is the manu- 
facture, distribution, sale, and possession of pornographic materials. A pre- 


liminary survey of the problem revealed valuable information and secured leads 
to persons connected vpith the traffic in this insidious filth. 

Another special problem which lias an impact on youth is the so-called white- 
slave racket, of which the subcommittee is seeking further information. 

In order to determine the nature, extent, and national scope of these opera- 
tions, answers to the following questions will prove most beneficial to the sub- 
committee. Staff investigators will be available to follow up leads furnished 
by you. 

1. Please list the names (with aliases) and addresses of all persons arrested 
and/or convicted in the past 2 years in your .inrisdiction of the production or 
distribution of pornographic literature of any kind. 

2. Will you make any photos, criminal records, or other information of the 
above available to the subcommittee? 

3. Please furnish names and addresses of accomplices of the above, even though 
not arrested or charged with violation of the obscene-literature statutes or 

4. Please give the names and addresses of owners of buildings where porno- 
graphic literature was produced, stored, or sold. 

5. Please furnish names and addresses of persons, other than above, known 
to be engaged in manufacture or sale of pornography. 

6. In your opinion, is traffic in pornogi-aphic material in your jurisdiction 
extensive, medium, or light? Is it directed to adult or children? 

7. In your opinion, are penalties rendered for these offenses sufficient to act 
as a deterrent to committing the offenses? 

8. In your opinion, are State and local laws adequate to cope with the problem? 

9. Do you have samples of pornographic materials? If so, will you make them 
availal)le for subcommittee staff inspection? 

10. Do you have evidence or reason to believe that persons dealing in porno- 
graphic materials are connected with a ring or other criminal activity such as 
narcotics or white slavery? 

11. Please furnish copies of any lists of customei's you may have confiscated 
from persons dealing in such materials. 

12. Please furnish names and addresses of all persons arrested in the past 
2 years in your jurisdiction on charges of white slavery. 

Any suggestions you might care to make on measures designed to curb the 

traffic in pornography and/or white slavery will be greatly appreciated and will 

be given serious consideration. The above questions are posed with the idea 

that they will be a guide in submitting the information the subcommittee desires. 

With kindest i>ersonal regards, I am, 


EsTES Kefauver, Chairman. 

Mr. Chumbris. The chief of police from Gary, Ind. : 

In our poinion, the sentences should be greater, especially where juveniles are 
the purchasers. 

Chief of police of Durham, N. C. : 

In my opinion, the penalties rendered in these cases should be more severe — 

and, further — 

I believe that the State and local laws should be made stronger with respect to 
obsence literature. 

Chief of police, city of Norfolk, Va. : 

In my opinion, State and local laws are adequate to cope with the problem, 
however, I feel that the punishment should be more severe. 

Chief of police of Dallas, Tex., states: 

In my opinion. State and local laws are not adequate to cope with the problem. 
Under Texas laws, violations of this type are claimed as misdemeanors. 

And we find tliat to be the case in many States, that they are misde- 
meanors and not felonies. 

The city of Los Angeles has an interesting statement : 

Under our present laws. It is sometimes difficult to obtain convictions that 
discourage future participation by the defendant, because the sentence imposed is 


quite often negligible. It is generally felt that if such a conviction would require 
registration as a sex ofliender, the frequency of repeaters would drop noticeably. 
Uniformity of the laws pertaining to pornography would be of great value insofar 
as the liaison between police agencies is concerned. Many acts constituting 
a violation of the Los Angeles municipal code sections are not illegal acts in 
other States and cities. 

As to our questionnaires, we also received some very pertinent in- 
formation as to ho\Y (lie traffic reaches individual juveniles. 
Rochester, N. V. : 

Violator was charged with possessing indecent pictures. Officer found sub- 
ject showing indecent pictures and books to a group of 13-year-old girls in front 
of No. 14 School on University Avenue. Subject pleaded guilty. 

This was in 1954. in March. 
Columbus, Ohio : 

Subject now in Ohio State Penitentiary — used juvenile girls for models to lewd 

I might point out tliat the State of Ohio has one of the stiffest penal- 
ties for pornographv. It is up to 7 vears in the penitentiarv, and 
$2,000 fine. 

I would also like to point out that the subcommittee, in official busi- 
ness in North Dakota, conferred with the judiciary committee of the 
house, in which the opinion of the subcommittee was asked, and they 
accepted the recommendations of the subcommittee, and they now 
have one of the most stringent laws, most up-to-date laws, dealing 
with pornography. 

They even provide for the confiscation of the equipment, so that 
the man cannot go back in business. I understand that that is one of 
the fe^y States in the United States that does have that law in effect. 

Chairman Kefauver. By "equipment" you mean not just films, 
you would mean the projector and the others? 

Mr. Chumbris. The projector, the automobile that transports the 
pornography into other States, any type of equipment they may 
have. Because we have found instances where the city police say: 

We throw up our hands ; we grab a man with $.50,000 worth of pornography, 
and his equipment, his car, and they burn up the pictures and so forth; they 
give him back his car, they give him back his equipment, and right away he 
is setting up business again in another town after he gets out of the jurisdic- 
tion of that particular court. 

Seattle, Wash., going back to places where juveniles are purchas- 
ing or are being confronted with pornographic matter : 

That where there is pornographic material, it is somewhat difficult to deter- 
mine what is directed specifically to adults or to children. As long as it is 
in a community, it appears to us that it is available to either. 

Trenton, N. J. : 

Subject sold indecent and obscene literature and pictures to juveniles. Con- 
victed of violation of the crimes act. sentenced to 18 months. 

Senator Langer. Mr. Chumbris, would you say that the North 
Dakota law would be a model for other States to follow ? 

Mr. Chumbris. I think so. Senator. I think it would be an excel- 
lent law, especially the provision of confiscation of the equipment. 
Our subcommittee last year introduced such a bill in the Congress 
of the United States covering the District of Columbia, where we 
■do now have jurisdiction, and that bill did not pass; but it will be 
considered again by this Congress. 


Chairman Kefauver. As a result of our hearings in North 
Dakota, and Senator Langer, that the legislature out there did change 
the law in North Dakota ; is that correct? 

Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. We appeared before the judiciary 
committee, and they follovvcd our suggestions. They asked us for 
our suggestions, and they followed them to the letter. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. Chumbris. Los Cruces, N. Mex. In answer to a question of 
how much of the pornographic matter reaches minors, the chief of 
police answered : 

Approximately 75 percent of the pornograpbic material reaches minors. 

Des Moines, Iowa : 

As mentioned previously, some of these pornographic books were found in 
one of our schools by a teacher who chanced to notice a group of boys looking 
at them, they notified police and more of the booklets were found in subject's 
store, hidden in the back counter. The boy who obtained the books had worked 
at the store after school hours. Subject was arrested a second time for pos- 
session of pornographic booklets. 

In this instance some of the materials were found on children in 
elementary schools, not junior high or high school, but elementary 

On a complaint from a father who claimed a photograph dropped from his 
daughter's school book, the subject was arrested and found to have 600 porno- 
graphic pictures and 7 reels of film depicting lewdness at its worst. The sub- 
ject stated that the salesman was driving a car with New York plates. 

Yakima, Wash. 

Chairman Kefaum^r. Just a minute. You spoke of a pornographic 
material being found among kids in elementary school. Does it indi- 
cate what age group that is ? 

Mr. Chumbris. In this report it did not. This was taken from the 
questionnaire that the chief of police sent us. But children of ele- 
mentary school 

Chairman Kefauver. That would be 12 or under, 13 or under? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's right. From 6 to 12, 13 would be the high- 
est age of the children in elementary school, I would assume. 

Yakima, Wash. : 

In December, 1954, it came to the attention of the police department that a 
number of juveniles in one of the junior high schools had in their possession some 
lewd pictures. Subject was arrested and charged with possession of obscene 
photographs and fined $50 and given a 30-day jail sentence. Subject, an amateur 
photographer, stated he borrowed the pictures and made a set of negatives. He 
admitted printing over 400 of these pictures. 

South Hadley, Mass. : 

Pornographic material of lewd playing cards and pictures were strewn about 
a pond that is frequented by children in the neighborhood. The ages of the 
children were of school age — S to 10 years of age — and pupils of Woodlawn 
School here in town. In all. I would say about 25 to 30 pictures were turned 
over to the police department. 

Minneapolis, Minn. : 

This letter was from a criminologist : "I gather that the use of pornographic 
movies is extensive among university and high school students in Minneapolis. 
Matteson, in the State bureau of apprehension, says that he doubts whether 
any college student goes through 4 years without being exposed at least once 
to a pornographic movie. Recent graduates of the University of Minnesota con- 
firmed this. If so, there is extensive distribution of which the jwlice are un- 
aware or in which they are impotent." 


Paducah, Ky. : 

In answer to our question of estimate of pornographic material getting to 
minors, the answer is, "about 75 percent."' 

Manchester, N. H. : 

Subject, aged 18, was arrested for giving obscene booljs away and for showing 
obscene boolis. He pleaded nolo contendere to both counts and was placed on 
probation for 6 months. 

Raleigh, N. C. : 

Subject was convicted of selling sexy comic books to high school students and 
was given 12 months sentence. It seems to me that this could be more effectively 
attacked on a nationwide basis, because that is the only basis whereby the 
sources can be controlled. 

This is still the quotation from the chief of police : 

If this department may be of further service to you or your committee, 1 
assure you that we shall endeavor to do so to the best of our ability. 

Harrisonburg, Va. : 

Recently we received a complaint of a svibject selling these materials, and 
subject had been selling this material to high school students. 

Wilmington, N, C. : 

During the entire investigation of obscene literature we received information 
that this literature had filtrated throughout the schools of the county and that 
it could be purchased by anyone who applied for it from the Finer or the Carolina 
Camera Shops. 

West Allis, Wis. : 

Subject had 22 obscene films in his possession. He was showing them in his 
basement, and 12 juveniles came to our attention who had viewed these films. 

Boy 12 years old picked up with a telescope that had a picture of a nude 
woman in it. This boy took this from the bureau of his older bi'other, who had 
purchased it from an unknown man in a tavern. 

Boy 17 with two obscene pictures, origin unknown. Boy was picked up as 
a prowler, was referred to juvenile authorities. 

St. Louis, Mo. : 

The pornographic material has been known to find its way into schools, as 
was true in the case of three individuals who were charged with sale and dis- 
tribution of pornographic literature. 

Eddyville, Ky. : 

Pornographic literature is being sold to minors at numerous gasoline filling 
stations in this area. 

Burlington, N. J. : 

Pornographic literature is being sold at quite a number of the newsstands. 
Nine minors have committed Illegal sexual acts as a result of reading this 

New York, N. Y. : 

Pornographic literature is being >'old at several bookstores in New York 

Philadelphia, Pa. : 

Pornographic literature has stirred up male youth, who consequently go out 
and commit "gang rape." This mass rape is an integral part of the juvenile gang 
warfare system. Its frequency is underestimated, and that is because many of 
the victims are afraid to report these crimes to the authorities. 

Boulder, Colo. : 

What percentage of this traflBc would you estimate reaches minors? 


The answer : 

If any traffic, would suppose that most of it is among schoolchildren. 

City of Long Beach, Calif. : 

Ti-afRc in pornographic material is light in this jurisdiction, and it is mainly- 
directed to adults — 

meaning that still some of it goes to juveniles. 

Buffalo, N. Y. : 

Our last i-eferral to the youth bureau of the Buffalo Police Department was in 
connection with the distribution of pornographic literature and obscene comics 
among schoolchildren in the local area. 

Boston, Mass. : 

Subject was found guilty of rai>e of a 16-year-old girl, and investigation of 
premises revealed 50 photos of pornographic nature. There are other instances 
of individuals being charged with sex offenses and exhibiting obscene material to 
9- and 10-year-old girls. 

Cleveland, Ohio : 

Nude sequence photographs found in subject's house, with girls in photos 
obviously juveniles. 

Baton Rouge, La. : 

Examination of case records (three such cases) tend to show, as does past 
experience in our department, that the nature of tliis pornographic literature is 
reaching students and children of junior high and high school age brackets. 

Denver, Colo. : 

Subject charged with attempting to molest two teen-age girls, was found to 
have six small pulp magazines of pornographic nature in the glove compartment 
of his car. 

This bears out, Mr. Chairman, the opening statement where J. Edgar 
Hoover states that the growing sex crimes committed by 17- and 18- 
year-old boys — they read the stuff, and they go out and molest these 
young girls. 

Several cities, such as the city of Roanoke, Va., state tliat they are 
unable to say what percentage of the pornographic traflic Avould reach 
minors, indicating there tliat it is there, but they cannot break it down 
as to how much goes to adults and how much goes to minors. 

Phoenix, Ariz. : 

In answer to our question of whether traffic is directed to adults or children, 
the answer was directed to juveniles. 

The police further state : 

It is our suggestion that parents of juveniles be impressed with the necessity 
of training their children to report any display of or attempt to sell them 
pornographic literature. 

I think that is a sentence that can be well borne in mind by the 
parents of America. 

Now we come to advertisements by mail. We are going to have 
witnesses from the Post Office I)e])artment who, will give us their 
problems and the full picture; but I would like to point out that in 
this mailing of pornographic material, first they have these name lists 
where the companies, A, B, C, for instance, at a certain address, will 
send out these circulars. Tlie circulars are very, very suggestive. 
The question is. How to stop that advertising from getting to these 
minors, because we are receiving many complaints. 


Name lists is a bio; business. Some of them are very, very legiti- 
mate; they are very legitimate name lists of juveniles used by baby- 
clothing stores and baby-food operators, and so forth; but somehow 
or other these certain individuals will obtain these name lists from 
legitimate sources, by hook or crook, and then take and turn around 
and sell these name lists and make a terrific amount of money. 

In one of the cases that we will present during the course of these 
hearings I personally examined the material that was contiscated by 
the police department, and they had a hie case that is almost as big as 
some of our governmental agencies, full of name lists that this man 
had at his command, over 100,000 names of different persons, and he 
concentrated as much as possible, as much as he could, on juveniles. 
I mean, that seemed to be the big business to them. 

In order to see how that operation went into effect, the subcom- 
mittee used a procedure used by the Post Office Department. A defi- 
nite name and address was taken, a letter was written to those people 
who advertised in these magazines of these type of photos and films 
that are supposed to be of a shady nature. It was written in the hand- 
writing of a juvenile, on high-school stationery, sent to these adver- 
tisers. None of the advertisers attempted to find out whether the 
letter which was written on high-school stationery in juvenile hand- 
writing was a person underage or overage. He immediately sent the 
order that was requested. 

That type of advertising is a headache to the Post Office Depart- 
ment, and I am sure they will bring it out in full during the course 
of these hearings. 

That name-list business is big business, and it has stumped the 
law-enforcement agencies as to how best treat it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Tell us in a little more detail how the name 
list works. These pornographic outfits get the name lists and they 
send something not only suggestive literature, but they don't exactly 
describe what it is ? 

Mr. CiiUMBRis. That's right. They give you an idea that it is of 
the lewdest type, and the person answer, and the first time they 
will send you back something that will be, let's say, a nude picture 
which they think that they can get by without prosecution from 
the law. 

Then what they hope to do is establish a relationship, and the next 
order will be for more of the pornographic, until finally, we believe 
and we do hope that we will be able to establish that before we com- 
plete our investigation on pornography, that the first orders are 
come-ons, and finally they go into the lewd filthy, pornographic mate- 
rial. And this goes to juveniles. 

Chairman Kefauver. A big part of it is with juveniles? 
Mr. Chumbris. A great amount of it is with juveniles. 
As a matter of fact, one of the pictures that we received was of a 
boy in the nude, part of it was blacked out, but that boy couldn't 
have been more than 15 years old, from his appearance. 
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir, v»nll you proceed. 
Mr. Cnu^rBRis. The other ma]i that you see there [indicating] on 
the board, the smaller map is the one dealing with returns that we 
have received from police officers showing traffic to juveniles alone; 
I mean traffic to juveniles. So you can see how well it is spread 

65263—55 5 


out throughout the country, and that is only a 20-pei'cent return on 
the questionnaries that we have received. 

I have just one more topic to discuss, Mr. Chairman, and that is a 
specific case that I am going to present here this morning, one in 
which the police officers of that city are not here to testify, and since 
I personally made the investigation and know, examined the court 
records and talked with the police officers, I know of it personally of 
my own knowledge, and I would like to explain that case to you now. 
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Chumbris, on this mail-order business which you 
have been discussing, I think also involved in that business are a 
number of dildoes, d-i-1-d-o-e-s, as they are referred to in the trade, 
of a sexual nature, that have been going out in the mails to youngsters 
as young as 12 and 13, of which I believe we have evidence in our 
files. . . 

I think also you have within your information, it could be within 
your possession this morning, a number of letters advertising these 
books, the messages from the parents, showing the widespread opera- 
tion of it, concerning Gallatin, Tenn., which deals in this material; 
concerns New York and Los Angeles, and various other cities aroimd 
tlie country. 

Do you have any more information on the mailing lists? I know 
that you referred to baby foods and diai^er sliops. I don't think that 
the mailing list would be obtained from baby foods and diaper shops 
for the mailing of this material. 

Mr. Chumbris. That's one of the leads. The baby foods and diaper 
shops have legitimate name lists. Somehow or other these people who 
oi)erate in mailing lists will get some of these names from that list. 

For example, in these sample letters that we sent out they were sent 
to certain, let's say, three different companies. Then a month or so 
later 4 or 5 companies with whom no correspondence was had sud- 
denly got hold of the names, which indicates that there is a method 
of transferring names, exchanging names, or in some instances it 
might be — well, I couldn't exactly explain what their method of 
procedure is, and that is one of the problems that we would like to 

Mr. BoBO. In your investigation with this subcommittee, is it not 
true that we have uncovered instance after instance where children 
would answer a magazine ad, in either a comic book or a legitimate 
trade magazine, and at a later date he would receive through the mail 
advertisements for material of a pornographic nature? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. 

Mr. BoBO. That might be mailable, and then at a later time the 
more lewd stuff would be presented to him ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's right. And how they would get those names 
we have not definitely establisiied that; but it is being clone. 

ISIr. Bobo. Presumably a mailing list from answers to adver- 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. 

Mr. Bobo. All right. Suppose you continue. 

Mr. Chumbris. In this case, the Saxton case, which was in Pitts- 
burgh, Pa., one Louis Stevens Saxton, of 4204 Verona Boulevard, 
Pittsburgh, Pa., was arrested on October 25 of 1951 and charged with 
the manufacture and statewide distribution and sale of obscene 


Mr. BoBo. Mr. Chumbris, is this the case that you are speaking of 
now, the man who was operating from the jail cell ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. Then after he was convicted ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Let's get his name again now. 

Mr. Chumbris. His name is Louis Stevens Saxton. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have his criminal record ; you have the 
official records? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. We have his record; we have his mug; 
everything was furnished to us by the police department. 

He was convicted and was serving time. While he was in jail he 
contacted an accomplice known as Clarence Meade Barnes, who was 
on the outside. Clarence Meade Barnes continued the operations on 
the outside while Saxton masterminded from the jail. He was also 
indicted with Barnes on that particular offense and was also sentenced. 

Chairman Kefauver. Was that a big operation ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes ; it was quite a big operation. The interesting 
part of the operation was that besides manufacturing the pornographic 
material they actually acted as distributors; they were known dis- 
tributors ni the East who would make big drops of this particular 
material in the Pittsburgh area, and Saxton would be tlie person who 
would handle it. 

For instance, in a letter from Saxton to Barnes, which was written 
in code and then later Barnes explained to 

Mr. BoBo. Mr. Chumbris, do you have a copy of that letter in your 
files ? 

Air. Chumbris. That's up in the files of the subcommittee. 

Barnes, in finally revealing tlie full statement to Lieutenant Carna- 
han of the police department of Pittsburgh, stated that the letter was 
in code. For instance, they would use the word "jeAvelry." Every 
time they used the word "jewelry" it referred to pornography. If it 
said '^$50 worth of jewelry," it meant that it was $50 worth of pornoo-- 
raphy. If it mentioned "John owes $50 for jewelry," it meant that 
John owed $50 for pornography, "Will you go bv and pick up the 
cJiecks, ' and so forth. 

In it the actual operations were explained by Barnes to the police 
officer, how Saxton had him go ahead and print these "Maggie and 
Jiggs" books, and Barnes went ahead and did it. He admitted that 
he went ahead and produced it. 

Mr. BoBo. When you speak of "Maggie and Jiggs" books, Mr. 
Chumbris, I think you should explain what a "Maggie and Jio-o-s" 
book is. *"= 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. I mentioned earlier, when I was explainincr 
the different types of pornography, the "Maggie and Jiggs" books are 
two- by- fours, they are books 2 inches by 4 inches ; they are also known 
as 8 pages, because it contained 8 thin pages. They are caricatures 
they are cartoons. They usually take people from the comic strips' 
or famous movie stars, and they portray them in very lewd, perverted 

T.-^?^^l^'"^'^^^ Kefau\t^r. You are not getting us mixed up with Bud 
±1 islier 5 

Mr. Chumbris. No. That is very legitimate operation. Not only 
Maggie and Jiggs, but almost every known legal comic strip in the 
business, their characters are being stolen and placed into these filthv. 
lewd books. '' ' 


Chairman Kefau^t.r. Plagiarized, is that what you call it ? 
Mr. Chumbris. That's right. 

Chairman KEFAm'ER. I think it would be well to get this letter and 
put it in the record, and let the press see it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any further questions on the Saxton 

case ? 

Chairman KE^Au^^=:R. How long is this letter that you have ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Well, the first letter is about a page long, and the 
questions and answers are approximately three pages long. 

Chairman Kefauver. What are the questions and answers? 

Mr. Chumbris. That was the interview. 

For instance, he says, "What is your full name?" This is the 
interrogation of the witness. And then he explained the full opera- 

For instance — I may read part of it 

Mr. BoBO. Would you read the letter into the record? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. [Reading:] 

Dear Bud : Sorry you were not able to get over to the hospital before I left. 
Alice said that you and Margaret were over, and that you called last week. 
Do hope you and' the family are all well. No doubt, I will have to return to the 
hospital and have my leg amputated ; it is much worse, and nothing can be done 
here ; it is a tough decision to have to make. 

And I do believe that that means that he would like to get back into 
the business, when he is referring to a statement of that type. 

Did want to ask you a few questions. You do not have to write and answer 
them, but I remember a few things that may help out in a business way. Did 
you ever get the color formula from Mr. Wilner? Believe he has to have it in a 
week or so, for you. How is your friend in Kinsman? You said you talked 
with him, and he wanted to get 4 of your $8 size watches. 

Mr. Martin (consultant to subcommittee) . Mr. Chumbris, will you 
show the relationship between the reference to the $8 watch and the 
corresponding information from his accomplice which established 
what he means ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. He says here, for instance, the next state- 
ment that he has — 

How is your friend in Kinsman? You said you talked with him and he 
wanted to get 4 of your $8 size watches. No doubt they will cost him $30 each, 
but they are worth it. 

Now, who is Kinsman, and what does he mean by "these watches" 
and the price? Kinsman is a man from Ohio, and as far as the 
watches, it means 8-millimeter film, movies, and the price is $30 each. 
That's the way they go all the way through the letter. 

Chairman Kefauver. Put the letter and the questions and answers 
into the record ; let them be printed in the appendix and made part of 
the record. The letter is received. 

(The information referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6," and is as 

February 3, 1953. 
To : Mr. C. M. Barnes, 514 Cato Street, Pittsburgh, Pa. 

Dear Bud: Sorry you were not able to get over to the hospital before I left. 
Alice said that you and IMargaret were over, and that you called last week. Do 
hope you and the family are all well. No doubt. I will have to return to the 
hospital and have my leg amputated ; it is much worse, and nothing can be done 
here ; it is a tough decision to have to make. Did want to ask you a few ques- 
tions. You do not have to write and answer them, but I remembered a few 


things that may help out in a business way. Did you ever get the color formula 
from Air. Wilner? Believe he was to have it in a week or so for you. How is 
your friend in Kinsman? Yon said you talked with him, and he wanted to get 
4 of your $S-size watches. No doubt they will cost him $30 each, but they are 
worth it. Did Ben ever drop around? Oh, I owe Nick $17.50 in case he wants 
any jewelry. Have you seen Whitey lately? You should see him some evening 
when you go bowling. Papy, no doubt, has not seen the advertising match dis- 
play, or has he? Wish yovi would call Jonney, the bakery salesman, up, or 
Margaret could call. The best time is on a Saturday morning between 10:30 
and 11. The name you have. He can use those five $16 watches at $30 plus the 
2 special ones you have in the same size. He said he would need them. The 
specials I told him you wanted $70 for the 2. Did your other friend collect that 
$50 for the check that was returned? Should Margaret call Jonney this Satur- 
day, have her tell him to give Alice the $50 he owes me for perfume, as I need it 
for insurance payments ; and he should pay Margaret for the watches he takes. 
Did your friend finish all the advertising matches, less what he spoiled? You 
should keep count of what you receive. You could pay him what is due when 
Jonney pays for the jewelry. Give Alice any balance due. By the way, I know- 
that George, your pal in Murrysville, was asking about you. I told him I would 
tell you. Would you write a letter to Mrs. Sofle Levy, 2092 Tinker i;>rive. Ocean- 
side, N. Y., and explain to her that I did not know about the insurance check 
until you advised me? Tell her that as soon as possible tlie amount will be sent 
you for the balance due on the fur coat. Also tell her it would not be advisable 
to come to Pittsburgh during the bad weather, but you will let her know. Hope 
you get to see your pal from Kinsman. Of course you could call him up. Keep 
Alice advised, but be sure and have Jonney leave the $50 with her ; and his 'phone 
number I believe you have. Should going out past Whitey's, tell Alice 
to give you two bottles of perfume to give to his wife. Say hello for me. HoiDe 
you understand everything. The fireworks display business should begin to book 
their orders soon. Sure could use a good year. Best wishes and regards to all 
of you, and get your match advertising finished and pay it ofl". Did you pay the 
bili at Shield's Rubber Co.. How's the car doing? You could look at the ther- 
mostat in Alice's car. It does not work. Also, the trunk door lock. Write me 
when you can. 

Yours always. 


P. S. — Those 2 special watches I told him were $70. 

This is the statement of Clarence Meade Barnes, white, aged 42, of 514 Cato 
Street, Pittsburgh, Pa. It is taken in the office of Assistant Superintendent of 
Police Adam A. Geisler under the direct examination of Acting Lt. Allen Carna- 
han, the interrogator and James Patton, city detectives. Narcotic Squad. Also 
present in the room while the statement is being typed is Margaret Barnes, wife 
of Clarence Barnes. J. H. Gamble is the typist. Statement is begun at 4:05 
p. m., February 23, 1953. 

Q. What is your full name? — A. Clarence Meade Barnes. 

Q. How old are you? — A. 42. 

Q. AYhere do you live? — A. 514 Cato Street. Pittsburgh, Pa. 

Q. Are you married or single"? — A. Married. 

Q. Are you employed? — A. Yes. 

Q. Where? — A. Westinghouse Electric Corp., East Pittsburgh, Pa. 

Q. Now, Clarence, do you understand that you are under arrest by this de- 
partment charged with the manufacture, possession, and sale of obscene liter- 
ature, pornographic pictures, obscene movies and books'? — A. I know I'm here 
because I had that "junk." 

Q. AVe are going to ask you to give us a statement concerning this charge 
against you. Before you give us this statement in your own words in answer to 
our questions, we wish to advise you of your rights. You will not be forced to 
say anything here, but what you do say may be used against you or for you at the 
time of your trial in a court of law. Do you understand this? — A. All right. 

Q. We also wish to advise you that you have the right to secure legal counsel, 
an attorney, if you so desire. Do you iniderstand this'.'' — A. Yeah. 

Q. And now that you understand what we are doing here and your rights have 
been explained to you, are you still willing to go along with us and to answer the 
questions in your own language that we may ask you? — A. That's right, I'm 

Q. Clarence, this obscene material that we confiscated from your home on 
Saturday, February 21, 1953 ; do you own that? — A. No. 

Q. Who owns it? — A. Lew Saxton. 


Q. I am goinj; to show you Pittsburgh police photograph No. 12979 and ask you 
if you can identify that pictui-e? — A. Yeah, that's Lew Saxton. 

Q. How long have you known Saxton? — A. About 3 years, I think. I trans- 
acted business with him before he went to the vet's hospital at Aspinwall. 

Q. How long have you had this obscene merchandise in your home? — A. Since 
about a week before Christmas of 19.">2. 

Q. Explain in your own words how he contacted you. — A. By telephone from 
the vet's hospital to my home. 

Q. Then did you go to the veteran's hospital to see him? — A. Twice. 

Q. Explain your conversation there, and what he asked you to do in regards to 
this material. — A. He asked me to take it into my home and keep it there until 
he was released by the police. Also, to manufacture novelty named "Maggie and 
Jiggs" with no price given on manufacture. He said he would take care of me. 
That was the first visit, and on the second visit, he wanted me to manufacture 
of French Ticklers, still no price given. 

Q. Did you asiree to do this? — A. Yeah. 

Q. When were these two visits that you made to the hospital? — A. Thanks- 
giving Day, and one, 2 weeks later. 

Q. Did he give you any of the material at that time? — A. No. 

Q. When was this material delivered to your home? — A. Johnny, the baker, 
brought it on a Saturday, the first part of December. 

Q. Ho brought all of the stuff, Johnny, the baker brought all of the merchan- 
dise?- — A. No ; he didn't bring all of the stiiff, he brought the stuff for the French 
Ticklers, the rubbei'S ; for the rubbers. 

Q. Who is this Johnny, the baker, and do you know what his telephone num- 
ber is? — A. No ; I don't know his last name, all I know him by is Johnny. 

Q. Do you know where Johnny got this rubber for the French Ticklers that he 
brought to you? — A. From Lew Saxton at the vti^'s hospital. 

Q. Was this cut up in small pieces? — A. All ready cut; ready to assemble. 

Q. Who else brought oliscene material to your home? — A. His first name is 
Jack ; that's all I know him by. 

Q. Anyone else that you can name that brought this type of material into your 
home? — A. Just that Mr. Levy. 

Q. Do you know where he lives? — A. Yes. 

Q. Where? — A. Oceanside, N. Y. 

Q. What did he bring to your home? — A. Cartoons, movies, cards, French 
Ticklers, obscene pictures. 

Q. Did you pay for any of this material? — A. No. 

Q. Did Saxton tell you what you were to do with it? — A. Hold it, and he would 
call me when somebody was to pick up. 

Q. Did you ever collect any money for any of this material? — A. $12, I think 
it was. 

Q. From who?- — A. I don't remember. 

Q. Did anybody pick any of this stuff up at your home? — A. Yes, Johnny, the 
baker salesman. 

Q. Did you receive a letter from Lew Saxton from the Allegheny County 
Workhouse dated February 3, 1953? — A. Yes. 

Q. I am going to ask you some questions about this letter; first one thing (is 
this a copy of that letter you received) ? — A. Yes. 

Q. Clarence, in one statement in this letter it says, "Did you ever get the 
color formula from Mr. Wilner, believe he was to have it in a week or so for you" ; 
what did Saxton mean by "color formula"? — A. When ticklers are finished, they 
are dipped into a color so that the end of the tickler is whatever color you want it. 
That was what he meant. 

Q. The next statement that he has he says, "How is your friend Kinsman, you 
said you talked with him, and he wanted to get 4 of your $8 size watches, no 
doubt they will cost him .$30 each, but they are worth it." Now, who is Kinsman, 
and what does he mean by these watches and the price? — A. Kinsman is a man 
from Ohio; as for watches, it means 8-mm movies (millimeter). The price is 
$30 each. 

Q. Are these obscene movies? — A. Yes. 

Q. Did Kinsman get these movies? — A. No. 

Q. The next sentence in the letter, Saxton asks, "Did Ben ever drop around?"; 
who is Ben, and did he ever drop around ; did you ever sell him anything? — 
A. He's the individual who delivered rubbers to be manufactured into ticklers 
to my home. He never dropped around ! I never sold him anything. 

Q. Do you know Ben's last name? — A. No. 


Q. The next statement, "Oh, I owe Nick $17.50, in case he wants any jewelry" ; 
who is NiclvV — A. I don't Ivnow the last name ; he lives in the Turtle Creek Valley ; 
I have his telephone number at home. 

Q. What does Saxton mean that he "owes Nick $17.50 in case he wants any 
jewelry"? — A. Referring: to jewelry means merchandise of obscene material. 

Q. Did you give Nick any obscene pictures? — A. Yeah, 

Q. Approximately when? — A. February 3, 1953. 

Q. IIow much merchandise did he receive from you? — A. About $17.50 plus 
about $6.50 more which he said he would pay later. 

Q. Did you do any business Avith a man named Whitey that Saxton mentions 
in his letter? — A. I went to see him at the gasoline station on Route 22; it's 
called Gravity Fill : about 6 miles past Wilkinsburg, past the Turnway Inn. 

Q. Did you sell Whitey any merchandise? — A. Cards and matches 

Q. I'.y liiatches, you mean obscene matches? — A. Obscene matches, the same 
with the cards. 

Q. The next statement in Saxton's letter says, "Papy, no doubt, has not seen 
the advertising match display, or has he?"; who is I'apy, and where does he 
live? — A. I think he owns a bar in East Pittsburgh. 

Q. What does Saxton mean by the "advertising match display"?— A. He means 
matches with obscene pictures on them. 

Q. Where did you get these matches? — A. Were delivered to my home by a 
fellow named Jack. 

Q. Did you collect any money from Whitey for matches? — A. Yes; about $20; 
was used to pay Jack for matches. 

Q. Did you order these matches made up, or did Saxton ? — A. Saxton. 

Q. The next statement in Saxton's letter states : "wish you would call Johnny 
the bakery salesman up, the best time is in the morning between 10 : 30 and 11 : 00 ; 
the name you have he can use those five $16 watches at $30 plus the 2 special ones 
you have in the same size" ; will you explain that statement in your own words? — 
A. Did not contact Johnny. In regards to five $16 watches means, 16-mm. movies ; 
that's obscene movies ; 2 specials is the same thing. 

Q. Next Saxton says : "Did your other friend collect that $50 for the check that 
was returned," what does he mean by this in this statement? — The $50 was for 
merchandise received ; the check liounced, but he finally made it good. 

Q. Who was the check from ; who signed the check? — A. I don't know his name. 

Q. The next statement in the letter says: "Should Margaret call Johnny this 
Saturday, have her tell him to give Alice the $50 he owes me for perfume as I 
need it for insurance payments, and he should pay Margaret for the watches he 
takes"; what does he mean by this statement? — A. In the first place, Margaret 
didn't make any contact with him. $50 means price of merchandise received from 
Mr. Saxton. 

Q. Next he says : "Did your friend finish all the advertising matches less what 
he spoiled, you should keep count of what you receive, you could pay him what 
is due when Johnny pays for the jewelry, give Alice any balance due" ; Clarence 
explain that statement? — A. The advertising matches are not finished; in the 
second place, Johnny did not buy. 

Q. Who is Alice, and where does she live? — A. Alice is Lew Saxton's girl friend ; 
lives on Homewood Avenue. 

Q. Does she handle any obscene material? — A. No. 

Q. The next statement : "I know that your pal George in Murrysville was asking 
about you. I told him I would tell you" ; who is George, and what is his connec- 
tion with this ring? — A. George was a possible buyer but did not buy any 

Q. Did you try to sell him some merchandise? — ^A. Yeah, Lew sent me out there. 

Q. Now the next statement : "Would write a letter to Mrs. Sofie Levy, 2992 
Tincker Drive, Oceanside, N. Y., and explain to her what I did not know about 
the insurance check until you advised me ; tell her that as soon as possible, the 
amount will be sent you for the balance due on the fur coat" ; Clarence, will you 
explain what Saxton means by this statement? — A. I wrote a letter explaining that 
Lew did not know the insurance check was no good ; that he would pay the amount 
as soon as possible plus the balance. 

Q. What does he mean by the fur coat? — A. Obscene merchandise. 

Q. He further states in the letter to "tell Mrs. T^evy it would not be advisable 
to come to Pittsburgh during the bad weather, but you will let her know" ; what 
does Saxton mean by that? — A. He (Lew Saxton) could not contact Levy here 
in Pittsburgh. 


Q. He next says : "should you be goins out past Whitey's, tell Alice to g:ive 
you two bottle of perfume to give to his wife" ; what does he mean by this, 
statement? — A. I suppose he actually means perfume there; I didn't stop at 
Alice's at all. 

Q. Have you ever taken any money to Lew Saxton? — A. No. 

Q. Is there anything that you can add to this statement? — A. [None.] 

Q. Clarence, after you and your wife have had an opportunity to read this 
statement over, and if you tind that it is true to the best of your knowledge, 
are you willing to sign it and to swear that you have told the truth? — A. Yeah. 

Q. Have you been treated properly by Superintendent Geisler and the officers 
in the detective division of the Pittsburgh Police Department? — A. -Very true. 

Q. And the answers to the questions have been typed just as you have given 
them and are your own words, is that right? — A. Right, it is correct. 

(Signed) Clarence M. Barnes, Jr. 

This statement has been read by the deponent, Clarence Meade Barnes, after 
which, it was sworn and subscribed to before me, the undersigned authority on 
this 23d day of February, 1953. 

Hector R. Mariani, 

Notary Public. 


James Patton, 

Mrs. C. M. Barnes, Jr., 



On Thanksgiving Day, received $40. and some odd cents from Lew Saxton to 
pay for a punch press for assembling "Maggie & Jiggs." Press purchased from 
Star Stapling & Products Company, 929 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh. There was 
also 2,000 eyelets on the order received for the above amount. Press ordered by 
Lew Saxton, picked up be me. 

(This additional information typed hereon by J. H. Gamble, Stenographer.) 

(Signed) J. H. Gamble. 

[seal] H. R. Mariana. 

(Signed) J. H. Gamble, 


Chairman Kefau^tsr. Go ahead, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. In conclusion, I would like to summarize, since the 
subcommittee has started its investigations and has had a certain 
amount of pornographic discussion at some of the community hear- 
ings throughout the country, we have been able to accomplish certain, 
what I think, are successful results. 

For instance, as I explained earlier, in working with the Houston 
police, that big raid of the Southwest distributor was made. As I 
mentioned earlier, the North Dakota statute was changed to give it 
one of the most 

Mr. Bono. Will you let me ask you there. Are you speaking of 
the Police Department of Houston, Tex., or the Sheriff's Department 
of Houston County, Tex. ? 

Mr. Chumbris. It was the Sheriff's Department of Houston County, 

And the North Dakota statute was changed as I stated. 

Further, on one of the trips that I was making on this porno- 
graphic investigation, in Michigan a grand jury went into the ques- 
tion of pornographic literature. I went over and talked to the 
district attorney and to the district judge there, explained to him 
what we were trying to do. They gave us all of the cooperation that 
we could possibly expect. They gave us a full report of their findings. 


In many areas, civic and religious organizations united to conduct 
cleanup campaigns, to clean up this pornographic mess that has been 
sweeping throughout the country, not only the dirty, lewd pornog- 
raphy that we are talking about today, but they are also attacking 
the borderline pornogra])hy, and some of the ])inup magazines that 
are found on the newsstands, especially those around the schools and 
the churches. 

Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, two questions. 

In your survey and the returns you have gotten from the police 
chiefs is there any question about that pornography among juve- 
niles — and that is what we are concerned with here — that it does 
have a degrading effect, leading to the marring of the lives of many 
of our young people, and also increasing the amount of juvenile and 
criminal activity among children? 

Mr. Chumbris. There is no question about it. I think that prac- 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that the concensus of all the police chiefs? 

j\Ir. CiiiorBRis. Every one of them. They even went so far as to 
say that this is one filthy mess that has got to be cleaned up, and 
that's why they are so anxious about more stringent laws and more 
severe punishment, because most of them will say, "I don't want my 
children to run into any of this." 

Chairman Kefauver. Is it also the result of your inquiries to show 
that as the extent of the distribution of pornography among the 
juveniles increases in a given section, you have a corresponding in- 
crease in deliquency and sex crimes? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct; absolutely. 

Chairman Kefauver. Along the same line as set forth by Mr. 
Hoover on a national scale ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Now, sir, can yon give us any estimate — be- 
fore that. Does your investigation show that over the last few years 
the publication and the distribution of ]^ornogra]:>hy among children, 
teen-agers, has been substantially on the increase? 

Mr. Chitmbris. From the information that I have received there is 
a definite increase of pornography going to children, and there is a 
definite increase of pornography that is being distributed through- 
out the United States. And they are bringing in a new type of pornog- 

Some people are remarking about the number of pornographic 
records, pornographic phonograph records spreading out throughout 
the country. 

Chairman Kefauver. And this is in all parts of the United States, 
even Tennessee I believe you said ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. I believe we have another chart 
there, the Baltimore, the Houston, and the one from the South. 

Chairman Kefauver. Finally, sir, can you give any estimate of the 
size of this lousiness? 

Mr. Chumbris. Well, the one in Baltimore — this wnll portray the 
size. If I may mention it from here [indicating], this is a point where 
it started. One shipment 

Chairman Kefauvfj?. That is Baltimore ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's right. And all of these big blocks indicate 
where this shipment went by railway express. The total value of just 


one sliipment was $30,000 declared value, with an estimated retail 
value of $250,000. Mind you, that's just one shipment that that man 

Mr. BoBO. Isn't that 291 railway express shipments, Mr. Chumbris? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. 

Mr. Martin. I think, Mr. Chumbris, what you want to say is that 
these are shipments from just one source. 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. From the Baltimore source. 

Chairman Kefauver. This fellow got convicted the other day, did 
he not ? 

Mr. Chumbris. He was convicted in Federal court in Baltimore. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is his name ? I think this is an inter- 
esting case; we ought to have some description of it later on. Are 
you, or will somebody else describe what happened in this Baltimore 
case ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. Well, we will have the assistant United States 
attorney who will be here; and we have policemen, the inspector from 
Washington, and Sergeant Brown from the Detroit Police Depart- 
ment, who will give specific cities and the operations from those cities. 

This [exhibiting] is a picture as it was taken of these packages as 
they were impounded, with the addresses where they are going. And 
the different value is illustrated that Avas declared for the various 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Chumbris, this photograph, as I understand it, 
represents one of the 291 shipments? 

Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. And one of the 291 shipments apparently has 
87,9G0 pieces of pornography. 

Mr. Chumbris. That's right. 

Photograph of seizures by the United States (Jovernment of 87,900 pieces of 

Chairman KEFAU^^ER. These pictures and charts will all be made 
exhibits in the record. 

Go ahead, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Chumbris, have you received any information as to 
the size or the volume, dollarwise, outside of this one case here, as to 
what this traffic miglit be throughout the United States ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Well, I have asked that question and because of the 
fact that — let me answer it first with one illustration. 

We asked the customs officials 

Chairman Kefauver. They will be here to testify ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. We asked tliem a question, how much 
comes into the United States? And they said that, "We are only 
able to ascertain or get hold of 5 percent of tlie traffic." So 95 percent 
gets by them. 

The same thinir can be applied to the various police departments. 
They can't possibly estimate at this particular time, I don't think a 
complete survey has been made or might not be able to be made because 
of the fact that it is just getting so gigantic, and every day we are run- 
ning into distributors like Soloday, for instance, who has a $250,000 
retail value from just that one outlet. 

Chairman Kefauver. Now, will some witness other than you de- 
scribe the fact that from the United States is shipped a lot of pornog- 


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raphy to other countries, and from other countries a lot is shipped 
to us? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. That will be taken care of by one of our other 

Chairman KEFAu^^R. Very well. Is there anything else? 

Senator Langer, do you have any questions to ask Mr. Chambris ? 

Senator Langer. Mr. Witness, what is a bondage photo ? 

Mr, Chumbris. A bondage photo are these photos where the girl 
wears very little clothing, practically nude, and usually their hands 
and their legs are bound together either by chain or by rope, and they 
are known as bondage photos. 

Senator Langer. I inquired because you say "nudes and bondage 
photos." I never heard that term used before. I thank you. That's 
all, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you, Mr. Chumbris. 

Our next witness, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Father Daniel Egan. 


Chairman Kefauver. No one can ever question your veracity, but 
if you mention any names I think I should place you under oath. 

Father Egan. I won't mention any names. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well. 

Father Egan, it is a pleasure for the chairman to see you again. 
I know over the course of a long time your interest in the young boys 
and young people, especially with the problem with which we are 
dealing here today. We are grateful to you for coming here and 
giving us the benefit of your experience and findings on this important 
problem affecting our children. 

Mr. Bobo, do you want to ask Father Egan any preliminary 
questions ? 

Mr. BoBO. Yes. I would like to ask Father Egan briefly some 
questions, describing your work. Father, that you had and the contact 
you have with the young people. 

Father Egan. I am a priest, ordained just 10 years. In the past 
10 years I have been specializing in high school and teen-age missions. 

During the course of a year I might travel from Louisville to 
Cincinnati, to Cleveland, to Detroit, to Piochester, to Boston, to Brook- 
lyn, to the South, to city after city. Today I go to Boston. 

Chairman Kefauver. Before you tell your experiences, Mr. Bobo, 
for the record, because we can always see the Father, but the record 
must be presented. Let's get how old he is, who he is, how long he 
has been a Father, what his assignment is. 

Father Egan. I will be 11 this year. I am ordained 10l^ years. 

Mr. BoBO. In what order are you ordained ? 

Father Egan. I am a Franciscan, from a monastery at Graymoor, 
Garrison, N. Y. 

Mr. BoBO. And how long have you been ordained? 

Father Egan. 101/2 years. 

I am on what we call a mission bend, and we go from city to. city 
giving missions ; some of our Fathers go to the foreign missions. 

Mr. Bobo. And your full name ? 


Father Egan. Father Daniel Egan. 

Mr. BoBO. Now, Father Eaan, would you tell us some of the things 
of which 

Chairman Kefauver. Is this a special work that you are designated 
to do, Father Egan ? Will you give us the background of your assign- 
ment and what you have undertaken ? 

Father Egan. I received requests from various cities to conduct 
high school retreats in Catholic schools, and also to go to cities that 
do not have Catholic high schools and conduct teen-age missions in 
the evening for Catholic students who go to public schools, and many 
Protestants and Jewish children, and teen-agers attend as well; they 
are all mixed up. 

So I, well I get the kids in the church for an hour and 10 minutes 
every evening, and I talk to them about their problems. During the 
course of the week's mission their problem does come up. In talking 
to me on the streets, or on the corners, the problem of the pornographic 
literature is increasing. 

Mr. BoBO. Father Egan, would you tell us where you have been, in 
what cities you have been, and how manv years you have been doing 

Father Egan. I have been in teen-age missions in Louisville, Cin- 
cimiati, Cleveland, Rochester, Boston, Washington, Brooklyn — well, 
too numerous to mention in 10 years. 

Since February I have been in Cleveland, Washington, Boston, 
Jersey, up in Cornell University — well, cities like this. 

Mr. BoBO. And in the cities do you hold youth meetings ? 

Father Egan. Throw-aways ai-e given out in the public high schools 
a week or two beforehand announcing a teen-age mission. 

AU yom- problems are frankly discussed. God's point of view with regard to 
your troubles. 

Then the kids come sometimes ; in Springfield last year we had 1,200 
kids every night; tlie following week 1,600 kids every night. And 
these were by and large 75, 85 percent of them public high school kids. 

Chairman Kefauver. I did not understand how many you said you 
would have every night. 

Father Egan. It would vary with the city. Senator. In Spring- 
held we had 1,200 every night. In the following week in Holyoke 
we had 1,600 every night. 

Starting tonight up in Gardiner, Mass., there will be a series of 
teen talks. I don't know how many to expect. 

Mr. BoBO. After you have had these talks with them, and you have 
talked to them, do they then come to you for counseling ? 

Father Egan. Yes. So naturally from here on in, if you ask me 
any questions, since I am a professional man, I will say that I have 
encountered this literature in a Midwest city, in a Northern city, or in 
a Southern city, uidess you demand that I specify the city. Would 
it do any good if I mentioned the mime of the city ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Sure. Tell where you found it. 

Mr. BoBo. I think if you would tell us the city where you found it, 
it would show the interstate traffic in this matei'ial. Father. 

Father Egan. Since February I have seen this pornographic liter- 
ature in Cleveland, Washington, and in New York City. I have 
seen it, looked at it. The kids brought it to me. 


Mr. BoBO. You speak of pornographic literature. Of what type 
are you speaking now, Father ? 

Father Egan. I do not mean the magazines that are very lurid and 
filthy and sexy that can be bought on newsstands. I rather mean the 
type of literature that might be printed as this [indicating], and then 
circulated through high schools, sold to a kid on the corner, or just 
sold to them any place. 

Mr. BoBO. You mentioned that you have seen this in this city. Have 
you seen it in the hands of teen-agers or j^ounger ? 

Father Egan. Yes. In one city I was conducting, I usually con- 
duct a parent night to arouse a public indignation against this con- 
dition, to get the parents aware of it. Most of them are not aware 
of it. So, in this particular city, I asked 2 of the boys, 15 years of 
age, would they go out and buv me some real filthy literature. They 
said, "What kind do you want?" 

I said, "Real filthy." 

They said, "How much money do you want to spend ?" 

I had a $5 bill with me. I gave it to them. Inside of an hour 
they brought back some of the material I sent back to your office. 

Mr. BoBO. In the city of Washington, was that where this particular 
thing happened ? 

Father Egan. No; this was in Cleveland. 

I mean now by pornographic literature, the specific kind that 
shows in a degrading way, and in unnatural ways the act of sex 

Mr. BoBO. Father, in traveling around the country you have be- 
come acquainted with college campuses. Have you known on these 
campuses of the showing of pornographic stag party films ? 

Father Egan. At fraternity houses, I know that they are shown to 
just stag parties. 

INIr. BoBO. Would you say this was very widespread among the 
high schools and colleges? 1 am speaking now of the films. 

Father Egan. I am not in a position to say; I do not work too 
frequently on the college level. 

Mr. BoBO. Among high-school children, has it ever come to your 
attention that they have viewed these? 

Father Egan. I have heard it on many occasions when a teen- 
ager will go baby sitting, that while there they will be shown or they 
will see some of this pornographic film material that you speak 

Mr. BoBO. Could you give us. Father Egan, in your opinion, what 
the effect of this pornographic material is upon a young mind? 

Father Egan. We speak a great deal at the present moment about 
the blackboard jungles. Emotional problems in high school. And 
yet there are some people that would like to tell us that there is 
nothing wrong with stealing. The God-given pleasures of sex, out- 
side of marriage. Still, when a kid does do it, he does experience — 
and this is something God is responsible for — they do experience a 
guilt complex. This guilt complex, I am certain, is reflected in the 
emotional problems they reveal in the classroom. These pornographic 
materials are bound to produce in the lives of the teen-agers acts 
of masturbation, acts of self-abuse, acts of unnatural things between 
fellows and girls, and this is shown up, then, in the sense of guilt, 
and that reveals itself in emotional problems in the classrooros. 


The teachers in the public high schools, God bless them, they are 
doing a wonderful job with the problems that they have, but they are 
treating a symptom over here, and the real cause is over here. 

You were speaking a short while ago about the penalties for this 

Mr. BoBO. May 1 ask you this : When you are speaking of a symp- 
tom over here and a cause over there, to what are you referring? 

Father Egan. They are treating the emotional symptoms of filthy 
language on the walls and on the toilets, and they are treating the 
emotional problems of disbehavior, or fighting and gang instincts ni 
the schools, but this may be a mere symptom of somethnig deeper 
away over here, that when a boy or a girl is possessed with a sense of 
guilt, that they are committing acts of impurity alone or with others, 
Tt is revealed then in these other things, and they are creating this 
thing, but the real cause is over here. 

This deluge of filth is sweeping over the country and is having its 
effect in other things. I am convinced of this. 

No normal teen-ager today could look at this unless he has ice 
water in his veins. If he has real blood he couldn't possibly look 
at this without showing some effect in other ways. 

Mr. BoBO. You think of the normal teen-ager only the emotional 
disturbed teen-ager; do you think it would be possible by looking at 
some of the material which has come into your hands that he might 
thereby be stirred up to go out and commit a sex crime against a 
fellow playmate, boy or girl? 

Father Egan. I am certain of it. A boy looks at this, shows it to 
his girl friend. They go to a show together, a movie, and things are 
bound to happen. i i -i 

Mr. BoBO. Do you think that among the sexually uneduqated chil- 
dren who are inquisitive, as most of them are about sex, that this 
might tend to make him think this is normal sex, pictures of which 
we have here, if he had no other outside instruction from either the 
home, school, or church ? -j. i • n 

Father Egan. I agree with you very much, that it he is sexually 
uneducated, if he has not been taught to see the sanctity and the dig- 
nity and the holiness of sex from God's point of view, if they see this 
early in life, they do think it is a normal thing. 

Chairman Kefauver. Father Egan, you have now been 10 years m 
all these cities doing this wonderful work, giving youth guidances. 
This filth that is flooding the country now, all over the country, is it 
on the increase among children ? t . i i o 

Father Egan. The mere fact that I have encountered m the last 6 
months what I have not encountered before would prove to me that 
it is definitely on the increase in many various forms. 

A little kid showed me recently a magazine you can buy at the 
corner now. and inserted in the top of it are these colored glasses that 
you can look at a picture and you see a picture now in triple dimen- 
sions. Like when you go to the movies— I haven't been to a movie 
in a couple of years — but you go to some movies, I understand, you 
look through some glasses, I understand, and you see the thing m 
triple dimensions. Now tliey sell them at the corner, so that you 
look at the art magazines, and with these glasses you can see them 
in triple dimensions. 

Kids, I know, numerous cases of some of the modern magazines tliat 
you cm^'t clfiss legally as pornographic material, and yet while the 


man is mixing a coke, they can rip out these nude pictures in maga- 
zines like, here I will mention — well, under some of the magazines 
they can rip it out and circulate it through a school, and that one pic- 
ture can be responsible for more emotional problems that way than 
anything else. 

Mr. BoBO. You are speaking now of magazines that are sold upon 
the newsstand, and the effect that they might have but not of — previous 
to this you were speaking of pornography? 

Father Egax, I was speaking of pornography ; yes. 

Mr. Kefauver, I don't think that the average person is aware of 
this 1 fact, that whereas if a man were to sell 1 teen-ager 1 
marihuana, that marihuana will affect this 1 teen-ager. We can see 
the effects of that in his life. But 1 piece of this pornogi-aphic ma- 
terial allowed to circulate through 1 classroom or 1 school can do 
harm that we can't estimate. And I speak under correction, but I 
understand tliere is some suggestion of making it life imprisonment 
for anyone who is importing heroin or marijuana as in vast num- 
bers. \Yhy couldn't you make it even more severe, 7 years, for a man 
who is importing and producing this, he is corrupting, he is rotting 
at the very roots of our Nation. Communism will never defeat Amer- 
ica; it is something within the Nation that is going to rot and corrupt 
it; and there should be a more stringent law than just 2 or 3 years, 
or 7 years. 

Chairman Kkfauver. You think that this pornographic literature 
is having a substantial effect upon that degrading process? 

Father Eg an. Positively, Senator. 

Chairman KErAiTVER. 1 was amazed. Father Egan, one day you 
came to my office, and I will always remember. You said you had just 
been around on the streets of Washington and you picked up a whole 
bundle of tliis, not art magazines but pure filth, in the Nation's 
Capital, and you brought it in and gave it to me. 

Father Egax. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is the kind of thing we are finding in 
increasing amounts all over the country. 

Father Egan. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer ? 

Senator Langer. No questions. Tliank you. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, anything else? 

Mr. BoBO. Father Egan, does this make generally the entire social 
ground, I mean from the low social, economic group up to the very 
highest ? Wliere would you say it was most ]Drevalent ? 

Fatlier Egan. I don't work very often with the higher social strata. 

Mr. BoBO. So your working is within the great middle group where 
this stuff is striking ? 

Father Egan. I talked to numerous girls who have posed for these 

Chairman Kefauver. Teenagers, kids ? 

Father Egan. Kids who would be playing to and from school. They 
miglit be down at the corner having a coke, or they might be at a show, 
and someone will glide up to them and convince them that they are 
photogenic, or they would look pretty in a picture, and give tliem $5 
or $10, and from that one negative they will produce many others. 

Chairman Kefauvter, What did you start to say, sir ? 


Father Egan. I will finish this, Senator, by sayino- that it is my con- 
vinced opinion that if we are ooin<r to do anythin<r about this, it is 
soniethino; far deeper, and even though we increase tlie number of 
])layorounds, even though we increase the number of policemen, even 
though we increase everythin<r else, this will never remove the danger 
of this, unless we find the cause of it alL 

Today, if you were to release in the classroom some cold germs, teen- 
agers who are physically Aveak will be more susceptible to the germs; 
strong, healthy kids will not be contaminated by the cold germs. 

Today teenagers are becoming susceptible to' all this tilth, not be- 
cause there is really more of it, I don't think— maybe it is on the in- 
crease, I am not jjrepared to say that definitely— but the kids today 
are so spiritually sick, they don't know the law^s of God, they don't 
know why they should be good, they don't know the sanctity of sex, 
and because of this they are suscej)tible to all these germs. 

If we are going to do anything about it, it won't be just sufficient to 
clear this up. I have seen this when I— I went to public high school in 
New^ York, and this stuff has no effect on some kids. Because they 
knew about God, they knew about the Ten Connnandments, which are 
common to every kid, and unless they know this, unless they know the 
Commandments, unless they know why they should be goodj then tliere 
is no sense just clearing up the newsstands or increasing the police 

Chairman IvErAuvER. Father Egan, in your testimony you have 
mentioned some specific cities where you^ found this material. I 
wwldn't want your testimony, or your' reference to those particular 
cities to make it ap]:>ear that they are different or any worse than 
many, many others. The fact is, some of them may be better. 

I mentioned the fact that you have found some material in the 
Nation's Capital. I think you may also be aware of the tremendous 
effort that is being made by the Washington police force, and many 
groups in Washington, and they have been quite effective in the recent 
months and in the recent years in cleaning up tliis pornography and 
filth for wdiicli we commend them. 

So that I don't w^ant, I know you don't want your testimony to be 
singling out one place as a bad example. 

Father Egan. Certainly not, Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. And I don't want to do that either. I do want 
to commend some of these places where you have mentioned. Here in 
New York there have been some good efforts made. There have been 
some fine efforts made in Washington. They are still on the alert. I 
hope that we can all do better with the problem, how^ever. 

All right, Father Egan, thank you very much. Our best wishes in 
your continued work with the young people of our Nation. 

Father Egan. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. We w^ill have a 5-minute recess. 

(Short recess taken.) 

Chairman Kefauver. The subcommittee will come to order. Every- 
body have a seat, please. 

The subcommittee is glad to have James A. Fitzpatrick, a member 
of the assembly. He has made an investigation of this problem, and 
has sponsored some legislation in coimection with it. 

65203—55 6 


For the benefit of any witnesses who were not here when we started, 
anyone who is called and feels that the lights and movie cameras and 
television discommodes them, or they would be embarrassed, will not 
be required to testify before TV or the cameras, if they will let the 
staff of the subcomittee know. We appreciate the cooperation of the 
television and movie people in this connection. 

Mr. Bobo, who is our next witness ? 

Mr. BoBO. We have subpenaed a number of witnesses to appear be- 
fore this subcommittee either today, tomorrow or the following day ; 
and we have asked for the books and records of these individuals to be 
produced today. • t • i ■, 

I will ask Mr. Martin now to call the names of these individuals. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, it is apparent we are not going to 
get all these witnesses today; and if you could tell the witnesses when 
to come back, we might save them some time. 

All right, Mr. Martin. 

Mr. Martin. Abraham Rubenstein. 

Chairman IvEFAmTiR. Is Mr. Eubenstein here? The fact any wit- 
ness' name has been called doesn't mean he is in the pornographic 
business. We have some witnesses who will testify as experts. 

We have had some charts made. As Mr. Chumbris said, we are 
happy to state this has been exposed. Prosecutions have been 
brought, and the operation shown on that chart no longer exists by 
virtue of the police department and public officials of Baltimore. 

Mr. Deerson is our next witness. Mr. Deerson, will you come 
around ? Mr. Deerson, no one questions your veracity, but it is pos- 
sible that you might mention someone's name, so if you have no ob- 
jection I would like to swear you. 


(William Deerson was duly sworn.) 

Chairman IvEFAmTCR. Mr. Bobo, let us qualify Mr. Deerson— who 

he is. 

Mr. Bobo. Will you state your full name and address for the record? 

Mr. Deerson. INIy name is William Deerson. I am the dean of a 
New York city high school. 

Mr. Bobo. What high school is that? 

Mr. Deerson. Haaren High School, New York City. 

Mr. BoBO. And the address of that ? 

Mr. Deerson. Eight hundred and ninety-nine 10th Avenue. I am 
also employed as the director of recreational activities at the Jewish 
Settlement House, at 128 Stanton Street, New York City. 

Mr. BoBO. For how many years have you been dean of discipline 
at the Haaren High School ? 

Mr. Deerson. One year. . . 

Mr. Bobo. Previous to that time what was your position i 

Mr. Deerson. Teacher of health education in that particular school. 

Mr. Bobo. For how long were you teacher of health education m 
that school ? 

Mr. Deerson. For 12 years. 

Mr. Bobo. And your local address is what? 

Mr. Deerson. 2555 Bainbridge Avenue, Bronx, N. Y. 


Mr. BoBO. For how lono- have you been a school teacher? 

Mr, Deerson. Since 1934. 

Mr. Bono. Has all that time been in the city of New York ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. You are also employed by the Jewish Set- 
tlement House on the East Side, located at 128 Stanton Street ; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Deerson. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefau^'er. You are employed there in what capacity? 

Mr. Deerson. Director of recreational activities and physical activ- 

Chairman Kefau^t:r. How long have you been so employed ? 

Mr. Deerson. 12 years. 

Chairman Kefauver. In your two positions do you come in contact 
with a very large number of school children ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes, I do. 

Chairman Kefauver. And you have a chance to observe them, and 
talk with them, and see what influences them for the good or the bad ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefaui'er. See what they are reading, and what is 
influencing their minds ? 

Mr. Deerson. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well, proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. How many students are at Haaren High School? 

Mr. Deerson. About 2,000 boys. 

Mr. BoBO. As dean of discipline is it your position to deal with 
wayward acts and delinquent acts of children in the school? 

Mr. Deerson. That is correct. 

Mr. BoBO. Misbehavior problems within the school ? 

Mr. Deerson. That is correct. 

Mr. BoBO. Has it come to your attention, Mr. Deerson, that any of 
the students of the high school, Haaren High School, have come in 
contact with or had in their possession any pornographic materials 
of any types? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes, they have. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you say to what extent? 

Mr. Deerson. Well, recently I noticed that quite a few boys have 
been passing theses booklets around among the other boys. Some have 
been selling them. It seems that some boys purchase a booklet, and 
after they have seen it and passed it around they may sell it to another 
boy at a profit. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you describe what these booklets are that you 
are speaking of ? 

Mr. Deerson. The booklets are the severe filthy type of porno- 
grapliic material, unnatural perverted types of sex acts. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are not talking about art magazines? 

Mr. Deerson. No, I am not. 

Mr. BoBo. You are speaking of what is connnonly referred to as the 
2-by-4 book and 4-by-5-type book that is sold — photographic pictures 
along with a printed story? 

Mr. Deerson. That type and othei-s. 

Mr. BoBO. In the questioning of some of the boys who have had 
it in their possession, and those who have sold it, Avhat is tlie price 
these books usually sell for in the school? 


Mr. Deerson. Usually the postal-card type is sold for about 25 
cents. The Maggie and Jiggs type may be sold anywhere from 25 
cents to half a dollar. The card-playing type, where a deck of cards 
is purchased, let us say, for $5 on the outside, they are resold for any- 
where from 15 to 25 cents per card. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have the figures as to the number of boys that 
have been known to sell pornographic literature within the high 
school ? 

Mr. Deerson. I have discovered three boys this term. 

Mr. BoBo. Three boys selling ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any figures as to the number who have 
had it in their possession ? 

Mr. Deerson. No ; I have not. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any knowledge as to the extent that tins 
traffic might reach where one boy would buy it, and to how many it 
would be passed around ? 

Mr. Deerson. I have only discovered about five boys selling the 
material this term. There niay be others. I don't know. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you found out from the three boys who have been 
selling it where thev might have obtained the material themselves to 

sell it? "^ ... 

JNIr. Deerson. Yes ; thev have told me they purchase it from men 
around New York City. They purchase it on the Bowery. Some have 
said tliey have purchased it oii 42d Street, Sixth Avenue, the lower East 
Side, and especially among the men who sell old hats, razor blades. 
They sell old watches. 

Mr. Bono. A typical street peddler? 

]\Ir. Deerson. Street peddlers : and among their items will be porno- 
graphic material. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you found, Mr. Deerson, that this is usually a sur- 
reptitious operation, not open and aboveboard among the boys, or 
among the street peddlers; that it is carried under the counter or 
under other goods which they have ? 

Mr. Deerson. The material is in the man's pockets: and m passing 
by a man will ap])roach a voung teen-ager and ask him to purchase it. 

Mr. Bono. As dean of discipline in this particular high school, have 
you found that there is a certain inquisitiveness among the students 
there to read this particular type of literature? 

Mr. Deerson. Definitely. 

Mr. Bono. Would you think that this particular type of literature 
would cause any increase in sexual activities among the students at 
Haaren High School? 

Mr. Deerson. I believe so. 

Mr. BoBO. Is this a coeducational school? 

Mr. Deerson. No ; it is all boys. 

Mr. BoBO. Would vou think this particular material and the read- 
ing of this material would in any way affect the juvenile-delinquency 
rate of the students in this particular high school ? . ■, c 

Mr. Deerson. T believe there is some relationship. There is defi- 
nitely a connection between the juvenile-delinquency rate and the read- 
ing of this material. 

I feel that the material when read excites the young man ; it stimu- 
lates him and mav lead to some overt act. 


Mr. J^oBo. From your contacts with tlie other teaching staffs of the 
public schools in New York, and also in the parochial schools, and in 
other cities outside of the city of New York, has it come to your atten- 
tion that they sutfer from a similar problem which you face in your 
school ? 

Mr. Deerson. I believe so. 

Mr. BoBo. Have you ever discussed it with any of them? 

Mr. Deerson. No; I have never discussed it with anybody from 
anywliere else. 

Mr. BoBO. I believe I asked you the question. Was this a coeduca- 
tional hifjh school ? 

Mr. Deerson. No ; it is a boys' school. 

Mr. BoBO. Altogether a boys' school? 

Mr. Deerson. All boys. 

Mr. Martin. I notice you have an envelope there. Would that be 
some of the material that has been confiscated ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes. I have a variety of tlie various pornographic 
material in this envelope. 

Mr. Martin. Would you object to turning it over to the committee? 

Mr. Deerson. I don't object at all. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is typical of what you have been finding 
.among these boys ? 

Mr. Deerson. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefaiver. Give it to Mr. Butler. 

Mr. Deerson. I will be glad to. 

Chairman Kefai ver. How old are these boys? 

Mr. Deerson. From 14 to 18. 

Chairman KeFxVuver? Do you find the same sort of thing at the 
Jewish Settlement ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes. Only there it might be younger than 14. 

Chairman Kefauver. Plow old are they? 

Mr. Deerson. They range anywhere from 11 to 20. 

Chairman Kefauver. And you find that some of these people sell 
them pornographic literature, and they in turn distribute it and sell 
it to other kids ? 

Mr. Deerson. In the settlement house it is not sold. 

Chairman Kefauver. But among the boys that you see at the settle- 
ment house ? 

Mr. Deerson. Yes ; some of them do sell some of the pictures, espe- 
cially the playing-card type. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. Go ahead, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. Bobo. Do you have any knowledge as to what the extent of 
this traffic might be among the teen-agers in New York City? 

Mr. Deerson. I have noticed an inci-ease in the amount of booklets 
being passed around. By booklets, I mean pornographic story type 
with pictures. I understand from one boy that there is a series of 10 
of a similar size, approximately 4 by 6. In the exhibit that I just 
brought in I have two samples of that type. 

Of course, as Father Egan said, it is not the number of booklets; 
it is the passage of one fi-om one boy to another that causes a greater 

Mr. Bobo. Is that a new problem at the school ? Have you noticed 
a stead}^ increase, or is it a recent problem ? 


Mr. Deerson. I have noticed a steady increase, especially the pass- 
ing from one stage to another. 

Tlie art books sold on the newsstands, I believe, tend to stimulate 
these boys to seek a stronger type of material. 

Chairman KErAu\T3R. Senator Langer, do you have any questions? 

Senator Langer. No. 

Chairman Kefaumcr. j\Ir. Deerson, do you feel that this influence 
is one of the influences that is contributing to juvenile delinquency? 

Mr. Deerson. I definitely believe so. 

Chairman Kefauver. And it is on the increase ? 

Mr. Deerson. I believe so. 

Chairman KE^Au^^ER. What you have in your school, of course, is 
just a typical situation not only of other high schools but high schools 
all throughout the Nation? Your high school is just about like any 
other boys' school ? 

JSIr. Deerson. That is right. I believe it is a typical school. 

Chairman KEFAU^^2R. I wanted it clear that we asked you to come 
here, not in an effort to criticize your school, but to show that hap- 
pens in a typical school like you have. 

Mr. Deerson. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, sir. 

Dr. Benjamin Karpman. 


Dr. Karpman, are you going to talk about names of people, and 
whatnot, in your testimony ? 

Dr. Karpman. Professional people don't mention names. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well. If these lights bother you, you 
can say so. 

Dr. Karpman. It is all right. 

Chairman Kefaita-er. Dr. Karpman, it is good to have you with us. 
You are Dr. Benjamin Karpman, cliief psychotherapist of St. Eliza- 
beths Hospital in Washington, D. C. ? 

Dr. Karpman. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. The St. Elizabeths Hospital is one of the 
largest and best known and best operated of our mental institutions 
for the treatment of mental disturbances ; is that correct ? 

Dr. Karpman. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have been connected with St. Elizabeths 
Hospital for how long? 

Dr. Karpman. 35 years. 

Chairman Kefauver. Since 1919 ? 

Dr. Karpman. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your educational qualifications and 
background, Dr. Karpman ? 

Dr. Karpman. I have a degree in chemistry and pharmacv from 
Columbia ; a bachelors degree from the University of North Dakota ; a 
bachelor of medicine degree from the University of Minnesota; and 
I also have a diploma from the University of Vienna, postgraduate 

Chairman Kefauver. The study of criminology is your life's work? 

Dr. Karpman. That is right. 


Chairman Kefauvicr. I think I can say that Dr. Karpnian is one of 
the most eminently and highly respected and knowledgeable crimi- 
nologists in the world. 

Dr. Karpman, we feel you are unusually well qualified to tell us in 
some detail of the matters that we are discussing here today as it 
relates to juvenile delinquency. 

Mr. Bobo, will you carry on. 

Mr. Bobo. Dr. Karpman, would you describe for us in professional 
terms the meaning of pornographic literature — what you interpret 
pornographic literature to be ? 

Dr. Karpman. Every community employs certain restrictions on its 
citizens, and one of the restrictions is verbal communication of certain 
private matters which can be discussed very privately among some 
people, but cannot be discussed in public. Among this is included cer- 
tain material dealing with the private sex lives of individuals. 

The intimate relations that are established between people in private 
relations — however, there are some people who seem to take satisfac- 
tion in spreading this type of material abroad ; and these are the people 
who indulge in pornographic material. 

There are tw^o aspects to this pornographic material. There is the 
doer, the one that secures pornographic material for distribution ; and 
then there is the victim who is exposed to that by the material of the 
other doer. 

For this reason in order to develop pornographic literature you 
have got to have people who make a speciality of this poino'jrai^hic 
literature. They go to the trouble of engaging people to pose for them 
in various unmentionable poses, and then after they get the material 
they get victims who pay certain amounts of money for the purpose 
of being able to see this material. 

This material deals with sexual matters, with sexual relations, 
but not with the normal so-called average type of sexual relations. 
There is no interest in that, but usually with the type of sex mate- 
rial that ordinarily is prohibited or at least is unmentionable. 

For instance, homosexuality and perversions. In homosexuals we 
often get pictures of people engaged in homosexual relations of a 
great variety. Tliere are dilferences in homosexual relations in men, 
and there are difl'erences in homosexual relations in women. This 
is pure homosexuality ; but between homosexuality on the one hand, 
and so-called heterosexuality, on the other hand, there are a large 
group of people and activities which are called perversions. 

Perversions may occur between couples, men and women, but in 
entirely abnormal and pathological ways — for instance, different 
positions, different matters of acting. 

This is what is the purpose of pornographic men, and people pay 
money for that. 

There would be no problem in pornographic literature if this was 
exposed to people who are normally developed and have been able 
to develop normal inhibitions, repressions and control. 

Unfortunately it is often given to people of adolescent ages, which 
from our point of view is a very unstable period of life. Anything 
may happen during adolescence. You can take a perfectly healthy 
boy or girl and by exposing them to abnormalities you can virtually 
crystallize and settle their lives for the rest of their lives. 


If they are not exposed to that they may develop to perfectly 
healthy, normal citizens. It is here that objection comes upon porno- 
graphic literature. 

Mr. BoBO. You mean a perfectly normal, healthy boy or girl, 12 
or 13 years of age, if exposed to pornogTaphic literature, could 
thereby develop into a homosexual ? 

Dr. Karpman. That is right; because from our point of view — we 
are not all normally, what we call heterosexual. We don't belong 
to one sex. All of us are bisexual. Every man has some element 
of a woman in him, because he has inherited that from his mother. 
In other words, every man has, from our i)oint of view, a feminine 
component. Every women has, from our point of view, a masculine 
component, which she has inherited from her father. 

The proportion of this varies, but usually the masculine compo- 
nent in a man is large, let us say, 85 percent, whereas the feminine 
component in a man is very small, let us say, 10 to 15 percent; but 
because adolescence is a very unstable stage of development, if. you 
expose a boy to an abnormal behavior it will play upon the unde- 
veloped feminine component, and he might become liomosexual, 

Mr. Bono. Do you think the reading of pornographic literature 
in addition to maybe changing his sex habits in life might also have 
an etl'ect upon him more of a tendency to become a juvenile delin- 
quent ? 

Dr. Karpman. I believe there is a definite relationship between 
juvenile delinquency and sex life. We started from this point of 
view. Our life from our point of view is guided by our instincts. 
We have two main instincts — the self-preservati^^e instinct, and the 
race-preservative instinct, commonly known as the hunger and sex 

Instincts that spread by tension — you and I will never know that we 
are hungry unless there would develop in the stomach some sort of 
tension which sends a message to the brain and tells us that we are 
hungry. In other words, we know of our sex life and of our personal 
life, of hunger life, only through the medium of tension developing. 

Tension is tension. When a young boy and girl, for instance — you 
take a .young boy who is reaching adolescence, and he is hungry for in- 
formation on sex, but for some reason or another doesn't get it at home 
because the mother and father are too tired to talk to them about four- 
letter words and other nasty things. 

Where is the boy going to find it ? He cannot find it at home. He 
doesn't always find it in school. Very few schools have developed 
to the point of giving lectures on the subjects of the facts of life. He 
looks for it in the gutter, aud there he comes across pornographic ma- 
terial and literature, and that draws him into all sorts of gang life, 
which later discharges itself as juvenile delinquency. 

In other words, here is a boy who is under a great deal of sexual 
tension. The home environment will not permit him to discharge 
the sexual tension in normal sex relations. Society doesn't permit 
that in a premarital way. Tension is tension. It must break through. 
If he cannot discharge it in a sexual way, he discharges it in a crim- 
inal antisocial way. 

Mr. Boiio. Thereby causing him to engage in gang activities? 

Dr. Karpman". That is right. There is a very direct relationship 
between juvenile delinquency, sex life, and pornographic literature. 


Mr. BoBO. Would it be your opinion that a youn^- hoy in reading 
porno<2:raphic literature would he inclined to connnit some of the 
various sex crimes of rape, or many other variations ? 

Dr. Karpman. Some; not all. It all depends on the orijLiinal make- 
up of the boy. There are some boys who have developed from early 
childhood interest in dirty matters. For instance. I have known 
boys only 5 or G years old, who every time they would go to the bath- 
room to move their bowels would always look at the stool. They 
vrould even take the stool and press it and squeeze it, showing a cer- 
tain curiosity about it. 

This type of boy who from early childhood has shown interest in 
those matters is the type of boy when confronted with pornographic 
literature will just fall for it hard. 

There are, however, other boys who are brought up in a very severe 
puritanical environment, and that boy may shy away from porno- 
gra])liic literature. There is no set rule about it. 

Mr. BoBo. Have you noticed coming to your attention more children 
that have had contact with pornographic literature? 

Dr. Karpman. I wouldn't say that I have come in contact with more. 
I am not able to give you any statistics. I know that I have been 
testifying very often for the Post Office Department. They come in 
contact with a larger amount of pornographic literature. This has 
been a problem of the Post Office Department all the time. 

For instance, there are a group of people that w^e call perverts, who 
specialize in s])anking. They derive satisfaction, sexual satisfaction, 
out of spanking others and being spanked. 

You sometimes get pictures of people, naked, nude, one after the 
other, each one in front s])anking the other one. They even pub- 
lished a journal called Bareback, and that is how the Post Office De- 
partment got it, because they were sending obscene literature through 
the mail. They arrested them. That doesn't make any difference. 
You can arrest today all the people of this type that you can. To- 
morrow morning you have another group, because the conditions 
which produce them remain constant. 

Mr. BoBO. In these spanking photos — and I presume that you would 
include the chain photos — the ones where the women wear the long 
black highheel boots ? 

Dr. Karpman. That is right. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you think it is possible this particular type of litera- 
ture, even though it doesn't show a complete nude body, might also 
have an effect upon juveniles and their sex life? 

Dr. Karpman. Yes ; indeed. What they do not see, the imagination 
supplies the rest. In other words, you only have to expose, we will 
say, one bare leg of a woman, and her thigh, and then the imagination 
will supply the rest. 

Mr.'BoBO. So that the fact that under your definition, these bondage 
and spanking and whipping photos are pornographic in nature? 

Dr. Karpman. Absolutely ; they are pornographic in the sense that 
they stimulate the mind to abnormal sexual practices. 

What you speak of is what we psychiatrists know as sadism, 
masochism, fetishism, and so on. These are abnormal sexual prac- 
tices — men who are sadists and masochists usually get together. One 
is a sadist and one is a masochist. The couple need not be only men 
or only women. Sometimes it is a man and a woman. 


Oddly enough, it is the woman who is the sadist, and it is a big 
strong husky man that is the masochist. The woman gets a hold of 
a whip, and it is amazing how they can use a whip on a big strong 
husky man, and he takes all she can give him, and out of that both 
derive a certain amount of what we call physical satisfaction. 

These things are sometimes enlarged in people, in children brought 
up at the age of 3, 4, 5 years old. If pornographic literature would 
not come along it would remain within certain confines — not normal, 
because only psychoanalysis can cure that. 

The pornogTaphic literature casts it broadly and widely, and at- 
tracts people who would otherwise remain entirely innocent. 

Mr. Bono. Pornographic literature, as I understand you, doesn't 
affect only teen-agers, but can go down to the age of 5 or 6? 

Dr. Karpman. Yes, absolutely ; if it falls on proper soil. You take, 
for instance, a person who has developed normally. If you take that 
kind of a person and expose them to literature when they were 5 years 
old, he wouldn't know what it means. He may have been brought up 
in a very good home w^hich was probably severely puritanical, but he 
went to' church and controlled himself, and so on. That boy is not 
likelv to be influenced by the exposure ; but you take a boy who has 
developed from early childhood, from our point of view, developed 
from early childhood sadistic, masochistic, fetishistic, or cannibalistic 
tendencies, and there you have something from which he can go. 

Chairman Kefauver. Would you say that among the juvenile popu- 
lation of today that sexual perversion is on the increase'^ 

Dr. KARr^tAN. I would have to cite statistics, and it is impossible 
under these circumstances to cite statistics. You cannot, because they 
will deny it. I believe it is on the increase, and I will give you one 
proof ; the world war. 

As a result of war certain changes have taken place in our sex life. 
Women were committing adultery because they were left without men. 
That is one change. That disturbs the basic living of our com- 

Some women have taken other women as partners to take the place 
of the husband, because they did not want to commit adultery, and so 
they thought they were remaining within the levels of normality; but 
two women would get together and play with each other, and some, 
even harmless. 

Men coming from war over and over again would become changed in 
their sex lives. That was demonstrated very well by the popular 
song during World War I— My Buddy. It is a typical homosexual 
song which glorified the companionship of men with men. 

Then during the war there were also magazine articles — Men With- 
out Women — which also emphasizes the problem of homosexuality. 

There have been many divorces as a result of tlie war. There have 
been many murders. A man stayed away during the war for 2 or 3 
years, came back, and regardless of how faithful the wife might have 
been to him, there was always a suspicion of jeolousy in them, and 
many of them committed murder. I had a number of them among 
my patients. 

Mr. BoBO. In addition to creating certain perversions among chil- 
dren, when an older person shows to a child pornographic literature, 
what is the effect of that? Is he attempting to get him to engage in 
perversion acts ? 


Dr. Karpmajst. Men sonieliow or another do not realize they cannot 
be as competent sexually at 65 as they were at 25, and they still expect 
at 65 to be perfectly healthy and normal and be able to satisfy a woman. 

A time comes when they are not able to satisfy a woman. A time 
comes when they are able to satisfy only in a moderate degree, but 
not the way they were able to satisfy them before. 

Very often it happen that men, as time goes on, become less and less 
and less competent sexually, but they don't want to admit it. Then 
they suffer what we call regression. They begin to go down to the level 
of childhood, and the man becomes almost like a child, and being a 
child he thinks like a child. He feels like a child, and therefore tries 
to play with children. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you think also that among the young people, espe- 
cially of high-school age, that rather than involve the danger of pos- 
sible conception, that pornography has given them the idea in other 
forms of sexual satisfaction? 

Dr. Kakpman. Pornography may not have given them the idea, 
but it may have supported it. One homosexual woman that I had 
under observation told a young girl who was pei-fectly normal — but it 
^as during the war, and men were scarce — and she came to her and 
said, "^'V^lat do you want to bother with men for anyway ? There is 
always the possibility of disease; there is always the possibility of 
pregnancy. There would be no chance of pregnancy if you went out 
with me. "Wliat is tliere a man can do that I cannot do ?" 

She dresses herself up in male clothes, and looks like a man and acts 
like a man, and she tries to simulate the activities of men; and that is 
how women homosexuals often develop. 

Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer, do you have any questions? 

Senator Langer. How long have you been at the hospital in Wash- 
ington ? 

Dr. Karpman". 35 years, with the exception of a year and a half 
when I was in Europe studying and doing postgraduate work. 

Senator Danger. Thank you. 

Chairman Kefauver. You were born in North Dakota? 

Dr. Karpman. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. You lived in North Dakota? 

Dr. Karpman. Yes. I was at Columbia; I was at Michigan, and 
I was always looking for a smaller school, and I found it in North 
Dakota. Everybody knows everybody else. You are just like friends. 
You have no such thing like that in a large city like this, where every- 
body is everybody else's enemy. In North Dakota everybody is every- 
body's friend, just like in Tennessee. 

Chairman Kefauver. Dr. Karpman, we do certainly thank you for 
the valuable information you have given to this committee. 

Dr. Karpman. Thank you very much. 

Chairman Kefauv'er. We appreciate your coming up to New York. 

Mr. BoBO. I am going to ask Mr. Martin to call the names of the 
witnesses who have been subpenaed to appear here today and to pre- 
sent their books and records — and will you come forward at the time 
in which he calls your name ? 

Mr. Martin. Abraham Rubenstein. Abraham Ruben. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your name? 

Mr. Weiss. Daniel S. Weiss, 15 East 40th Street. 

Chairman Kefauver. You represent Mr. Ruben ? 


Mr. Weiss. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let iis make it the first thing in the after- 
noon. Let us saj 1 : 30. 

Mr. Weiss. Very good. 

Mr. Martin. Has Mr. Ruben brought his books ^Yith him ? 

Mr. Weiss. Wliat books are you interested in? 

Mr. Martin. He has been asked to produce his State and Federal 
income-tax retm-ns for tlie years 1950 to 1954. 

Mr. Weiss. We have that. 

Mr. Martin. The records of his business, bankbooks, bank state- 
ments, checkbooks, check stubs. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Weiss, we will take care of those things 
and see that they are returned intact. Mark them and catalog them 

Mr. Weiss. That will be tomorrow at 1 : 30 ? 

Chairman Kefauver. We will recess for hmch and come back at 
1 : 30 or 2 o'clock. Let us say 1 : 30 to be sure. 

Mr. Weiss. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Herman Sobeh 

Mr. BouRAR. I am the attorney for Mr. Sobel. 

Chairman Kefauver. We will be glad to have you with us, Mr. 
Bohrar. You are the attorney for Mr. Sobel? 

Mr. BoHRAR. I am. 

Chairman Kkfauaer. When did you want to have Mr. Sobel come 
to testify? Would it be convenient to come back at 2: 30 tomorrow? 

Mr. BoHRAR That will be perfectly all right. We have some rec- 
ords here. 

Mr. Martin. T wonder if Mr. Bohrar would care to define what 
records you have produced ? 

Mr. Bohrar. Canceled checks. 

Mr. Martin. How about the State and Federal income-tax returns? 

Mr. Bohrar He hasn't got any. He hasn't kept any records. He 
has filed reports, but he hasn't kept copies of them. 

Mr. Martin. Don't you know under the law he is required to keep 
records of his business ? 

Mr. Bohrar. T understand that, but he hasn't got them. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is Mv. Sobel the head of a corporation? 

Mr. Bohrar. He is an individual. 

Chairman Kefauver. What kind of books did you keep, sir? 

Mr. Bohrar. He doesn't keep any books. 

Chairman Kefauver. Just keeps them in his head? 

Mr. Bohrar. Keeps them in his head. He tells me there are a great 
number of judgments against him, and he cannot keep records for 
that reason. He doesn't keep any money in the bank because he hasn't 
got any money. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. He is in bad shape? 

Mr. Bohrar. He ])uts a certain amount of money in the bank just to 
make good the checks. 

Mr. Martin. He was subpenaed to produce checkbooks, and check 
stubs. "Wliere are they — the canceled checks? 

Mr. Bohrar. That is all he has. 

Chairman Kefauver. I suggest you look again and see if you cannot 
find more lecord^ and books of your business. 


Mr. Butler, will you mark those? We will keep tliem and return 
them to you, Mr. Bohrar. 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Abe Eotto. 

Mr. RoTTO. I was subpenaed for this morning. I am waiting for 
my attorney. 

Chairman Kefauver. How about 11 o'clock tomorrow morning? 

Mr. Rcrro. That will be all right. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have some books and records, Mr. Rotto? 

Mr. Rotto. What 1 was asked to bi'ing along — the income-tax re- 
ports. I haven't kept any books. 

Mr. Martin. Do you have any books ? 

Mr. Rotto. I haven't kept any books. I am just a free-lance sales- 

Mr. Martin. How about your bank accounts? 

Mr. Rotto. I have one of those 10-cent checking accounts. 

Mr. Martin. Do you have the canceled checks ? 

Mr. RoTTO. Only for the last month or so. I get my statement, 
check it off, and throw it away. I never have more than 50 or 60 
dollars in the bank. 

Mr. Martin. Do you own any property ? 

Mr. RoTTo. No, sir, 

Mr. Martin. No automobile; or anything? 

Mr. RoTTO. I have an automobile ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Bono. Do you have your income-tax returns for the years 
requested ? 

Mr. RoTi'o. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefai^ver. We will take care of what records you have. 
Turn them over, and at the end of the hearing they will be returned 
to you. 

Mr. Rotto. Thank you. 

Chairman Kefauver. Catalog carefully what he gives you. 

Mr. Ro'iT'O. Eleven o'clock tomorrow morning? 

Chairman Kefauver. Eleven o'clock in the morning. 

Mr. Martin. Louis Shomer. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Shomer? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, 

Chairman Kefauver. You are 

Mr. Rachstein. Mr. Rachstein. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Shomer's attorney? 

Mr. Rachstein, Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver, What is your first name, Mr, Rachstein ? 

Mr. Rachstein. Jacob ; 280 Broadway, New York. 

Chairman Kefauver. We will be glad to work out Mr. Shomer's 
appearance at a time that is convenient with you. 

Mr. Rachstein. I was going to trial tomorrow, but if we are going 
to have a hearing tomorrow, any time will do. I will just adjourn 
the case. Is it planned to liear Mr. Shomer tomorrow? 

Chairman Kefauver. Will 1 : 30 be all right? 

Mr, Rachstein, Yes; Your Honor, 

Chairman Kefauver, We will look for you at 1 : 30, 

Mr, Martin, Has Mr, Shomer produced the records? 

Mr, Rachstein. He brought his checkbooks and stubs. He is un- 
able to produce his tax returns because they are in the possession of 


his accountant. He was served last night at 9 p. m. He has had no 
opportunity before coining here this morning to see his accountant. 

5lr. Martin. Can he get them? 

Mr. Rachstein. He will have them here at 1 : 30. 

Chairman Kefauver. If necessary, bring your accountant with 
you. Turn over what you have now. 

Mr. Eachstein. Thaiik you. 

Mr. Martin. Roy Aid. 

(No response.) 

Mr. Martin. Irving Klaw. 

Chairman Ke'fauver. You are Mr. Klaw? 

Mr. Klaw. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Irving Klaw? 

Mr. Klaw. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Gangel? 

Mr. Gangel. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your address? 

Mr. Gangel. 165 Broadway, New York City. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are the attorney for Mr. Klaw? 

Mr. Gangel. I am liis attorney, but his regular attorney is in the 
hospital, and I have filed a written motion for an extension of the 
return date of this subpena. Mr. Joseph E. Brill is Mr. Klaw's 
attorney. He is confined to the Betii Israel Hospital, and so I have 
asked that the return date be extended, and if necessary we would 
appear before the committee in another city if the date were extended, 
when Mr. Brill is available. 

Chairman Kefauver. Have j'ou represented Mr. Klaw in other 
matters ? 

Mr. Gangp:l. Our firm has. Mr. Brill has been in charge of it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Brill is a partner in your firm? 

Mr. Gangel. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. How many members are there in the firm? 

INIr. Gangel. Two members. 

Chairman Kefauver. And the finn has handled Mr. Klaw's mat- 
ters ? 

Mr. Gangel. Yes; but exclusively by Mr. Brill. 

Chairman KEFAU^TR. Mr. Gangel, I think we will get along all 
right. AH we want to get are some facts. We won't get into any 
involved legal complications, I wouldn't think. We would like to get 
as much of this hearing over with during these 3 days as possible. 

Mr. Gangel. I will cooperate as much as ])()ssible, but I am not 
sure there w^on't be any legal problems, and that is the reason I 
wanted the client to have the benefit of Mr. Brill's advice and counsel, 
but I will, of course, abide by the chairman's ruling. 

Chairman Kefauver. I think we Avill get along all right. 

Mr. Gangel. Thank you. 

Chairman Kefauver. When would it be convenient for Mr. Klaw 
to come? Would 1 o'clock Thursday afternoon be convenient? 

Mr. Gangel. I don't have my diary here, but we will be here what- 
ever time the committee fixes. 

Chairman Kefauver. One o'clock Thursday afternoon. 

Mr. Klaw, were you requested to bring any records or books? 

Mr. Klaw. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you have them, sir? 


Mr. Klaw. 1 decline to make tliein available under the fifth amend- 
ment of the Constitution ; that they may tend to degrade or incriminate 
me; and under the fourth amenchnent of the Constitution, that the 
subpena is vaoue and illegal. 

Chairman Kefauvek. Well, sii', as to the second point, vagueness 
and illegality of the subi)ena — the subpena should be copied in the 
record at this point. Let it be exhibit 7. 

(The subi^ena was marked "Exhibit 7," and is as follows:) 

Exhibit No. 7 

United States of America 

congress of the united states 

To Irving Klaw, 212 Eaat IJfth Street, New York Citij, Greet hig: 

Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before the 
Subcommittee To Investigate .Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the United 
States, on May 24, 1955, at 10 o'clock a. m., at their committee room 104, United 
States Court House, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., then and there to testify 
what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by said 
committee, and bring' with you copies of your State and Federal income-tax 
returns for the years 19.j0 to 1954, inclusive ; records of your business, including 
bankbooks, bank statements, checkbooks and check stubs, profit and loss state- 
ments, statements of assets and liabilities, and all documents reflecting your 
interest in property, real, personal, or mixed. 

Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties 
in such cases made and provided. 

To United States Marshall, southern district of New York to serve and return. 

Given under my hand, b.v order of the committee, this 19th day of May, in 
tte year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five. 

EsTES Kepatjver, 
Chninnan, tiuhcommittee To Iiivestif/ate Juvenile Delinquency. 

Chairman Kefattver. As to the second point, you, of course, are 
entitled to rely upon the fifth amendment. Do you wish to make 
any statement as to why you think producing any books or records 
called for here, might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 
Constitution; that an anwer to that may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Gangel. According to your suggestion, we don't want any 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw said he didn't want any lights or 

Mr. Gangel. There is just one aside from the question you have 
just addressed to this witness. If you would fix our appearance 
for Thursday morning instead of Thursday afternoon, I would very 
much appreciate it, because I have to conduct a hearing at 2 o'clock 
on Thursday, and I am afraid this would interfere. If it could be 
arranged, I would appreciate it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Nine o'clock Thursday morning. 

Mr. Gangel. All right, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, you have refused to comply with 
the subpena and bring in certain books. You have a copy of the 
subpena, do you not? 

Mr. Gangel. We have a copy of the subpena. Mr. Klaw had it 
and turned it over to me. 

Chairman Kefau\^r. It was duly served on Mr. Klaw. 

Mr. Klaw, the subcommittee will order and direct you to bring 
the books and records specified in this subpena when you come Thurs- 


day morning. You will remain under continuing subpena to appear 
here at 9 o'clock Thursday morning with the books and records de- 
scribed in this subpena. Is that clear? 

Mr. Gangel. We understand, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Martin. Aaron Moses Shapiro. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Shapiro not here ? 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shapiro hasn't made an appearance. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let us ask the assistants of the marshal to 
locate him. 

Mr. BoBO. Is the marshal present ? 

The Marshal. Mr. Sliapiro is not in the back room. 

Mr. Martin. Martin Goodman. 

Mr. Frolich. Mr. Goodman's coimsel was out of town. I believe 
he got in touch with the committee. 
^ Mr. Martin. Edward Mishikin. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Mishikin^ 

Mr. Mishikin. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. You appear for Mr. Mishikin? 

Mr. Weiss. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. He will continue under subpena and come 
back at 1 : 30 tomorrow. 

Mr. Weiss. Fine. 

Chairman Kefau%'er. Do you have some books and records? 

Mr. Weiss. He has. 

Chairman Kefauver. Have you? 

Mr. Martin. Aren't there more records than what he has in his 
hands ? 

Mr. Weiss. Most of tliose records with respect to income tax are 
now in the possession of the Internal Revenue Department. He is 
under investigation there. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you take charge and catalog the records? 
They will be returned to him. 

Have him look again and see if he finds any other records. 

Mr. Weiss. All the records he has in his possession have now been 
turned over. 

Mr. Martin. Do we have the documents reflecting his interest in 
pro])erty, real, personal, and mixed? 

Mv. Weiss. Yes. 

Mr. Martin. Do we have a statement of his assets and liabilities? 

Mr. Weiss. All of those records are with the Internal Revenue De 

Mr. Martin. All of them ? 

Mr. Weiss. Yes ; I imagine all of them. 

Mr. Martin. For 1954, too? 

Mr. Weiss. They are either in the possession of the Internal Rev 
enue Department or his tax representatives who is presently negoti- 
ating with the Internal Revenue Department. 

Chairman Kefauver. Your client must have cojiies of these reports, 
or must be al)le to get in toucli with his tax representative. 

Mr. Weiss. I will try to do that myself if it is possible. 

Mr. Martin. How about his profit and loss statement ? 

Mr. Weiss. AJ] of those are in, I believe. 

Mr. Martin. His bank statements? 


Mr. Weiss. The bank books have been turned over. There are no 
checking accounts, and there liaven't been any. 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Weiss, it isn't customary for the Internal Revenue 
Department to be that much on the ball that they will be investigating 
a man's 1954 income tax in 1955. 

Mr. Weiss. It is more or less of a continuation of an original investi- 
gation. I think there has been an extension on it to cover other 
years. Frankly, I am not too familiar with that, but I know all the 
records he has, he has turned over either to the Internal Revenue 
Department or to the tax consultant who is handling the matter with 
the Internal Revenue Department. 

Mr. Martin. You will take it up with the tax consultant? 

Mr. Weiss. I will definitely call him. Is it 1 : 30 or 2 o'clock to- 
morrow ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. If you will advise a member of the 
staff in the morning as to what the tax consultant says — whether you 
have gotten those records or not, that will be all right. 

Mr. Weiss. Yes; of course. 

Mr. Martin. Do you have any other clients, while you are here? 

Mr. Weiss. I have one who is ill, and I have turned in a doctor's 
certificate with respect to him. That is Louis Finkelstein. 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Finkelstein? 

Mr. Weiss. That is correct. 

Mr. Martin. The day the marshal made service, I believe Mr. Fink- 
elstein was at the doctor's office in Brooklyn. 

Mr. Weiss. I believe the marshal spoke to the doctor. 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Finkelstein was able to drive his own car to 

Mr. Weiss. I don't know that to be the fact, nor can I dispute it. 

Chairman Kefauver. 139 Winthrop Road, Teaneck, N. J.? 

Mr. Weiss. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you contact him and see if in the 3 days 
we are here it won't be possible for him to come in ? It doesn't indi- 
cate there is anything seriously wrong with him. 

Mr. Weiss. I believe he did have one stethoscopic test of some sort, 
and I iniderstood he was either going into the hospital today or the 
next day for another one. I don't know. That is the information 
that I received. 

Chairman Kefauver. Make inquiry and let our staff know. 

Let the doctor's certificate be made part of the record. 

(The doctor's certificate was marked "Exhibit No. 8," and is as 


Exhibit No. 8 

Brooklyn, N. Y., May 21, 1955. 
Name : Louis Finkelstein. Age 42. 
Address : 379 Winthrop Road, Teaneck, N. J. 
To Whom It May Concern: 

This is to certify that Louis Finkelstein is ill and has been under my and 
Dr. Harold Berlowitz's (urologist) care for the past month. He is suffering 
from a kidney and urinary bladder ailment, and is in need of additional cysto- 
scopie, urinary, and X-ray observation, tests, and treatment. 
Yours truly, 

Samuel L. Mailman, M. D. 

Mr. Martin. Eugene Mulletta. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Mulletta? 

65263—55 7 


Mr. MuLLETTA. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your name? 

Mr. Lazer. Leon D. Lazar. 

Chairman Kefaxtver. You are attorney for Mr. Mulletta? 

Mr. Lazer. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your address ? 

Mr. Lazer. 120-09 Liberty Avenue, Richmond Hill, N. Y. 

Chairman Kefauver. Your phone number there? 

Mr. Lazer. Michigan 1-1515. 

Chairman Kefauver. When is Mr. Mulletta scheduled to appear.?" 
Would 10 o'clock Thui^day morning be satisfactory ? 

Mr. Lazer. That will be satisfactory. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mulleta, were you requested to bring any 
books and records? 

Mr. Mulletta. I have them in the car. I have two large cartons. 
It would be impossible for me to carry them. 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. Mr. Butler, will some of you make arrange- 
ments to see what is in the car. 

Mr. Mulletta. The 1954 accounts receivable, and my bills. I am 
under charges in special sessions in Long Island City on some ac- 
counts. I feel that they would tend to incriminate me if they were- 
shown to the wrong people. 

Chairman Kiifauver. Why don't you separate what you think would 
tend to incriminate you. We will argue about that later. 

Mr. Lazer. We are willing to give you all the records up to 1954. 
Since my client is under indictment under a charge which may be 
in some way related to the purpose of the investigation here, I feel the 
production of those records at this time would tend to incriminate 
him. He feels that way himself. 

Chairman Kefau\ter. I would be inclined to agree with you; but 
you bring them in. 

Mr. Lazer. We will bring the records. They are downstairs in 
his car, and we will bring them right up. 

The proceeding is in the general sessions court. It is a State cotirt. 

Chairman Kefauver. Ordinarily an incrimination matter doesn't 
relate from a State jurisdiction to a Federal jurisdiction, or vice versa.. 
Bring them all in and let us talk about it when you appear. 

Mr. Lazer. We will do that, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, sir. 

Mr. Martin. John Cassel. 

Chairman Kefau^'er. You are Mr. Cassel? 

Mr. Cassel. Yes. 

Mr. Martin. Do you have any books and records ? 

Mr. Cassel. Not books, just the records — income tax. 

Mr. Martin. Bankbooks, bank statements ? 

Mr. Cassel. Just one bankbook. 

Chairman Kefauv'er. You were told to bring in a whole lot of 
other things. 

Mr. Cassel. That is all I have. 

Chairman Kefauver. "\Yliere do you keep the books of your busi- 
ness ? 

Mr. Cassel. I have no business. I work as a shipping clerk. 

Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Butler, will you catalog what Mr. Cassel 
has there? 



Mr. Cassel, can you come back at 10 o'clock in the morning? 

Mr. Cassel. Could I cojne on Thursday, please ? 

Chairman Ivefaltver. Tomorrow morning. 

Mr. Cassel. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Martin. Roy Aid. 

(No response.) 

Mr. Martin. William Landsman. 

Chairman Kefau^-er. You are Mr, Landsman? 

Mr. Landsman. I am. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will 10 o'clock in the morning be satisfactory 
to you, Mr. Landsman ? 

Mr. Landsman. Yes. 

Chairman Kefau\er. Do you have any books and records? 

Mr. Landsman. I am not in the capacity of having books and 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't have any at all ? 

Mr. Landsman. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you have a copy of your income-tax re- 
turns ? 

Mr. Landsman. No, sir. I am on social security. 

Chairman Kefattv^r. You have no books of any kind ? 

Mr. Landsman. No, sir. 

Chairman KjiFAU^-ER. No checking account? 

Mr. Landsjuan. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, we will see you in the morning at 
10 o'clock. 

Mr. ]\L\RTix. Frank Adler. 

Chairman Kefauv^er. Mr. Adler doesn't seem to be here. 

Call the next witness, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Eugene O. Cavanaugh. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Cavanaugh, we are glad to have you with 


(Eugene O. Cavanaugh was sworn.) 

Chairman Kefauver. ]\Ir. Bobo, will you take over. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you state your full name. 

Mr. Cavanaugh. Eugene O. Cavanaugh. 

Mr. BoBo. You are employed on the youth squad of the board of 
education ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. The chief attendance officer, board of education, 
city of New York. 

Mr. BoBo. ^Yliat is the address ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. 110 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

Mr. Bobo. How long have you worked in that capacity ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. As chief attendance officer, 4 years; in the attend- 
ance field. 27 years. 

Mr. Bobo. What is your duty in the attendance field and in the 
youtli squad of the board of education? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. My duties are to supervise the attendance staff, 
that is, including the supervisory staff and the attendance officers in 


the field, of which we have 32; 42 supervisory members, and 340 
attendance officers. 

Chairman Kefauver. State those figures again. 

Mr. Cavanaugh. We have 42 supervisory members of our staff, 
and 340 attendance officers. I personally supervise the youth squad 
that goes about the city apprehending children on the streets during 
school hours. 

Mr. BoBO. Your squad has no police powers ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. They have police powers. They may arrest truants 
on the streets during school hours. 

Mr. BoBo. Wliat have you found to be the major activities of 
truants from school? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. The major activity is to find some place that they 
can be entertained during school hours rather than attend school. 
Moving picture houses used to be a favorite hangout of children until 
the moving picture theater owners cooperated with us, and we have 
very little difficulty on that score now. 

Candy stores are a source '- 

Chairman Kefau\t;r. You say moving picture houses used to be 
a favorite hangout, but the moving picture theater owners have 
cooperated with you and it is no longer true ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. It is no longer true. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is something that I think ought to be 

Mr. BoBO. Have you come in contact with any pornographic ma- 
terial through your organization or through your own personal con- 
tacts ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. Well, over the years it has been an occasional 
problem. We have had pornographic material come into the pos- 
session of children. It hasn't been on the increase of late, but it 
still is with us. 

Mr. BoBo. Has there been any increase in the number of sex offenses 
among students at school? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. Not that we know of ; no. 

Mr. BoBo. Not among the truants with whom you deal ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. No. 

Mr. BoBO. I believe that some time ago you submitted a report dated 
April 12, 1955, that spoke of some of the activities that the youth 
squad has come in contact with in New York City. 

Do you have any objection, Mr. Cavanaugh, if we should make this 
part of the record of the hearings of this subcommittee ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. I will be glad to. 

Mr. BoBO. Are there any special sections 

Chairman Kefauver. You said it would be all right? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. I ask it to be appended in the record. 

Chairman Kefauv^er. It will be so ordered. 

(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 9," and is on file with 
the subcommittee.) 

Mr. BoBO. In addition to speaking of truants, and so forth, I notice 
in this report : 

We know that this condition contributes to juvenile delinquency. Pupils have 
informed us that they have been offered alcoholic beverages, obscene literature 
has been circulated, and youth in the 17 to 20 years age group are constantly 


soliciting teen-age girls to accompany them on dates and automobile rides in 
most of these premises. 

Would you say that is an increase in activity? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. Yes ; that is an increased activity. Our difficulty 
today is in the local candy store where the 17-year-olds hang out, and 
invite girls in, or younger children into the store ; and they are known 
to hang out there ; and it is an attraction to these teen-age girls to go 
to the store for whatever amusement is there. It may be for just 
hanging out in the store. It may be to look at these pornographic 
pictures, or it may be to drink beer, or whatever it may be. 

Mr. BoBO. Have any street peddlers or the candy stores come to 
your attention insofar as that they are selling or peddling porno- 
graphic literature? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. No. 

Mr. BoBo. None have come to the attention of your department at 

Mr. Cavanaugh. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. Would you say that pornographic literature has had any 
effect upon truancy or delinquency among the schools of New York? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. There is no doubt in my mind that pornographic 
literature does have an effect upon the child. 

As Father Egan pointed out, some children are able to throw it off. 
Some children, it whets the appetite, and they look for more. It 
creates a problem. There is no doubt that it adds to the juvenile de- 
linquency that we are now faced with. 

Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer, do you have any questions? 

Senator Langer. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Cavanaugh, we thank you very much 
for coming. We wish you success in your effort, which we know is a 
very difficult one. 

Mr. Cavanaugh. Thank you, sir. 

Senator Langer. How many boys have you dealt with in connec- 
tion with your work ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. In 27 years ? 

Senator Langer, Yes. 

Mr. Cavanaugh. I would say offhand probably there came into my 
own hands — that I had personal contact with? 

Senator Langer. Yes. 

Mr. Cavanaugh. I would say about 50,000 children that I had per- 
sonal contact with. 

Senator Langer. What would be their ages ? 

Mr. Cavanaugh. The ages run from 7 to 17. 

Senator Langer. Thank you very much. 

Chairman Kefauver. We would appreciate hearing from you. 

Mr. Cavanaugh. We would be glacl to write to you. 

Chairman Kefauver. Our next witness. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. and Mrs. Eobert Thoms. 

(Mr. and Mrs. Robert Thoms were sworn by the chairman.) 

Cliairman Kefau\t2R. Mr. Bobo, will you take over. I don't know 
how you are going to testify together, but we will work it out some 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any preference as to which one will testify 
first ? 


Chairman Kefauver. Let Mrs. Thorns tell her stoi'j'. 
Mr. BoBO. Mrs. Thorns, would you state your name for us. 


Mrs. Tho^is. Mrs. Helen C. Thorns. 

Mr. BoBO. Your address where you live now ? 

Mrs. TiiOMS. Seventy-three Barrows Avenue, Rutherford, N. J. 

Mr. BoBO. Are you a parent? 

Mr. TiiOMs. Yes. 

Mr. BoBo. How many children do you have? 

Mrs. Thoms. Five. 

Mr. BoBO. Five children? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Mi-s. Thoms, I believe you formerly lived in Fairlawn, 
N. J., and you had an experience with pornographic literature? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. And it involved your children ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Will you tell us about that? 

Mrs. Thoms. Last May my sons came in 

Chairman KErAu^T:R. Last May — 1954? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. My sons came in at dinner time, and they were 
taking their baths, and I was taking the laundry down ; and as usual 
I was emptying the pockets of the dungarees, and I came across 

Chairman Kefauaer. How many sons are they? 

Mrs. Thoms. Just one pair of dungarees had the books in them. 
He was 13 years old — my son Vincent. 

Chairman Kefau^'er. Go on and tell us all about it in your own 

Mrs. Tho:ms. At first I ])icked the two books out of his pocket and 
I thought they were just children's book, and I didn't know whether 
to throw it away or not. I looked inside of it, and I was so surprised. 

"V^-lien I asked him where he got them he said some boy had given it 
to him, and he was going to tlirow them away. 

Mr. BoBO. You say that you were surprised. They weren't the type 
of books you thought they were — children's books? They were the 
pornographic type of books showing nude and obscene pictures? 

Mrs. Thoms. No; I never had experience with anything near like it. 

Chairman Kefauver. What kind of books are we talking about now ? 

Mr. BoBO. Is this the type of book you are talking al)out which was 
in the hand of your child? 

Mrs. Thoms, Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Entitled "Jiggs"? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. And "Ella Cinders" ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefau\t.r. Let us make it clear that some of these ]">or- 
nographers haveplagiarized the names of very fine comic strips, like 
Maggie and Jiggs, and Ella Cinders. That was a despicable tliinj 
to do. 

Go ahead, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. You found these in the pocket of your 13-year-old son ? 


Mrs. Thoms. Yes. I asked him why didn't he show them to me. 
He said he had just got them. It was at 5 o'clock. He came in the 
house. It was a few minutes before 5 when he said he got them. I 
said, "From who?" 

He said, "A certain boy." 

I went to the certain boy's house. He said he found them on the 
school grounds. I took him to the police department and left one copy. 

Mr. BoBO. Did the boy who had given them to your son go to the 
same school, and did he lind them at the school ground in Fairlawn? 

Mrs. Thoms. No. He said he found them on the school grounds 
across the street from my house, but that is not where they came from. 
They were being sold in the schoolyard of a school a mile away from us. 

Mr. BoBO. Will you tell us how your son came into contact with these 
books. Where did he get them ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Would you ask me the questions more directly? 

Mr. BoBO. Where did you say your son got these books ? 

Mrs. Thoms. He said that this boy gave them to him. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you make a further investigation to determine where 
the boy who gave them to your son got them ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Well, he denied it. He said he just found them on the 
school ground, but later that evening my 10-year-old boy — I have 3 
boys — the youngest boy said, "They sell those in the schoolyard." 

Mr. BoBO. Was he talking about the school where he went to school ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. And then did you make a further investigation to deter- 
mine if they were being sold in the schoolyard where your son vras at 
school ? 

Mrs. Thoms. ^ es. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you find that they were? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you find out the number of boys that were selling 
them in that particular school? 

Mrs. Thoms. Well, I knew of two definitely that were selling them. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you go to the school authorities and ask them to 
help you with the investigation ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Were they cooperative ? 

Mrs. Thoms. They were expelled boys. They have over 1,500 chil- 
dren. They said they would expel them immediately rather than 
keep them there and make any question about it. 

Mr. BoBO. Did they give you any idea as to the extent of the traffic 
in this particular school of these types of books? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. The teacher said they had confiscated a few 
in the fifth, sixth, and seventh grades — a couple of boys once in a 
while would be caught with them, and the teachers would take them 
away from them. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you make a report to the police department about 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you receive the cooperation of the police department 
in tracking down where the books had come from ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Well, I don't know whether you would call it co- 
operation or not. You will have to ask me more specifically. I was 


told not to do anything further about it. I was told to forget about 
it and not to talk about it, and let them take care of it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who told you that? 

Mrs. Thoms. Police Captain Reisacker and Mr. LaGrossa, in charge 
of the juvenile police. They said they will take care of it and for 
me to be quiet and not do any more about it. 

Mr. Bono. Did they give you any reason for you being quiet? 

Mrs. Thoms. Yes. They said, ''You will only muff things. You 
will do things wrong. I^et us handle it, and you be quiet about it." 

Mr. BoBO. Did you go back to see them later to determine what 
investigation has been made ? 

Mrs. Thoms. Well, Mr. LaGrossa had come to my house, and he 
said, "This is hopeless, because you are going to have to show us 
evidence where a boy goes in a store and buys these books, and we 
will have to see them." 

I got one of the boys who sells these books 

Mr. BoBO. How old a boy was this that was selling them ? 

Mrs. Thoms. He was 13. He said, "I will go in and buy them ;" 
and on the way down he said, "Yes; I handle the post cards, and I 
have handled about 50 of these books. I buy them from this store- 
keeper and sell them on the school grounds at a profit." 

Mr. BoBO. Did he tell you how much he bought them for, and how 
much he sold them for ? 

Mrs. Thoms. He said he bought them for 20 cents, -and sold them 
for a quarter up to 40 cents — whatever he could get from the kids. 

I then called Mr. LaGrossa and told him, "This afternoon at 3 
o'clock this boy is going to buy this book." 

Mr, BoBO. Mr. LaGrossa of the police department? 

Mrs. Thoms, Yes. I said, "This boy is going to buy the books. You 
be there to witness it." 

When I got there he was right there in front of the store, I noticed 
later there were police cars parked on the block; and the boy im- 
mediately got nervous and said that this man in the store was his 
friend. He said, "I am not going to get him in trouble." 

He immediately backed out. I said to Mr. LaGrossa that he told 
me he got them from that man. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know what the man's name and the store was, 
and the store name? 

Mrs. Tho3is. No; just the name of their store is Jean and Al. 

Mr. BoBO. Where is that located ? 

Mrs, Thoms. On Broadway in Fairlawn. It is right next to a 
bicycle store that all the boys patronize. The man that owns the store 
IS very friendly, and his wife is there. I usually drive over. It was 
a nice store ; but right next door was the candy store where on a hot 
day they would go in for a coke. My son went in for a coke this 
day, and the owner said, "Would you like to buy some funny books," 
so they said, "Sure," 

The man gave them these tAvo books. Pie said he destroyed them 
immediately when he saw what was in them, but that proved where 
they came from ; and they said they know the boys woiild go in there 
and buy these books and sell them on the school grounds. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you question the man as to whether or not he sold 
the books ? 


Mrs. Thoms. That da^- Mr. LaGrossa called the owner outside and 
said, "Did you sell this boy obscene books f and he said, "Of course 

He said to the boy, "Did this man give vou the books''; and he 
said, "No." 

He said, "You go back in the store." 

As soon as he went in the store the boy said, "Of course he did; 
I have 50 of them, and post cards too, but I don't want to get them 
in trouble." He said that to Mr. LaGrossa. 

I said, "Isn't that enougli evidence?" Ilis mother Avas there wit- 
nessing it, too. I said, "Why should this boy lie?" 

Mr. BoBo. Mr. Thoms, did you go down and question tliis man 
at any time ? 

Mr. Thoms. Yes, 

Mr. BoBo. Did he admit to you he was selling them ? 
Mr. Thoms. No. 

Mr. BoBO. He never admitted it? 
Mr. Thoms. No. 

Mr. BoBO. You never knew except what the students told you ? 
Mr. Tiioms. He merely told me when he took the business over that 
the books Avere in the store, and upon seeing them he destroyed them ; 
a]id he claimed they were in a cigarbox under the counter; and, of 
course, the boys' remarks were it was a cigarbox when they were pur- 
chased by the children in town even after he took the store over. 
Chairman Kefauvek. Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Tlioms. 
Mr, Martin, Mr. Ben Himmell. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Himmell, do you object to these lights? 
Mr. Himmell, Yes ; I do. 

Chairman Kefau^^er, You have been subpenaed to ap[)ear here. 
Will you be here in the morning at 10 o'clock ? 
Mr. Himmell. What is this about? 

Mr. BoBO. We asked you to bring in your books and records as to 
your business dealings and the type of work which you are doing. 
Mr. Himmell. In other words, you want my business books ? 
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir ; according to the directions that were given on 
the subpena. 

Mr. Hi3imell, I received that subpena at 8 o'clock this morning. 
Mr. BoBO. Could you have those books and records here by 10 o'clock 
in the morning ? 

Mr. Himmell, I will call my accountant and tind out. 
Chairman Kefauver. You do the best you can to get them here by 
10 o'clock in the morning. 

I regret we cannot carry on this afternoon, but Senator Langer and 
1 have to go back for a vote this afternoon, so we will stand in recess 
at this time until 9 o'clock in the morning. 

Any witnesses under subpena who haven't been told a special time 
to come back will report in the morning, and we will hear them then. 
(Whereupon, at 12 : 80 p. m., Mav 24, 1955, the sulx-onnnittee re- 
cessed until 9 a. m.. May 25, 1955.) 

(Obscene and Pornographic Materials) 

THURSDAY, MAY 26, 1955 

United States S'jinate 

Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, 


New York, N, Y. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a. m., in room 1705, 
United^States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Senator 
Estes Kefauver, chairman, presiding. 

Present : Senator Estes Kefauver. 

Also prasent : James H. Bobo, chief counsel ; Peter N. Chumbris, 
associate counsel; Vincent Gaughan, sjoecial counsel; Edward Lee 
McLean, editorial director; George Butler and George Martin, con- 
sultants to the subcommittee. 

Chairman Kefau\-er. The subcommittee will come to order. 

I regret exceedingly the situation we were confronted with yester- 
day in not being able to continue our hearing; but we had a very 
important piece of legislation in the Senate which I thought would 
be voted on Friday of this week, but it was decided to vote on it 

I am Sony we inconvenienced some witnesses. 

We hope that Senator Langer will be with us later today, but we 
will have to carry on. I dislike very much having a one-Senator 
hearing, but, under tlie circumstances, we will have to proceed as best 
we can. 

Again I want the witnesses and the public, or anyone, to know, if 
anyone's name is used adversely, and they want to make any explana- 
tion, they are invited to appear immediately, and the subcommittee 
will give them a cliance to testify and make any explanation. 

Before hearing our first witness today, I want to take this oppor- 
tunity to comment on our hearings thus for, and to say what it is that 
we hope to achieve as a result of these hearings. 

In my view a congressional committee, given a specific problem, has 
as its first and primary responsibility the production of legislation 
designed to remedy the situation which produces the problem. That 
is the purpose of the Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee under my 

However, we cannot legislate intelligently in a vacuum. We must 
know the facts. We find these facts by investigation and in public 
hearings such as this one. At the same time, because these hearings 
are open to coverage by all the media, we inform the public of the 



conditions we have discovered; and in my view no problem is ever 
solved witliont public awareness and interest. 

In our hearings here Tuesday we established the relationship be- 
tween pornography and juvenile delinquency. We did this through 
the expert testimony of Dr. Benjamin Karf)man, the famous criminol- 
ogist and psychiatrist of St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington ; by 
the testimony of the Rev. Daniel Egan, who has done so much work 
with youth for the Catholic Church ; Mr. William Deerson, director 
of discipline at Haaren High School, New York ; and Mr. Eugene O. 
Cavanaugh, head of the youth squad of the New York Board of 

We ei^tablished the nationwide aspects of pornography through the 
testimony of INIr. Peter N. Chumbris, associate counsel of this subcom- 
mittee, and I am informed by counsel that we shall further show the 
nationwide aspects in testimony of police and public officials of differ- 
ent cities today. This interstate aspect will also be shown by documen- 
tary exhibits which will be offered in evidence. 

During the course of today's hearings we hope to learn through the 
testimony of subpenaed witnesses of certain information concerning 
the production and distribution of this material which we do not now 

I want to reemphasize that the material we are talking about is not 
the art magazines, so-called — not the various girlie and gossip publi- 
cations, which certainly border on the pornographic — but the undeni- 
ably lewd, lascivious, sadistic, and perverted publications; the kind 
which Dr. Karpman testified might very well upset the delicate sex 
balance of a juvenile in formative years, and which Father Egan tes- 
tified could not help but affect any juvenile ''who has blood in his 

This material, I am informed by counsel, goes into all -18 States. 

I am convinced at this stage of the hearings that certain Federal 
legislation is needed. Our committee as a result of our preliminary 
investigations into these problems recommended and the Senate at 
its present session has adopted Senate bills 599 and 600. 

These bills make it illegal to transport obscene literature across State 
lines in private conveyances. It is already illegal to transmit such 
literature through the mails. I intend to take the information gathered 
at these hearings and go before the House Judiciary Committee, where 
these bills are now pending. I hope with this additional information 
to be able to convince the House of the desirability of this legislation. 

Several other proposals for legislation have occurred to me during 
these hearings, and we will develop further. 

They are, to make it illegal to ship in interstate commerce any 
publications which do not include the name and address of the pub- 
lisher, or, in the case of those published outside of the United States, 
the name and address of the distributor in this country. 

The spelling out in legislation of a clearer and more definite defini- 
tion of pornographic literature, which would include the various forms 
of perversion. 

To strengthen Post Office regulations, permitting the impounding 
of obscene literature. 

Increasing the penalties for publishing or peddling pornographic 


Strengtheuino- tlie customs laws which Ave will have a good deal 
of testinionv about duriug this hearing. 

IJefore we start I have been advised by counsel that Father Egan 
wished one point of his testimony corrected. I think his testimony 
indicated that certain publications he had brought to me in my oflice 
at Washington had been purchased in Washington. I am advised 
that Father Egan says they were purchased elsewhere and brought to 
my oflice in Washington. I am glad to make that correction. 

Mv. Bobo, are there any preliminary matters before we get started? 

Mv. Bono. I would like to call the names of the witnesses who will 
appear today. Inspector Roy Blick; Commissioner Lawrence A. 
Whipple; Sgt. Alfred Jago; Detective John Higgins; Al Stone, alias 
Abraham Rubinstein, Al Rubin, Abraham Rubin, Rubin Stone, and 
Stony Rubin White; Sgt. Josei)h Brown; Lt. Ignatius Sheehan; 
Edward Mishkin; Arthur H. Sobel ; Abe Rotto; Lou Sliomer; Wil- 
liam Landsman ; and George Fodor. If there are any witnesses under 
subpena at present, I wish you would make yourselves known at 
this time. 

Chairman Kefauvek. Any witnesses from out of the city, [ think 
we ought to try to have them today, because we have held them here 
for se\eral days. Are there any others from out of the city? 

Mr. Gangel. What about Mr. Klaw^ ? 

Mr. BoBO. Due to the fact that we didn't have a hearing yesterday, 
we have scheduled Mr. Klaw to appear on Tuesday, so you will be 
excused today. 

^Ir. Gangel. To return Tuesday ? 

Mr. Boi50. Tuesday at 9 : 30. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let us say 10. 

Mr. Gangel. I would prefer 10, if the committee would permit that. 

Chairman Kefauver. 10 o'clock. Is that convenient with you ? 

Mr. Gangel. Yes. That would be June 1, 1 take it ? • 

Chairman Kefauver. The day after Memorial Day. 

Mr. Bono. Inspector Roy Blick. 


(Roy Blick was duly sworn.) 

Chairman Kefauver. Our first witness is Mr. Roy E. Blick, Inspec- 
tor in (;harge, Morals Division, Metropolitan Police Force, Wash- 
ington, D. C. 

1 have known Mr. Blick a number of years. I think he is capable, 
hard-working, effective police officer. We appreciate the cooperation 
you have given our subcommittee, Mr. Blick. We are glad to have 
you here with us. 

Mr. Bobo, will you proceed. 

Mr. Bono. Mr. Blick, you are an inspector of the Washington Metro- 
politan Police Department? 

Mr. Blick. I am. 

Mr. Boiio. You are the head of what is known as the morals squad « 

Mr. Blick. I am. 

Mr. Bono. The vice squad ? 

Mr. Blick. I am. 


Mr. BoBO. How many years have you been employed with the Wash- 
ington Police Department? 

Mr. Blick. 24 years. 

Mr. BoBO. And of that number of years, how many years have you 
been connected with the vice squad ? 

Mr. Bligk. All except 3 weeks. 

Mr. BoBO. For how long have you been head of the vice s([uad in 
Washington ? 

Mr. Blick. I would say around 18 years, 19 years. 

Mr. Bob'o. Coming within the jurisdiction of the vice squad on the 
Police Department, is pornographic material within the jurisdiction 
of your squad ? 

Mr. Blick. It is. 

Mr. BoBO. When I speak of pornographic material, would you de- 
scribe what pornogTaphic material comes within the jurisdiction of 
your squad? 

Mr. Blick. Filth. 

Mr. BoBo. Made up of books, pamphlets, film, phonograph records? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Lewd and perverted character? 

Mr. Blick. Obscene, indecent, and lascivious. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any record of the number of arrests which 
you have made within the last 2 yeare of persons dealing, producing, 
or distributing pornographic material? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. BoBo. What is tlie number of persons that have been arrested in 
Washington during the last 2 years for dealing in this type of ma- 
terial ? 

Mr. Blick. Approximately 34, to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. BoBO. Are all of those persons adults ? 

INIr. BliciJ. All except 2 or 3. 

Mr. BoBO. "Wliat was the age of the 2 or 3 that were not adults? 

Mr. Blick. One was 17, and the other one was 15 or 16, if I recall 

Mr. BoBO. Among those selling pornographic material, adults and 
juveniles alike, have you had any occasion to notice whether or not 
pornographic material was sold or distributed to those of juvenile age? 

Mr. Blick. Mr. Bobo, we have received complaints on juveniles re- 
ceiving this pornographic material, and we go out to make an in- 
vestigation. We find out that it is true that at times these kids do 
have, or that juveniles do have in their possession photographic ma- 
terial that is classified obscene and indecent. 

Mr. Bobo. Do you have any record of where specifically porno- 
graphic material has been sold to juveniles, either sold or exhibited to 

Mr. Blick. Only by hearsay. This material is sold from under- 
the-counter. I could not under oath say that it was actually sold 
to the juveniles. We have found it in their possession. We have 
raided places within the bounds of the school area, and have found 
with a search warrant material that was obscene and indecent. 

Mr. Bobo. Inspector, did your squad or did a member of the Wash- 
ington Police Department — did he or did he not pick up a deck of 
62 supposed playing cards showing 52 various forms of perversion 
irom a youngster of the age of 13 ? 


Mr. Blick. We did. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any explanation from this youngster as 
to where he received this deck of cards? 

Mr. Blick. If I recall correctly, that he bought them from some 
other person, but he did not know who it was from. 

Mr. BoBO. Are you familiar with this particular type of por- 
nography — a deck of playing cards ? 

Mr. Blick. I am. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you find that this particular type of pornography is 
widespread in distribution? 

Mr. Blick. It is. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know the selling price of a deck of these por- 
nographic playing cards ? 

Mr. Blick. The cheapest set you can buy them for, the black and 
whites, are $5. They run from $5 to $8 a pack. The colored ones run 
from $8 to $12 a pack. 

Mr. BoBO. In your experience in Washington with the morals squad 
or vice squad, have you had occasion to run across pornographic movie 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever known of any case of pornographic movie 
film seing sold or exhibited to minors and teenagers ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. BoBO. Did your squad conduct a raid in the city of Washington, 
D. C, at the Don Pallini Dance Studio? 

Mr. Blick. They did. 

Mr. BoBO. On what date was this ? 

Mr. Blick. March 18, 1953. 

Mr. BoBO. In conducting this raid what were the number of teen- 
■agere and minors who were present at the Don Pallini Dance Studio ? 

Mr. Blick. 197. 

Mr. BoBO. Ranging in age from ? 

Mr. Blick. Eleven years up. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you confiscate a film from this particular studio? 

Mr. Blick. I did. 

Mr. BoBO. What was the length of the roll of film which you con- 
fiscated, Inspector ? 

Mr. Blick. Approximately 1,800 feet. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you detennine what the price to view this film for 
:these adolescents and teen-agers was ? 

Mr. Blick. The tickets were being sold for $5 per person. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you confiscate any of these tickets? 

Mr. Blick. I did. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any of them with you at the present time? 

Mr. Blick. I do not. I believe that I have a copy. 

Chairman Kefauver. Here is one. It says : 

Colossal good time tonight. Admit one. Entertainment, buffet style, movies, 

We will file this for the subcommittee. 

(The ticket was marked "Exhibit No. 10,'' and is on file with the 

Mr. BoBO. AVliat was the nature of the 1,800 feet of film which 
was to be shown this evening? 


Mr. Blick. The lirst 150 or 200 feet of film was just a hula dancer, 
which is a great trait for these promoters, in case that someone should 
walk into these places before the film gets started, and they would 
Avalk out and say they are just having a good time. 

The rest of the film was the filthiest that I have ever seen in my 

I had Dr. Corning of the public schools, by permission of Mr. 
Rover, who is a United States district attorney, to invite ministers 
from the diii'erent churches, and the PTx\ and civic organizations 
to come down, and newspapermen, to view the pictures. There were 
quite a few of them who before the picture Avas completed were sick 
from the filth that was in the })icture. 

Mr. Bono. Do you have the names of the people who were showing 
this film, or exhibiting it ^ 

Mr. Blick. I do. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you make an arrest of these people at that time? 

Mr. Blick. I did. 

Mr. BoiiO. What were the names of these people. Inspector? 

Mr. Blick. Phil Stone and Fred Sanders. 

Mr. BoBO. Where do they live? 

Mr. Blick. They live in Washington; one just outside of Wash- 

Mr. BoBo. Do you know the city outside of Washington where he 

Mr. Blick. In Prince Georges County. 

Mr. BoBO. In Maryland. 

Mr. Blick. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Was it College Park, Md. ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauater. l*ut in the record the address of each of those 
men so it will be part of the record. 

(The addresses appear on p. 107.) 

Mr. BoBo. Did you determine from these persons, Phil Stone and 
Fred Sanders, where they obtained this film. 

Mr. Blick, I tided to, but there was very little information from 
these people at first. Nobody knew the ownership of the film ; no one 
kneAv anything about it. 

When we came in Ave came in a little too early, and I A\as thankful 
that Ave did; that Ave prevented these kids from seeing such pictures. 

They had cut off the lights, and Ave gave them about 10 minutes and 
Ave crashed the door and Avent up, and only the screen was up. 

One of my men caught one of the men going across the roof of the 
rear Avith the film, and he chased him back into the place. 

We questioned tlie older men that Avere up there, and they Avere 
the paters of the fraternity. 

Chairman Kefai"S'er. What does that mean? 

Mr. Blick. A pater tliat is supervising the children. When I seized 
the machine, and tlie man kncAv he Avas going to lose the machine, he 
then admitted that he Avas the one that Avas going to put the sIioav on. 
That Avas Philip Stone. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you mean by that "sponsor of the film" ? 

Mr. Blick. No; the pater, as far as I can learn, is the overseer of 
the organization that these kids belonged to. 

Mr. BoBO. This Avas a high-school fraternity ? 


Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. There were tliree schools involved. 

Mr. BoBO. Three high-school fraternities all belonging to the overall 
same group, except the chaj^ters of them? 

Mr. Blick. That is right. The following day we got a warrant for 
Fred Sanders and Philip Stone. They liad a liearing in the district 
attorney's office, and Fred Sanders stated that Antonelli, who was 
the father of one of the boys, had come to him to see whether he 
could get some pictures to show^ to the boys. 

Sanders stated that he worked with Phil Stone, wlio had a motion 
picture machine, and that he made arrangements Avith Stone to show 
tlie pictures. 

Stone admitted to it and }:)lead guilty to the charge of possession 
and exhibiting obscene and indecent pictures. 

Mr. Bono. Phil Stone lives at 4:')U Kowalt Drive, College Park, Md? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. And Fred Sanders lives at •ii)"^! 4tli Street NW., Wash- 
ington, D.C.? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any information from these men that 
they had received this film from one George Fodor? 

Mr. Blick. Later on I i-eceived information that Stone had re- 
ceived this film from George Fodor, from whom we made a purchase 
of about five-hundred-and-some-odd dollars of material in order to 
get into his house. 

Mr. BoBO. When you speak of matei-ial, you are s^x-aking of ]5or- 
nographic material ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. Is that decks of cards, books, magazines, pictures? 

Mr. Blick. Cards, film, pictures, anything that w^as indecent or 

Mr; BoBo. Did you discover whether or not Mr. Fodor had previous 
records of dealing in obscene and pornographic material? 

Mr. Blick. At that time, no, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you determine at a later time whether or not he 
has dealt in obscene and pornographic pictures? 

Mr. Blick. ^Vlr. Fodor is from Tel Aviv, and Mr. Stone has a pre- 
vious record. 

Mr. BoBo. In what cities did Mr. Philip Stone operate? 

Mr. Blick. Canada, New York. 

Mr. BoBo. Where in Canada ? 

Mr. Blick. Ottawa, if I recall correctly. * 

Mr. BoBo. Ottawa, Canada? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Could it have been Toronto, Canada ? 

Mr. Blick. It could have been; yes, sir. He stated that someone 
had i)ut that in his trunk. He said that he w^as an innocent victim 
of that. 

Mr. BoBo. Did you determine whether or not he had ever operated 
in Miami, Fla. ? 

Mr, Blick. Yes, sir. He had foui- IG-millimeter sound machines 
in ]\Iiami; and he w^as confronted with that, and he stated he used 
these machines to go around to the different hotels to show old type 

65263—55 8 


Mr. BoBO. Do you know of any other cities in which Mr. Stone has 
operated, that your investigation showed, besides Toronto, Canada, 
and Miami, Fla., and Washington, D. C? 

Mr. Blick. Offhand, no. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know whether or not he ever operated in New 
York City? 

Mr. Blick. He had connections. I know that he had connections 
here in New York. If you want me to give you the lifeline I will be 
glad to do so. 

Mr. BoBO. What do j-ou mean by the lifeline? 

Mr. Blick. The connections. 

Mr. BoBO. Yes ; I wish you would give us that. 

Chairman Kefauv'er. This is from your police records ? 

Mr. Blick. No ; it is from my investigation. 

Mr. BoBo. From your own knowledge would you give us the lifeline, 

Mr. Blick. Mr. Stone received the film from George Fodor. George 
Fodor received the film from Ike Dorman, in Baltimore, Md. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have a record of Mr. Dorman ? 

Mr. Blick. I do not; no. 

Mr. BoBo. Do you Icnow whether or not Mr. Dorman is a known 
dealer in pornographic material ? 

Mr. Blick. I do. 

Mr. BoBO. That he has a record of dealing in pornographic 
material ? 

Mr. Blick. It was just in the last 48 hours that I have the record, 
whicli has not been sent to me, that we have been working on con- 
stantly to locate Dorman. 

Mr. BoBO. Will you make this record available to the committee 
when you receive it? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir; I have asked for it to be sent to the committee. 

Mr. BoBo. You were describing the lifeline of where the material 
came from. 

Mr. Blick. George Fodor and Ike Dorman left Baltimore, came 
to New York, and they met a man named Lou Shomer, and another 
person by the name of 

Mr. BoBO. On each one of these would you spell out the name, and 
give us the address of them if you have them. 

Mr. Buck. I do not have the address of Lou Shomer. The other 
man's name was Ben. 

Mr. BoBo. Do yo;i know his last name ? 

Mr. Blick. I do not. 

Mr. BoBO. AVhere did he reside? 

Mr. Blick. In New York. 

Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Blick, any names that you have in your 
investigation or in your police records, get the names fully, and also 
the address and the city, so we can identify it in the record. 

Mr. Bi.iCK. I think you have, if I may say so, Mr. Chairman, the 
person who I have reference to at the present time, that he has a 
subpena before this committee now, to aj^pear before the committee. 

Mr. BoBO. Who are you speaking of there ? 

Mr. Blick. Lou Shomer. 

Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir ; we have Mr. Shomer under subpena. He is from 
Brooklyn, N. Y ? 

Mr. Blick. That is right. 


Mr. BoBO. How were these materials transported from New York 
to Washington? Did your investigation reveal that? 

Mr. Buck. My investigation revealed that the car was left, and 
someone picked the car up ; they had drinks while the car had disap- 
peared ; when they came back the car was loaded, and they returned 
to Baltimore by private automobile. 

Mr. BoBO. They described to you that they brought their auto- 
mobile to New York City, left it? Did they tell you where they had 
left their automobile ? 

Mr. Blick. "^Ylien you say "they," who are you talking about? 

Mr. BoBO. George Fodor and Ike Dorman. 

Mr. Blick. Neither one of them told me a thing. It was through 
my investigation, from confidential sources that I cannot reveal. 

Mr. BoBo. Do you have any estimate, Inspector, as to the number 
or the value of seizures of pornographic material that you have con- 
fiscated in Washington within the past 2 years ? 

Mr. Blick. Conservatively I would say around $50,000. 

Mr. BoBO. Inspector Blick, have you ever seized in the city of 
Washington any phonograph records which are pornogi^aphic in 
nature ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you describe whether or not these phonograph 
records portrayed in voice various kinds of sexual activity and 
perversion ? 

Mr. Blick. They do. 

Mr. BoBO. How many of these pornographic records have you 
seized ? 

Mr. Blick. A very large quantity of them. 

Mr. BoBo. Could you put an approximate evaluation upon these 
phonograph records ? 

Mr. Blick. At the retail value, I would say between ten and fifteen 
thousand dollars. 

Mr. BoBO. Is this a comparatively new innovation in the porno- 
graphic field, to your field ? 

Mr. Blick. No ; it is becoming more popular, thougli. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know the source of these phonograph records? 

Mr. Blick. I do not. 

Mr. BoBO. Are these phonograph records marked with the manu- 
facturers' names? 

Mr, Blick. They are not. 

Mr. BoBo. Are there any addresses shown ? 

Mr. Blick. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you bring some of these phonograph records with 
you to New York City ? 

Mr. Blick. I brought the tape recording in preference to the rec- 
ords, because the records could be very easily broken on the way to 
New York and return. 

Mr. BoBO. You will make this tape recording available to the 
subcommittee ? 

Mr. Blick. I will ; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let it be filed as an exhibit. 

Mr. Blick, I liave been interested in some pictures liere that I see. 
Apparently the place where this movie was being s1io\mi — here are 
some pictures with whisky bottles, and the place is torn up. It looks 


like a pretty rough party. How many boys did you say you found 
there ? 

Mr. Blick. Approximately 197. 

Chairman KErAuvp:R. Will you identify these pictures and state 
whether they are the pictures made at that place — and file them in the 
record if they are. 

Mr. Buck. These pictures were taken by a police photographer. 

Chairman Kefau\^r. AVliat did you find in the room ? 

Mr. Blick. This is the way the kids left the place. It was like a 
buncli of animals stampeding, tr^dng to get out. After we had been 
there and called the juvenile squad, for about an hour and a half- 
one kid jumped out of the window. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did it hurt him bad ? 

Mr. Blick. We thought he was dead, but wdien he got up and had 
tlie doctor examine him, I said, "Why in the w^orld did you jump out 
of that W'indow?" 

He made tlie remark, "Someone told me the police was coming in." 

I said, "We have been in here for about an hour and a half or 2 
hours, son." 

He said, "I just got the information." 

Chairman Kefauver. Some of these kids were 11 years old? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. All of them were under 21 ? 

Mr. Blick. All of the kids; yes, sir. As I said, some of the men 
that were there, that were the paters of the fraternity — they were there. 

Chairman Kefauver. What else did you find in this room? 

Mr. Blick. Contraceptive material thrown against the wall, and 
on the floors that the boys had in their possession. Whiskey bottles, 
beer bottles. Up on the next floor they had crap tables — these portable 
tables, and card tables. 

Chairman Kefaltver. Mr. Blick. have you been getting information 
about similar parties of that kind that led you to raid this particular 

Mr. Blick. Whenever we get information of this type we work hard, 
and if we cannot get sufficient evidence to get a warrant to get in, I 
personally supervise the job to crash it so we can prevent these kids 
from seeing or having this kind of fun, if you want to call it fun. 

Chairman Kefauver. There have been other instances of this kind 
that you have broken up ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. About how many in the last 2 years in Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr. Blick. Well, in the last 2 years I w^ould say not over 2. 

Chairman Kefauver. There have been some over a period of a 
longer time ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. Most of these things are not carried on in 
public places. A smaller amount of boys, or a mixed crowd, will 
patronize them ; and, of course, we do not get word of it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you establish who owned this Don Pallini 
dance studio at 2625 Connecticut ? 

Mr. Blick. A man by the name of Kurtz. Nick Scholnick was 
running the place ; also known as Nick Martin. 

Chairman Kefauver. Does he have a police record? 


Mr. Blick. We could not fingerprint him because the District 
Attorney would not give us papers against him. 

Chairman KefxVuver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. At one time you arrested, on February 29, 1952, a Mr. 
Vincent Chucoski, 607 Fourth Street NW., Washington, D. C? 

Mr. Blick. I did. 

Mr. BoBO. For Avhat was he arrested, and what did he have in his 
possession. Inspector? 

Mr. Blick. Vincent Chucoski at the time of his arrest at 607 Fourth 
Street NW, apartment 1, had 14 boxes containing obscene and indecent 
pictures, assorted photograph supplies, slides with obscene pictures 
on them, obscene books, and obscene pamphlets, two movie projectors, 
screens, pictures, dryers, enlargers, slide projectors, 2 rewinders, 10 
albums of assorted sizes containing indecent, obscene pictures. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you place a value upon this material. Inspector? 

Mr. Blick. You mean a commercial value or what I would value 
it at? 

Mr. BoBO. A commercial value and what you would value it at. 

Mr. Blick. The commercial value of this would run around from 
one thousand to two thousand dollars. My value of it would be trash. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you seize a card file of 500 negatives of pornographic 
photographs ? 

Mr. Blick. I did. 

Mr. BoBO. Was this card file indexed according to the type of per- 
version it represented ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes. 

Mr. Bobo. Did you determine from this person where the negatives 
were developed ? 

Mr. Blick. They tell you nothing. He developed his own pictures. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you determine from this person the extent of the 
traffic in which he was engaged ? 

Mr. Blick. He told us nothing. 

Mr. BoBo. Was this person convicted ? 

Mr. Blick. He was. 

Mr. BoBO. What sentence did he receive ? 

Mr. Blick. Sixty days and $200. 

Mr. BoBO. Among these negatives, were there any pictures of juve- 
niles ? 

Mr. Blick. There were. 

Mr. Bobo. Have you found in pornographic material, both film and 
pictures, that there is a frequency of juveniles being used as models 
and to act out these scenes ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. Bobo. What is the age of the youngest person you have seen 
posed in these pictures? 

Mr. Blick. About Si/o, 4 years old. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you find that a number of 14- and 15-year-old boys 
and girls are portrayed in acts of perversion in these films and pic- 
tures ? 

Mr. Blick. Not the boys as much as the young ladies. 

Chairman Kefauver. Don't use any names, but you mentioned a 
314-year-old. Do you want to elaborate on that, Mr. Blick? 

Mr. Blick. Mr. Chairman, my undercover men went to a residence 
to make a purchase of merchandise of obscene and indecent pictures. 


and in his report he reported, back that the man at the time was taking 
a picture of his three children and his wife, all nude. The children 
were looking at the wife's person. 

Chairman KErAuvT:R. You have run across a good deal of these very 
young children being used in that way ? 

Mr. Blick. Not as young as that ; no, sir ; but in adolescents I would 
say "Yes." 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. Bono. Inspector Blick, were you familiar with the investiga- 
tion made by an investigator of this subcommittee involving a person 
by the name of Joe or Jake ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. BoBO. The investigator purchased a quantity of obscene ma- 
terial from Jake, who was a street peddler in Washington? 

Mr. Blick. That is right. 

Mr. Bobo. Do you have the full name of this person ? 

Mr. Blick. James Hammon. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know his address? 

Mr. Blick. Lorton, Va. 

Chairman Kefauaer. That is a penal institution? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. He is serving 2 years. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have his record — the number of times of his 
arrest ? 

Mr. Blick. I do not. 

Mr. BoBO. He has been arrested numerous times ? 

Mr. Blick. He was arrested so many times, the judge finally said, 
"I am going to put you away this time to be sure to keep you off the 

Chairman Kefauver. Tell us in your own experience what can be 
done to help stamp out this business. In the District of Columbia 
it is all on a Federal level. 

Mr. Blick. Mr. Chairman, I have personally asked, myself, laws 
that would help us, because we come under the jurisdiction of the 
Federal Government. Transportation, regardless of how the trans- 
portation might be involved, would be a Federal act. 

Chairman Kefau\'er. As it is now it is unlawful to send this stuff 
through the mails, but the mail statute is vague and indefinite. It 
is very questionable whether it covers film and phonograph records. 

Mr. Blick. It covers that — anything obscene, indecent, or lasciv- 
ious, it covers. 

Chairman Kefauv^er. There is some question about it, though ; but 
the trouble is that they carry it in trunks in automobiles, and they 
may not use the mails. 

Mr. Blick. That is right. The Federal law of the ICC— that is 
interstate transportation — I may carry this suitcase on the train as 
long as a porter on the train does not touch this suitcase, and you 
caMuot charge me with interstate transportation. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is the way a lot of it is transported. 

Mr. Blick. That I cannot say, but it is transported. That is the 
only thing I can say. 

Chairman Kevauver. How about the stiffness of sentences? Look- 
ing over the police records — this is your official record — $250 or 90 
days; $100 or 60 days; nolle pressed, nolle prossed, nolle prossed, not 
guilty, nolle prossed, $100 or 90 days. It looks like the big majority 


of them either don't get convicted, or nolle pressed, or have a fine 
of $100 or CO days. Do you think that is sufficient ? 

Mr. Blick. I do not. 

Chairman Kefauver. So you would recommend something more 
than a misdemeanor? 

Mr. Blick. I certainly do. This is more dangerous than narcotics, 
because you inject narcotics to an individual and it is over with. 
These pamphlets, these booklets, can be passed from one to another. 

It is the same as a prostitute that can infect an army of men if she 
is permitted to hang around the camp. It is the same as this pornog- 
raphy that is being passed around. It can be passed from one hand 
to another, and it is causing a lot of headaches in the country. It is 
causing kids who are just at the age that they should know right from 
wrong to become perverts and homosexuals. 

Chairman Kjefauver. Is there any doubt in your mind that a lot 
of sex crimes that we have had — that is, criminal assault, rape, and 
other kinds of sex crimes, are the direct result of this pornographic 
literature that is being distributed ? 

Mr. Blick. That would be only my personal opinion. 

Chairman Kefauver. Wliat is your opinion ? 

Mr. Blick. I would say yes, because you would incite the individual 
that would read such filth, and then he would go out to look for relief. 

Chairman Kefauver. And there is an increasing percentage of sex 
crimes, particularly among young people these days. 

Mr. Blick. According to the newspapers; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Blick, I hand you here what is marked 
as "Exhibit A." Is that the list of court records of people charged 
and brought to trial, and what happened to them in the last 2 years? 

Mr. Blick. It is. 

Chairman Kefauver. Showing what the extent of the sentence was. 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let that be filed as an exhibit in your testi- 

Mr. Blick, we appreciate your cooperation and that of Chief Mur- 
ray, and I want to personallj^ express my thanks for the vigor that 
you and Chief Murray and your department has been going after 
this sort of filth in Washington during recent times. 

Mr. Blick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You can rest assured that 
we will continue to do so. 

Chairman Kefauver. We hope you will continue even more vigor- 
ously, if possible. 

Mr. Blick. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, have you also been interested in legisla- 
tion — confiscating the equipment, the automobiles that pornographers 
use in their trade ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. I think that the law should be passed that 
where these seizures are taken from an automobile, or a bookstore, 
that everything — the automobile or the bookstore, or any other store 
that the buy is made in — should be confiscated. The merchant, or 
whoever he might be, should forfeit his rights to all of his property 
within the jurisdiction where the buy was made. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is the law at present as to narcotics. 
Also, when any alcoholic beverage — during the time of prohibition — 
and I suppose now where it doesn't have a Federal stamp on it — it is 


not only subject to contiscation, but the vehicle of conveyance is also 
subject to confiscation. 

Mr. Blick. Yes. sir. 

Chairman Kefa'uver. You would have the same thing apply to this 
pornographic literature. 

Mr. Blick. If we could get the search and seizure from the narcotics 
section of the narcotics la^Y to apply to pornography, it would be a 
great help to us. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you, Mr. Blick. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Lawrence A. "\Vliipple. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have somebody with you ? 

Mr. Whipple. I have two men with me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Commissioner Whipple, you have with you 
Sgt. Alfred Jago and Detective John Higgins? 

Mr. Whipple. Yes. 

(Lawrence A. Whipple, director of public safety of Jersey City, 
N. J., and Sgt. Alfred Jago and Detective John Higgins, of the Jersey 
City Police Department, were duly sworn by the chairman.) 


Chairman Kefauver. I have been told by the members of our staff 
of the outstanding effort that you, Mr. Whipple, as commissioner, and 
your associates in Jersey City, have been making— the special drive 
against pornographic literature, and of the wonderful cooperation 
you have given. I want to take this opportunity of personally thank- 
ing you for helping us, and commending you on your work. 

Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. You are Commissioner Lawrence A. Whipple? 

Mr. Whipple. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Director of public safety of Jersey City, N. J. ? 

Mr. Whipple. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Your address is what? 

Mr. Whipple. My home address is 92 Bentley Avenue, Jersey City. 

Mr. BoBO. For how many years have you been director of public 
safety ? 

Mr. Whipple. Since December 15, 1953. 

Mr. BoBO. Were you connected with police work prior to that in 
any capacity ? 

Mr. Whipple. No, sir ; but I was with the Office of Price Stabili- 
zation a little over 2 years in the city of New York, as the chief law 
enforcement officer there, special assistant attorney general under 
Attorney General Richmond in Newark for approximately a year. 

Mr. BoBO. In Jersey City there has been quite a campaign waged by 
your division and by the police department and by the city against 
pornographic literature ? 

Mr. Whipple. That is correct. 

Mr. Bono. Would you tell us about this campaign which you all 
have waged there? 


Chairman Kefauver. Tell us in your own words, and if you want 
to call on Mr. Higgins or Mr. Jago to supplement anything you 
say, you call on them. 

Mr. Whipple. Briefly, I would like to explain it from an admin- 
istrative viewpoint, and then for the details follow Senator Kefauver's 
suggestion and let the two policemen carry on from there. 

A short time after I went into office 1 was frankly very concerned 
with newspaper reports and magazine articles I had read concerning 
the distribution of this so-called pornographic salacious literature. 

I had these two men dispatched to my office to work in what might 
be called a confidential squad, checking newsstands and certain sources 
of what we considered might be distribution points for this so-called 

I instructed these men to follow any and all leads regardless of 
whether they considered them crank letters or any letters of any kind 
from citizens or anybody in any capacity in the city that reported 
the seeing or finding of this literature on stands. 

Together with this one of the denominations in the city — I don't 
want to mention it unless you give me permission to — started a con- 
centrated campaign in their parish, and a certain clergyman was put 
in charge. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything worthwhile like that, mention the 

Mr. Whipple. St. Adens Roman Catholic Church. Father Van 
Wie happens to be in charge. He and Father Belger, also from St. 
Nicholas Roman Catholic Church — they formed committees in their 
parish, comprised primarily of women who went out and visited all the 
newstands, stationery stores, cigarstores or candy stores where this 
literature might be found. 

They called weekly and biweekly meetings. The w^omen would go 
out like a vanguard or a vigilante committee, if you might call it such. 
I'hey would come back and report the locations of where these periodi- 
cals were being sold. 

The priests would send somebody from the police department, or 
one of these women, or both, to this man ; talk to him about the effect 
tliat the sale and distribution of these periodicals would have upon 
the juveniles, particularly in the locality, and ask him to cooperate 
with the drive; to clear the stands of this literature. 

I would say that in more than half the instances the dealers co- 
operated. They in turn would receive an emblem or a shield which 
would be pasted on the window of their stores or establishments, 
where they were selling their merchandise, wdth wording something 
like "Approved." It was a little short gold emblem. 

In some instances we met resistance. I can recall 2 iiistances where 
I happen to know counsel who represented 2 of these people. I called 
them in together with one of the clergymen. We spoke to thei r counsel, 
who in turn spoke to his client, and they immediately cooperated and 
received a shield. 

This has worked tremendously well in the city of Jersey City. 

Statistics I don't have at my fingertips, but I tell you frankly and 
very honestly as far as this city is concerned, this is one problem that 
has not come to the surface as yet. I don't dare say it doesn't exist 
there, but if it does it is well hidden. 

Chairman Kefauver. You mean a'ou have <>ot it under control ? 


Mr. Whipple. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. And you have substantially eliminated it? 

Mr. Whipple. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefaitver. Are j^ou keeping up this effort ? 

Mr. Whipple. Yes, Senator. It is a day-to-day operation, and these 
men have instructions that is their primary job in the department of 
public safety, to stay on top of this problem and keep this filth ofT 
the newsstands in the city of Jersey City. 

I have styled this program a community-counteraction program, 
and I don't want to leave the impression that only the Catholic Church 
is doing something about this; because I firmly believe that whether 
it be Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish, any civic association or society, 
or religious society, could do the same thing or follow the same pattern. 

It is my firm belief that this must start right at the community level 
with the cooperation of all civic, fraternal, and religious societies and 
associations, to rid society of what I consider to be a real menace today. 

Chairman Kefauver. We have information that churches of all 
denominations are doing similar very worthwhile kinds of activities 
in different parts of the country, so that they are all interested. 

Tell us what condition you found when you started out in this 
effort, or do j^ou want to get one of your men to help out? 

Mr. AVhipple. Perhaps one of the policemen should answer that. 

Sergeant Jagg. When we were given this assignment we made checks 
at different times of the day in and around the school areas, stationery 
stores, where most of the juveniles would congregate during lunch 
hours and after school. 

We checked most of these newsstands, and the ones we did find we 
confiscated — there might have been 6, 10, 12 books around. We made 
visits later on and we kept it down more or less to a pretty good 

Mr. BoBO. Did you find this pornographic material the type of 
material which you are speaking about, among schoolchildren or 
children of young age ? 

Sergeant Jago. No, we didn't find it among the children. It was just 
salacious books that were in the stores. That was primarily our in- 
vestigation — to keep that down., because Ave did receive a few com- 
plaints from different parishes that there was some of it around ; but 
up until the time that we — back in April — we didn't run into any of the 
pornographic material at all. 

Mr. BoBo. You were aiming primarily at the comic book and paper- 
bound book in the neAvstands at this time { 

Sergeant Jago. That is right. 

Mr. BoBo. You say in April you ran into the pornographic litera- 
ture trade ? 

Sergeant Jago. That is correct. 

Mr. BoBO. Did it come to your attention this was coming into the 
hands of juveniles? 

Sergeant Jago. At that time due to our efforts in going around we 
had in the course of our stopping different people and going into the 
different stores, we more or less created a good fellowship, and we re- 
ceived a call on April 23 that there Avas some strange thing going on 
in the basement of one of the houses in our city. 

Chairman Kefauvkr. April 23 of last year? 


Sergeant Jago. This year, sir, 1955. Two officers were dispatched 
around there, and wlien they went in — two policemen went down into 
the basement, 

JNlr. Bono. Would 3'on give us the address of where you are talking 

Sergeant Jago. Five hundred and forty Ocean Avenue, in our city. 

Mr. Bono. Do you have the name of the occupant of that property ? 

Sergeant Jago. It so happened that the boy— his parents were the 
owners of that property, and he lived about 3 or 4 streets away from 
there, but he did take these boys into that particular building, but he 
<lidn't reside there. 

Mr. BoBO. His name w^as what ? 

Sergeant Jago. Joseph Cinnelli. 

Mr. BoBO. What is his address? 

■Sergeant Jago. Forty-three Clerk Street, Jersey City. 

Mr. BoBO. All right, sir. 

Sergeant Jago. Two officers went into the basement, and there were 
make-shift chairs or benches there, and there were six boys between 
the ages of 18 and 21, and were at the stage where they were going to 
witness Cinnelli showing these rolls of film. At that time he had six 
to be shown. He did not start his operation when the policemen 

Mr. BoBO. Were these 16-millimeter, 8-millimeter 

Sergeant Jago. He had six 8-millimeter at that time. 

Mr. BoBO. Were they black and white, or colored ? 

Sergeant Jago. They were black and white. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chap wdiose name you gave, is he a 

Sergeant Jago. He w\as 27 years of age. 

Chairman Kefauver. How old were the kids arounds? 

Sergeant Jago. The boys were between the ages of 18 and 21. Two 
of them were in the service, in the Army, and four were leaving the 
following week to go into the service ; and this was a little going-away 
party they were having at that time. 

He was taken to the precinct and questioned, and after talking to 
him for a while he did admit that he had 4 more rolls of film at home ; 
so the detectives went down to the house and came back with some 
more — all told he had 10. 

Mr. Bono. Did he tell you where he had received these films from? 

Sergeant Jago. At that time he did not. That was on Saturday 
night. Over the weekend he was confined to City Prison, and Monday 
morning we asked the magistrate to postpone the case for 24 hours 
to see if we could get the source of his supply. The judge granted 
our request. 

We took him to a captain's office in the precinct where the court 
is also located, and we talked to him for practically 2 hours. He finally 
cooperated and gave us the name of the man who w-as supplying him, 
who on five different occasions he had bought film from. 

Mr. BoBO. What was that man's name? 

Sergeant Jago. At that time he gave us the name of Smitty. He 
Imew him as "Smitty," and all he had was a phone number. 

Mr. BoBO. Did he give you the phone number at that time ? 

Sergeant Jago. He did, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. What was that phone number? 


Sergeant Jago. At that time the phone number was Schuyler 4r-1800. 

Mr. BoBO. Was that in Jersey City, N. J. ? 

Sergeant Jago. No ; that is in New York City. It is a hotel in New 
York City at 91st Street and Broadway. 

Mr. BoBO. What is the name of that hotel ? 

Sergeant Jago. The Grey stone Hotel. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you check with that number to determine who Smitty 

Sergeant Jago. We checked with that number, and made a call for 
Smitty, and we stayed by the phone because Smitty wasn't around; 
but we were told to stand by ; that he would get in touch with us — 
by the operator in that hotel. 

Maybe about half an hour later we received a call from the man 
known as Smitty. We spoke to him on the pretext that I was Cinelli. 
I asked him could he sell me some film. 

He said, "Sure, I will be right over." 

I said, "I don't want it now. How about tomorrow ?" 

Through our investigation knowing this man had never been in 
Jersey City, we made an appointment for Secaucus, which is adjacent 
to our city. 

Mr. BoBO. Secaucus, N. J. ? 

Sergeant Jago. Yes, sir. The next morning we had made a date to 
meet him at 10 : 30, the next morning. Fortunately we were there 
at 9 : 30, and Smitty got off a bus, carrying a brown leather bag ; and 
at that time we went over and apprehended him. 

Mr. Bono. What was the quantity of material that you seized from 
him ? 

Sergeant Jago. He had in that bag at that time, which was the 
26th of April, he had thirteen 8-millinieter rolls of film, and one 
16-millimeter. He had 216 still photographs, one rubber penis, three 
decks of obsence playing cards, 70 cartoon books, six magazines, and 
50 French story hooks. 

Mr. BoBO. We have here an envelope marked "Exhibit No. 5". 
Can 3^ou identify this envelope and say whether or not it contains 
material seized in that particular raid? Do you have the deck of 52 
playing cards showing different pictures of various forms of 
perversion ? 

Sergeant Jago. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Between men and women ? 
Sergeant Jago. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you determine the selling price of those? 

Chairman Kefauver. Can you identify that ? 

Sergeant Jago. Yes; that is the material that he had on his person 
Avlien he was apprehended. 

Chairman Kefauver. The committee staff will take possession of it. 
Mr. BoBO. What was the value of the material ? 
Sergeant Jago. His estimate was about $500 at that time. He said 
it was worth about $500. He gave us information on the still photo- 
graphs which he had 216 of. He said he would receive 50 cents apeice^ 
but like all peddlers, he would take 40 cents or he would take 35 cents 
if that is all you had on your person. 

Mr. BoBO." How much did he offer to sell it to you for. Did he 
determine the sale price to you ? 


Sergeant Jago. Yes; he said 50 cents. Of course, he didn't stick 
right to the price. The decks of obscene playing cards, which were 
just disphxyed here, they were selling for $2 a deck. Magazines, he 
had six of them. They were $2.50 apiece. The French story books 
were anywhere from 2 to 3 dollars. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you determine from him how many trips he made 
back and forth between New York City and into Jersey City ? 

Sergeant Jago. Well, he had never been into Jersey City. 

Mr. BoBO. Or into New Jersey ? 

Sergeant Jago. He did give us information that he did come in 
around the docks of Hoboken, and also on one occasion he had made 
a sale to Cinelli in Secaucus. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you get his police record ? 

Sergeant Jago. We never received a police record on him because 
the arrest was made in Secaucus ; but I don't believe he had a police 
record, because nothing ever came back ; but I know with the coopera- 
tion we received from the Secaucus Police Department, if a record 
came back he would have sent it to us. 

Chairman Kefau\^er. He distributed it around in several different 
places ? 

Sergeant Jago. He did. 

Chairman Kefauver. How did he come to you with that — in a 
suitcase ? 

Sergeant Jago. He had this in a man's overnight bag. He had 
this material in there, and he came over on the bus from the Port of 
Authority Terminal into Secaucus. The buses run over through the 
Lincoln Tunnel, and out that way. 

When he came to Hoboken he used to come over on the ferry — at 
Hoboken, around the docks, 14th Street, the Bethlehem Steel places. 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed. 

Mr. Bono. I have a picture here that I would like you to identify — 
a photograph of the bag this material came in. 

Sergeant Jago. Yes. In the photograph the bag is on the left, and 
the other material is stuff that was seized later on. 

Mr. BoBO. What disposition was made of the case? 

Sergeant Jago. At a hearing in Secaucus, before Magistrate King, 
he was given a year on a disorderly person charge — a year in the 
county jail. He w^as held under $10,000 bail for the action of the 
grand jury of the possession of the obscene literature and the films. 

Mr. BoBo. I don't believe you ever gave us for the record what his 
correct name was, other than the name of Smitty. 

Sergeant Jago. His correct name was Andy Bruckner. 

Mr. BoBO. Is he at present confined in the county jail ? 

Sergeant Jago. The information we received Tuesday night, after 
being here on Tuesday, was that he was released Tuesday evening on 
an appeal oh the disorderly person charge. 

Mr. BoBO. He is now under bond ? 

Sergeant Jago. Yes ; and a subpena by your committee was served 
on him. 

Chairman Kefauver. He is the one we were trying to get out of jail 
to bring over here? 

Sergeant Jago. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. He is now under subpena ? 


Sergeant Jago. Yes. A subpena was served on him as he left the 
jail on Tuesday evening. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you participate in the arrest of a person by the name 
of Selig Wildman ? 

Sergeant Jagg. No ; I did not participate in that arrest at that time. 
That is going back to 1951. 

Mr. BoBO. In 1951 were you familiar, or do you have the record 
of that case with you? 

Sergeant J ago. I have a report here from our police department. 
We knew about the case, but we were assigned to another precinct at 
the time, and it is only since Commissioner Whipple has become di- 
rector that we were given this assignment insofar as lewd materiaL 
I have a record of that particular case going back to November 21, 

Chairman Kefauver. Tell us about it. 

Sergeant Jago. Well, it seems there was some information received 
at that time by Chief James L. McNamara concerning some material 
that was being sold in Ohio. There was a gentleman, a truck-driver, 
who was apprehended there, and he had some material ; and he gave 
the police information in Ohio that he did buy it from a fellow in 
Jersey City, who does business around truck depots. 

The chief assigned Lt. Mark Fallon at that tune, w^ho is now a cap- 
tain, and Detective Carroll to see if he could apprehend this man as 
he was coming over our highways. He was arrested November 21,. 
1951, in a truck. I believe it was about a 2-ton panel delivei-y truck 
wliich he was using, which we have a picture of here, and I believe 
your committee has some photos, too. This is an enlargement of the 
one that we did originally give you. 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. That is a photo of what you found in the 
truck ? 

Sergeant Jago. That is the truck that he was using to transport the 

Chairman KErAU\'ER. Let these pictures be tiled as exhibits. 

Sergeant Jago. When they apprehended him with the truck they 
brought him to police lieadquarters, and at that time they found books, 
cards, pictures, pamphlets, and other obscene literature, and also in 
his truck he had men's work gloves and overalls, and stutf that he 
would sell at these depots, and while making a sale of this particular 
type he would also try to induce them to buy some of this obscene 
material, which he did sell to them ; and if they went on the road to 
some other city they would dispose of it there or keep it for their 
own use. 

Mr. BoBo. Did you investigate that truckdrivers bought this ma- 
terial and transported it to other cities? 

Sergeant Jago. The original complaints came from "Ohio, from 
the cliief of police of one of the cities in Ohio, that a man arrested 
there gave information tliat he bought it from Wildman. 

Mr. BoBo. He was the truckdriver tliat picked it up in Jersey City? 

Sergeant Jago. That is correct. 

Mr. BoBO. Was there any evaluation placed on the seizure? 

Sergeant Jago. There was no evaluation, but it was given in ton- 
nage. They did search his garage where he lived. He did reside 


at that time at 233 Union Street, in Jersey City; and they found 
in his garag-e about a ton of this particular type of niateriah 

Cliairnian Kkfaivkr. Since he has been arrested and has a record, 
will you give his full name and address. 

Sergeant Jago. His full name is Selig Wildman. 

Chairman Kefalvi'^I!. What is his address? 

Sergeant Jago. He is 66 years of age. He was then in 1951. He 
lived at 233 T^nion Street, Jersey City. 

Mr. BoBO. Was he tried and convicted 'i 

Sergeant Jagg. He was tried and convicted, and sentenced to 2 to 3 
years m State prison. 

Mr. BoiiO. At the present time he is in the State prison ? 

Sergeant Jago. Xo; he has been released. He has served his sen- 

Chairman Kefauver. This is the sign that you put in the stores 
that complied to get rid of all that material ? 

^Ir. Whipple. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let that be Hied for the record as an exhibit. 

Mr. Bono. Detective Higgins, did you have anything j^ou wished to 
add to what Sergeant Jago has testihed to? 

Detective Higgins. Sergeant Jago covered it pretty well, but he 
didn't mention the seizure in New York. I was designated, together 
with a sergeant from Syracuse, and we came 

Mr. BoBo. What was his name? 

Sergeant Jago. I have it here, sir. Gustave Nicolia. 

Detective Higgins. Sergeant Nicolia and I came to New York to 
make a seizure of some salacious literature and obscene books. 
Bruckner had given us the address of his hotel. 

Mr. Bono. The Bruckner you si)eak of is Andy Bruckner who was 
mentioned in previous testimony? 

Detective Higgins. That is right, sir. He gave us permission to 
come over and get the rest of this material. We went to the 100th 
Street Station, and we picked up Detective Vincent Satriano. He 
was of the 24th squad. 

Chairman Kefauver. The New York City Police? 

Detective Higgins. New York City. We went to room 411 with the 
superintendent of the hotel, or the manager of the hotel. 

:Mr. BoBO. Eooin 411 of what hotel? 

Detective Higgins. Greystone Hotel, 91st Street and Broadway. 
We seized 14 rolls of film and quite a quantity of other literature — 
magazines and story books. There were 3 steel suitcases containing 
12 rolls of 8-millimeter film, and two 16-milIimeter films; 6 cartons 
of material — the same type that was found in the bag he was carry- 
ing when he was arrested. 

I think your committee has a photo of the material that was picked 
up in New York. It is right here in this picture. He valued it at 
about $600. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you determine wdiether Mr. Bruckner ever operated 
in any States other than the States of New^ York and New Jersey? 

Detective Higgins. He said that was about the area that he 
covered — New Jersey and New York. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who is the New York policeman who co- 
o])erated with vou? 


Detective Higgins. Lieutenant Weiss was the desk officer in charge 
of the 24th squad, and Detective Vincent Satriano, shield No. 1646, 
24th squad, New York City. 

Chairman Kefauver. You had an authorization from Bruckner to 
come over and pick up the rest of this ? 

Detective Higgins. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefatts^er. I wanted to have the record made clear that 
these officers worked with you. 

This man Bruckner was what you call a foot peddler ? 

Detective Higgins. That is all. 
' Chairman Kefauver. Did you tell how much profit he was making 
every week? 

Detective Higgins. About $300 a week would be his profit. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that what he said? 

Detective Higgins. That is what he claimed. He was paying $115 
for a room in the hotel. 

Chairman Kefauver. $115 a week? 

Detective Higgins. A month. 

Chairman Kefauver. I assume the hotel didn't know what his 
business was? 

Detective Higgins. I doubt very much whether they did. 

Chairman Kefauver. I would like to give them the benefit of the 
doubt. He was paying for his room ? 

Detective Higgins. That is right, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you think by looking at the way he lived 
that is probably the kind of money he was making? 

Detective Higgins. I would sa}^ so. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Jago, do you have anything else to add? 

Sergeant Jago. From sitting in on these hearings, and during the 
questioning of Bruckner — I would like to say that he did mention, 
as the inspector from Washington mentioned before, this fellow Al 
Stone. We were trying to find out who were the big men. He men- 
tioned Al Stone, and gave us names of local men which we turned over 
to Mr. Butler of your committee. 

Chairman Kefau^^er. You have helped Mr. Butler a great deal. 
Mr. Butler is a lieutenant from the Dallas Police force, and he was 
with us during the crime investigations. 

Sergeant Jago. He did mention Morris Gillman. As far as his 
source of supply, it was ]\Iorris Gillman. About 41 years of age, 1415 
Davidson Avenue, Bronx, N. Y. If he needed any material he called 
Tremont 2-7940 from the Greystone Hotel, and Mr. Gilman came 
down, met him outside, said hello, and then they went up into the 
room and did the business so far as transactions of material were 

Chairman Kefauver. Let us get the telephone number correct. 

Sergeant Jago. TRemont 2-7940. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Jago? 

Mr. Martin. Is that the same Gillman the committee has under 
subpena now ? 

Sergeant Jago. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know if the telephone number is still in use? 

Sergeant Jago. No ; I wouldn't know whether it is still in use or not. 

Mr. BoBO. Did this man make a statement he had ever bought mate- 
rial from Al Stone ? 


Sergeant Jago. No. It was hearsay as far as he was concerned. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else 'i 

Sergeant Jago. I am looking at our report. He did mention another 
phone number that he contacted in Brooklyn, who also supplied him 
witli material. He called the number HYacinth 3-8636, and he would 
ask for Joe. Sometimes he would get Joe, or he would get Joe's 
mother, who would leave word with Joe to call Andy at the hotel. 
This number was traced through the telephone company, and it was 
listed to a John Robbins, residence 59 East 96th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

Mr. Martin. Was any effort ever made to identify this Joe ? 

Sergeant Jago. In Brooklyn ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, 

Sergeant Jago. No, sir. 

Mr. Martin. Were you able to obtain any information as to the 
character of his operation ? 

Sergeant Jago. Outside of Bruckner saying he was Mr. Big. 

Mr. Martin. Did Bruckner also tell you about the character of the 
car he was driving, or anything of that character ? 

Sergeant Jago. He did mention that he had a Nash car. I believe he 
said the color was green. 

Chairman Kefauver. These numbers may be reassigned to someone 
else, and we don't want to cause any trouble. I will have to order these 
telephone numbers given be placed in executive session of the commit- 
tee, and I will ask the cooperation of the press in not putting the 
numbers out. They may be asignecl to someone else, and we don't 
want to embarrass anyone. 

Is there anything else ? 

Sergeant Jago. I believe that is all. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Higgins, did j-ou have any observations 
to make ? 

Mr. HiGGiNs. Jago did a good job. He didn't leave much for me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Whipple. 

Mr. Whipple. I think that is all. 

Chairman Kefaua^er, Tell us your thoughts of what the Federal 
Government can do to help this problem. 

Mr. Whipple. It is my considered opinion that without effective 
Federal legislation, dealing as you and I know with the interstate 
transportation of these articles, any effort at the community level or 
the State level, of course, would be helpful ; but I think we need strin- 
gent Federal legislation with very severe penalties. 

I am not too sure consideration shoiddn't be given by the Congress 
to maybe install some sort of a plan like we have with the Depart- 
ment of Agriculture — having these sources of distribution checked, 
to see what kind of material is being printed and sent out to the 
various buyers of these materials. 

I realize there might be constitutional prohibitions to something 
like that, but at any rate I think the Congress should go to work im- 
mediately and pass stringent legislation dealing with the interstate 
transportation of this pornographic material. 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, newspapers and magazines that have 
a second-class mail permit have to give the name and address of the 
publisher. All of this stuff' that you are talking about, I have ob- 
served that none of it has any name of where it is published, and no 

65263—55 9 


responsibility whatsoever as to where it came from. That would at 
least help trace it down ; wouldn't it ? 

Mr. Whipple. Yes, it would. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have shown what can be done in a large 
city by community interest of church people. I think that is an ex- 
cellent example that I hope will be heard all around the Nation. 

Mr. Whipple. Thank you, Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. I want again to compliment you, Mr. Com- 
missioner, and Mr. Higgins and JSIr. Jago, and those who have worked 
with you, on a job well done, which I have heard a good deal about; 
and also to point out what I am sure you know, that if you relax your 
efforts you will have the problem with you back again. 

Mr. Whipple. Thank you very much. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your 

We will have a 10-minute recess. 

(A short recess was taken.) 

Chairman Kefalwer. I saw Mr. Younglove, a member of the New 
York Assembly, here a little while ago. He is also a member of 
Mr. Fitzpatrick's committee. 

Mr. Younglove, would you come up and sit up here with us? We 
would be glad to have you. 

( Mr. Younglove took a seat at the bench. ) 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have some matter you wish 
to present at this time? 

Mr. BoBo. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

I would like to correct an erroneous impression concerning Mr. Roy 
Aid, who was subpenaed by this subcommittee. He was called be- 
cause he is a well-known writer, and supplied very valuable techni- 
cal information to the subcommittee stati'. He did not fail to answer 
his subpena but reported to the subcommittee's office and not in the 

Chairman Kefauver. We will be glad to have that correction made. 

Now, who is our next witness ? 

Mr. I3oBO. Lt. Ignatius Sheehan, Chicago Police Department. 


Mr. Bobo. Lieutenant Sheehan, vour first name is spelled I-g-n-a- 

Lieutenant Sheehan. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Bobo. And you are head of the censor squad of the Chicago 
Police Department ; is that the name of it ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. How long have you been head of the censor squad of the 
Chicago Police Department ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Since 1952. 

Mr. BoBO. For how many years have you been connected with the 
Chicago Police Department ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Thirty-three years. 

Mr. BoBO. Has all of that time been devoted to so-called censor 
squad vice or moral squad? 


Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. The last 4 years, the past 4 years. 

Mr. BoBO. Is part of your duties as head of the censor squad the 
keeping up of traffic in pornographic literature as one of your prime 
responsibilities ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any estimate as to the extent of what the 
traffic is in pornographic material in the city of Chicago? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, that would be hard to say. It is from 
the arrest of distributors that it would run into large figures. 

Chairman Kefauver. Lieutenant Sheehan, that microphone is not 
for the room; it is just for the radio or television; so you speak up so 
that we can hear you. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. ;Most of this business — and you are familiar with the 
operations of those dealing in pornography — is a surreptitious bus- 
iness and an under-the-counter business; is that correct? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you been able in your dealings with those selling 
pornographic material, to determine a source of supply for those you 
have arrested ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. First, how big did you say the business was? 
I suppose Chicago is like most other cities, the same problem every- 
where, even in rural sections. Is it big business in Chicago? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir; that's right, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. A lot of it hard to keep your fingers on ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes ; it is a tremendous business. 

Mr. BoBO. The type of pornography with which you have come in 
contact, is it generally the type of pornography that has been de- 
scribed here this morning by the other police officers? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you find a great number of movie film, 16-millimeter, 
35-millimeter, and 8-millimeter movie film? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Mostly 16-millimeter and 8-millimeter, in the 

Chairman Kefauver. Are these films that you are talking of movies 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Some of them ; yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you discovered them in color also ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. In color also. 

Mr. BoBO. Does the pornographic traffic in Chicago also include 
the deck of 52 playing cards, the 4-by-5 French novelty, the 2-by-4 
comic-book type, plus the still photos in color and black and white 
pictures describing all acts of perversion? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. Has your investigation into dealers of pornographic 
material in Chicago shown that it is produced in that city? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Has your investigation revealed where the pornographic 
literature reaching Chicago comes from? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheelian, I believe you participated in the 
arrest of a person by the name of Frank Mustari, alias Frank Lano ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 


Mr. BoBO. On what date was Mr. Mustari, alias Lano, arrested? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. In February of 1954. 

Mr. BoBO. At that time what was his address ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. 1356 North Parkside Avenue, Chicago, 111. 

Mr. BoBO. Is Mr. Lano presently living at this address or is he 
incarcerated ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir; he is living at that address. 

Mr, BoBO. When you arrested INIr. Lano in Chicago, what was the 
type of pornography which he had in his possession ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. He was arrested by the Oak Park Police De- 
partment. They got something like $15,000 worth of different material. 

Mr. BoBO. That included films, books, pictures, playing cards? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Lano reveal to either you or — were you engaged 
in that case, Lieutenant ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Indirectly ; yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. You participated in that ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. It came from our office. 

Chairman KEFAimsR. You had no supervision over it; is that it 2 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Lano, or did your investigation reveal where 
he had received this material from? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Through our investigation; yes. Not from 
Mr. Mustari, but another party. 

Mr. BoBO. Your investigation revealed where it was from. Where 
was that. Lieutenant? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. From New York City. 

Mr. BoBO. Did your investigation reveal from whom he received 
it in the city of New York ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Who is that person? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. A1 Stone, alias Abraham Rubinstein, alias 
Abraham Rubin, Ruben Stone, and Stoney, Ruben AMiite. Those are 
his aliases. He was known to us as Al Stone. 

Mr. BoBO. Known to the Chicago police as Al Stone? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did your investigation show how Mr. Lano received this 
material from Mr. Stone? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. And how did he receive this material from Mr. Stone? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, they will come to New York City and 
procure a hotel room. After putting their car in a designated 

Mr. BoBo. Do you have the name of that designated garage? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Continue, please. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Then Lano would call Al Stone. In turn, 
Stone would pick up, or have Lano's car picked up. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have the number at which he would call Stone ? 
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Iveeauver. The number will be treated as in executive 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. All right, sir. Continue. 


Lieutenant Sheehan. Is it all right to read it ? 

Mr. BoBO. Don't read tlie number ; no, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Give the subcommittee the number. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Write it out and give it to the subcommittee. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. I think the subcommittee has it. 

Mr. BoBO. We already have it. 

Chairman Kefauver. The staff will furnish the number. 

Go ahead. We will call it No. X. 

Mr. Sheehan. Shall I continue? 

Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir; go right ahead. He would call Mr. Stone 

Lieutenant Sheehan. And Stone would have his car picked up. 
He would buy about $2,000 worth of material from Stone. It would 
be put in his car and his car delivered back to the garage. Then he 
would pick it up and return to Chicago. 

Mr. BoBO. Was there any value put on this $2,000 worth of material 
as it was delivered in Chicago, its resale value? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. What was the value of each carload? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Oh, about $5,000. 

Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Lano state how many trips he made between 
New York City and Chicago ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, our informant did, he made four trips 
a month. 

Mr. BoBO, He would average approximately $12,000 a month, con- 
sidering $3,000 profit each trip and 4 trips per month? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. At times he would stop off and 
drop off a load at Indianapolis on his way back. 

Mr. BoBO. Indianapolis, Ind. ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did he state to whom he would drop this load off, or 
did your informant, or did your investigation reveal to whom he 
would deliver this material in Indianapolis ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; he did not give us the name. 

Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, are you familiar with the Fuller 
Brush Man series of comics — and let me say that this a a plagiarized 
name from the Fuller Brush Co.. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. BoBO. Do you have any information as to who the originator 
and chief distributor of this particular type of pornographic comic 

Lieutenant Sheehan. A1 Stone was originally reported as the 
original printer and originator of this Fuller Brush Man porno- 
graphic type of literature. 

]\Ir. BoBO. This particular type of series covered all types of sexual 
perversion ? 

Lieutenant Sheehaist. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. In a comic book drawing ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Drawing ; yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. From the sources of information available to you as head 
of the censor board of the Chicago Police Department, do you have 
any opinion as to the size of dealer in pornographic material that 
Mr. Al Stone is? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; I have not. 


Mr. BoBO. Has his name come to your attention in any other case 
other than this one? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant, did you also take part, or are you familiar 
with the arrest of Mr. Clarence Anderson of Elgin, 111. ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Was that raid made in cooperation with the Illinois 
State Police? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you determine during the course of this investigation 
the source of supply for this particular dealer ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, he was a printer — he was a printer and 
distributor himself. 

Mr. Bobo. He was the printer and distributor and publisher ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Himself; sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. That was one of the big sources of supply in 
that part of the country ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. In the Middle West, yes. 

Mr. BoBO. During the raid on this man Anderson, how much ma- 
terial, pornographic material, was confiscated ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, we valued it at, the police value, at 
about $25,000. 

Mr. BoBo. Did it consist of two truckloads of material ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. What size trucks? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, big stake trucks, the regular large 
trucks ; big trucks. 

Mr. BoBo. In this particular seizure were there 1,000 rolls of porno- 
graphic film ? , 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Anderson process this film himself ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Also included in this raid were there 1,500 rolls of porno- 
gra]ihic film which had not yet been printed ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, that was the raw film that had not 
been — just the raw film, 

JNIr. BoBo. It had never been taken off? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. I presume that was what he had it for. 

JNIr. Bobo. Did you determine during this investigation where the 
models or the actors in these pornographic films were obtained? 

Lietenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bobo. Where were these pictures taken ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. One was taken at 746 Oakwood Boulevard. 
That's tlie Oakwood Hotel. On the South Side of Chicago. It was 
taken u]i in a hotel room. 

Mr. BoBO. These people would just rent a hotel room and go in 
there with their equipment, without knowledge of the hotel ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, this man named Edgar Flagg. 

Mr. BoBO. How do you spell that, F-1-a-g-g? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir; F-1-a-g-g. 

Mr. Bobo. "Wliat is his address ; where does he live ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. He lives at 746 Oakwood, and he was man- 
ager of the hotel. 

Mr. BoBO. Was he aware of the fact that pornographic films were 
beinsf taken in his hotel? 


Lieutencant Sheehan. These girls said that he took the pictures, 
that Flagg took the pictures. 

Mr. Btmo. He took the pictures and in turn he sold them to 
Anderson ? 

Lieutenant Sheeiian. Either that or he sent them out there for 
processing. That is how we got them, from Anderson. 

Mr. BoBO. And this 1,000 rolls of lewd film, were some of them of 
the same title or the same acting, or were each one of the 1,000 a 
different film? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. They were different film, each one. They 
were the same type of acts of perversion. 

Mr. BoBO. The same type of acting, but each one was a different 
subject and a different film? 

Lieutenant Spieehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr, BoBO. Did you have an opportunity to view any of this film. 
Lieutenant ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Included among the actors, both among the men and 
the women, were there any apparent juveniles as actors in these 
films ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did the records at the time at which you raided Mr. 
Anderson show that Mr. Anderson had bought quantities of porno- 
graphic material from others, or did he produce all of them? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, I would say some of it was sent to him 
through — produced for him. They would take the original film and 
have him process it for them. 

Mr. BoBO. Did any of his records indicate that he had purchased 
material from a person by the name of Morris and a person by the 
name of Eddie ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Were there any other identifying marks' concerning the 
men Morris and Eddie ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. The only thing was Flint, Mich. 

Mr. BoBO. The name of Morris and the name of Eddie would fit 
the Michigan notation? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Anderson describe to you or identify to you 
who Morris and Eddie were? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, he said they were the same, one and the 
same person. 

Mr. BoBO. Just going under different names? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Different names wdien they buy; and that 
they would buy from him, this one particular Ecldie and Morris. 
Then Morris would distribute it all over the Middle West. 

Mr. BoBO. Did Anderson give you any idea as to how distribution 
was made? Was it made through the mails, through Railway Ex- 
press, or through private conveyance? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Mostly through private conveyance, automo- 

Mr. BoBO. When it was loaded on these stake-body trucks was it just 
in the process of being delivered some place, at a distance ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No. It was all loose in the back of his garage, 
in his garage. 


Mr. BoBO, The trucks were in his garage loaded ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir; it wasn't in — it was loose in his 
garage, and he loaded them into tracks. 

Mr. BoBO. During this investigation did you determine what the 
wholesale price of 16-millimeter film was ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. And what price was what? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, anywhere from $25 to whatever the 
traffic would allow, and that he would charge. But that was the 

Mr. BoBO. That is, the film after it had been made into a picture? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. And he would sell it for anything the traffic would bear, 
ranging from $25 up? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. That was for each film? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. For each film. 

Mr. BoBO. Did there appear to be any type of connection between 
dealers and buyers in this film, such as trading in one roll of film at a 
reduced price for a new roll of film? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. I got a receipt here from Ander- 
son's Film Rental Service, where Morris bought film and he owed 
$659. He traded in other film back to him of $360. 

Mr. BoBO. That would more than balance the difference ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let that be made an exhibit, Mr. Anderson's 
firm name seems to be Anderson's Film Rental Service, 1047 Morton 
Avenue, Elgin, 111. Is that it? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. He has a legitimate film store in 
the front. In the back in his garage is where he had all the obscene 

(The receipt referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 11," and is as 


Exhibit No. 11 

Anderson's Film Eental Service 
elgin, ill. 

Order No 

Name : Morris. 
Address: Flint, Mich. 

Oct. 27, 1952: 

Bouglit goods $410 

Paid 100 

Balance 319 

Nov. 13, 1952: 

Goods 340 

Films and cash ($275 in films) 360 

Balance 299 

Dec. 18, 1952: 

Balance 77 

Paid in full. 


Mr. BoBO. In addition to the arrest of Anderson in this case, were 
any other persons arrested ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. This Edgar Flagg, I spoke about, 
that took the pictures up in the hotel room. And a girl named The- 
resa Anderson, Gene Newton. 

Mr. Bono. Do you have the addresses of these persons ? 

Chairman Kefauvek. Well, were they convicted ? 

Lieutenant Shi-^ehax. No, sir. Flagg was convicted. The girls 
were all discharged. 

Chairman Kefauver. They were all disciplined? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did they plead guilty ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No ; but they testified for the State. 

Chairman Kefauver. They said that they were participants? 

Lieutentant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Suppose you leave their names out. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bono. In addition to the film, this confiscation also included 
600 decks of pornographic playing cards? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let me see if I understand. This 1,000 rolls 
of films, the pictures had been taken, were they all different pictures? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Every one was a different subject. It was all 
on the same pornographic type. 

Chairman Kefauver. The same type, but each one was a differ- 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr, CiiuMBRis. Lieutenant, from those couldn't more be developed ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Oh, thousands. 

Mr. Chumbris. As many as you wanted ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. He could keep developing as many as he 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. What sentence did Clarence Anderson receive as a re- 
sult of this raid ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. He received 2 years probation. 

Mr. BoBO. Two years probation ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Has he come to your attention at any time since that ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO, Was he again caught selling pornographic material in 
Walworth County, Wis. ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

IVIr. Bono. What was the charge against him in Walworth Comity? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. He was charged, he was arrested on Febru- 
ary 14, 1954, charged with reckless driving, and possession of obscene 
film. He was fined $750 and costs, and the films were destroyed by 
the order of the court. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let me see if I understand this correctly. 
You mean this first operation, with all this material about which you 
are talking, he was convicted after a trial in court and given 2 years 
and put on probation ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. In what court was that? 


Lieutenant SnEEHAisr. That was the judge of the county court of 
the county of Geneva, 111. It wasn't in our county where the arrest 
was made. We had to try the case in Geneva County. 

Chairman Kefauver. You were down there during the trial? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, are you also familiar with a case 
involving a Mr. Sam Atlas, A-t-1-a-s? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo, Do you have the address of Mr. Atlas ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. oiOl Beach Street, Chicago, 111. 

Mr. BoBO. In this case, can you give me the approximate retail 
value of the material seized, pornographic material ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes. It would be about, around $20,000 in 

Mr. BoBO. What was involved in this, was it the same type of 
material ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir ; 16-millimeter motion-picture films, 
all motion picture-printer and developing tanks; 1,958 pages of 
paper-bound obscene books; 800 obscene photographs; 117 red carton 
decks of obscene playing cards; and then 35 of the black and white 
obscene playing cards; 11 reels of 8-millimeter movie film; 1 black 
plastic viewer with 15 obscene poses on 35 millimeter film. 

Mr. BoBO. Prior to this time had the Chicago police department 
been aware of any large scale traffic in pornographic literature? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir; not to any great extent. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it your opinion that in the last 5 years the traffic 
in pornographic literature has greatly increased? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. How many men do you have assigned in the Chicago 
police department to pornography investigation ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. We have four assigned that specialize in 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any information of pornography coming 
into the hands of children of school age or younger ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; I can't say that I do. 

ISIr. BoBO. No case has ever come to your attention where a child 
received pornographic literature or viewed pornographic literature in 
any manner ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. We had one case where, I think he was a 12- 
year-old boy, came to school and he had 1 card of a 52-deck, obscene 
playing card deck. The principal called us and we found out he got 
it from his grandfather; that he lived with his grandfather and he 
got it out of his dresser drawer. 

Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, you have been very active in the 
Illinois Legislature. Would you have any recommendations that you 
would make to make the traffic in pornography more difficult ? 

Mr. Sheehan. You mean from 

Mr. BoBO. From the Federal viewpoint. 

Chairman KE^AU^^ER. Tell what he tried to do in the Legislature of 
Illinois this year. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. We asked for a bill, which is now in the leg- 
islature, making it a violation to sell to minors, any boy or girl under 
18 years of age. 


Chairman Kefauver. Making it a felony ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; a misdemeanor — not on pornography, 
on girlie books and these pocket-sized books. That was what they 
were doing in Springfield. We got the law on 

Chairman Kefauver. You got the law passed ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. It is pending now in the legislature. 

Chairman Kefauver. The legislature is still in session ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you have a copy of the bill you proposed ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let it be filed as an exhibit. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. I have a copy of my statement before the 

Chairman Kefau^^er. All right, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, in view of your experience in the 
Anderson case, where such a large quantity of this material was seized 
that had moved both intrastate and in interstate traffic, as a policeman 
would it not be helpful to you if the degree of the offense was not 
raised from a misdemeanor to a felony ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Oh, it would help us an awful lot. The best 
sentence we ever got was where a jail sentence was proAnded of 6 
months in the county jail. You can either fine, or 6 months in the 
county jail. It is just a misdemeanor in the State of Illinois now. 

Mr. BoBO. Usually it amounts to nothing more than a small fine, 
which is practically a license to operate? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Nine out of every 10 is a' fine. 

Chairman Kefauver. Lieutenant Sheehan, is there anything else 
that you want to tell that would be helpful to the committee? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. I think I covered everything I recall. 

Mr. Martin. I have a question. Senator, if I may. 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. Martin. Lieutenant Sheehan, I notice in examining this Atlas 
inventory here, that included in the seizure was one .45 caliber auto- 
matic pistol, Army Colt, with clip and several rounds of ammunition. 
I woncler if you could shed any light on that ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No; I cannot. He was given the gun back 
bv order of the court. He showed where he owned it and was entitled 
to it. 

Mr. Martin. In connection with Sam Atlas, there is a record here, 
too, of a peddler who went to the house and obtained some material. 
One Walter Liepert, stuff that was confiscated from his car included 
three rifles. 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, he claimed he was hunting; they were 
hunting rifles. 

Mr. Martin. That is all. 

Mr. Chumbris. Lieutenant, Anderson was placed on probation in a 
court in Illinois ; is that correct ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Then after he was put on probation he went into 
Wisconsin ; is that correct ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And while in Wisconsin he was apprehended, ar- 
rested, convicted, and placed on probation again in Wisconsin ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. 


Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any information as to whether the 
Wisconsin court was advised of the probation in Illinois? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. Of course we knew about it when 
we wrote — I believe it was in the — we read it in our newspapers where 
he had been arrested and convicted up in Walworth, and we wrote to 
the sheriff up there, and he verified it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any information that the State's 
attorney in Illinois contacted the State's attorney in Wisconsin in 
this matter ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. It would be a breach of parole would if not 
if he was caught the second time ? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. It would. Our State's attorney wrote the 
judge of Geneva, 111., Geneva County, and told him about the arrest 
in Wisconsin, and how he violated his probation, but we never heard 

Chairman Kefauver. Anderson is still out? 

Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir ; he is still in business. 

Chairman Kefau^^er. Thank you very much. Lieutenant Sheehan. 
We appreciate your cooperation with our subcommittee. Thank you 
for coming here to testify. 

Who is our next witness, Mr. Bobo? 

]\Ir. Bobo. Sgt. Joseph E. Brown. 


(Sergeant Brown was sworn b}^ the chairman.) 

Chairman Kefau^ter. You may proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. Bobo. You are Sgt. Joseph E. Brown, of the Detroit Police 
Department ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Cliairman Kefaua-er. Sergeant Brown, you are a great big man. 
Will you speak loudly so everybody can hear ; will you, sir ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. How long have you been with the Detroit Police Depart- 
ment, sir? 

Sergeant Brown. Since October 15, 1945. 

Mr. Boiio. At the present time what is your duty assignment? 

Sergeant Brown. I am the sergeant assigned to the censorship 
bureau of the police department. 

Mr. Bobo. Included in that responsibility is books, magazines, 
movies, night clubs, and pornographic literature ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bobo. Would one of the primary duties which you have be the 
enforcement of the laws regarding pornography ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. That is one of the most important 
functions of the bureau. The separation of obscene literature and the 
apprehension and conviction of the people that deal in it. 

Mr. BoB(j. Sergeant Brown, has it ever come to your attention in 
Detroit as to whether or not pornographic material is coming into the 
hands of juveniles? 


Sergeant Brown. I can think of no specific instance where it has 
come into the hands of juveniles. If it has, it woukl be an isolated 

Now I am speaking of out-and-out pornography, with which the 
subcommittee has been dealing, I presume. 

Mr. BoBO. This is usually a very clandestine type of operation. You 
do not deal with the juvenile squad yourself, do you? 

Sergeant Browx. No, sir. We have a youth bureau in the police 
department that has been in function about 3 or 4 years, established 
by the police commissioner. They deal primarily with juvenile prob- 
lems in the city of Detroit. 

Mr. BoBO. Sergeant Brown, on May 18, 1953, did you have an 
occasion to arrest a person by the name of Al Stone ? 

Sergeant Brown. I did. 

Mr. BoBO. For what was his arrest? 

Sergeant Brown. For possession of obscene movie film. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you have the address of that man, Al Stone ? 

Sergeant Brown. The address that he gave at the time of his appre- 
hension was 1639 41st Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. That was what the 
driver's license indicated was his address. 

Mr. BoBO. Did he have other aliases? 

Sergeant Brown. He was known as Al Stone. The operator's 
license was issued to Abraham Rubin. 

Mr. BoBO. How do you spell it ? 

Sergeant Brown. R-u-b-i-n. Those are the two names that I know 
Mr. Stone by. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have his record that would indicate any other 

Sergeant Brown. I have a record here from the Detroit Police 
Department, Al Stone, mug No. 109385, showing 10 arrests. At the 
time of these arrests, they were all Abraham Rubin. 

Mr. BoBO. All going under the name of Abraham Rubin ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. When he was arrested in Detroit on May 18, 1953, what 
did you say he had in his possession ? 

Chairman Kefauver. You have read from the police record. Is 
that the official document there? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. That is the request for a warrant, Mr. 
Chairman, that was drawn up. 

Chairman Kefauver. All these arrests, is that on your official rec- 
ord there ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you file that so we can have that as a 
part of our record? You also have his photograph there? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. That will, then, be filed as exhibits. 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 12," and is on file with 
the subcommittee.) 

Chairman KEFx\u^^E'R. Where were these arrests? 

Sergeant Brown. The one arrest was in Detroit. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where were these others on the record? 

Sergeant Brown. Starting chronologically. In 1928, New York 
City. The charge was rape. He was discharged. 


1930, New York City. Reckless driving. 30 days. 

1932, in Poughkeepsie, N. Y. The charge was possession of ob- 
scene literature. Six months, suspended sentence. 

In 1933, Darien, Conn. Possession of obscene pictures. Sentenced 
to a fine of $250 and costs, and 6 months in jail. The jail term, I 
believe, was SS. I think that indicates suspended sentence. 

1933, in Buffalo, N. Y. There is a number here, I don't know what 
the number indicates. It is 1141-P. L., it is apparently a law num- 
ber. He received 3 months in the Erie County Penitentiary, that's 
Erie County, N. Y. 

Mr. BoBO. For the record, that 1141-P. L. is the Obscene Statute of 
the State of New York 

Sergeant Browx. I was not aware of that, 1141-P. L. is the way 
it is indicated on the record. 

And in 1939, Erie County — no ; that's the same record, I am sorry. 
It refers to the above-mentioned arrest. 

In 1934, in Albany, N. Y., possession of obscene pictures. Seventy- 
five dollar fine or 30 days in Albany County Jail. 

1934, in Providence, R. I., possession of indecent literature. Thirty 
days in the Providence County Jail. 

1934, in Howard, R. I., possession of obscene pictures. Sentenced 
to 30 days and costs. May 18, 1953, Detroit, Mich., possession of 
obscene literature, $100 fine and 90 days imprisonment in the Detroit 
House of Correction. 

Mr, Bobo. Wlien he was arrested in Detroit he had 558 rolls of 
obscene movies ? 

Sergeant Brown. That is right. Five f undred and fifty -eight rolls 
of motion-picture film, consisting of 501 8-millimeter, and 57 16-milli- 
meter prints. Of these reels, they were pornography, per se, each 
and every one. 

Mr. Bobo. Showing all types of sexual perversion ? 

Sergeant Brown, That is right. 

Mr. Bobo. Did you also find on Mr. Stone, alias Rubin, an address 

Sergeant Brown Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bobo, Listed in this address book, who was listed in this address 
book, Sergeant ? 

Chairman Ivefauver. Well, let's see about that, now. 

Let the address book be in executive session, but you can tell where 
connections are made in the address book. 

Sergeant Brown. New Orleans, La.; Utica, N. Y.; Philadelphia, 
Pa. ; Syracuse, N. Y. ; Utica, N. Y. ; Brooklyn, N. Y. ; Brooklyn, N. Y. ; 
New York City; Philadelphia, Pa.; Chicago, 111.; Chicago, 111.; Chi- 
cago. 111.; Bellaire, Ohio; Jacksonville, Fla.; St. Louis, Mo.; Pitts- 
burgh, Pa.; Harrisburg, Pa.: New Orleans, La.; Chelsea, Mass. 
Chicago, 111.; Sheffield, Ala,; St. Louis, Mo; Columbus, Ohio; Lan- 
caster, Ohio; Jacksonville, Fla.; Louisville, Ky.; Pittsburgh, Pa.: 
Gettysburg, Pa.; Scranton, Pa.; Washington, D, C; Indianapolis 
Ind. ; Pittsburgh, Pa. ; Marbury, Md. ; Pittsburgh, Pa. ; Chicago, 111. : 
Detroit, Mich.; Louisville, Ky.; Indianapolis, Ind.; Birmingham 
Ala.; Rome, Ga.; Birmingham, Ala.; Atlanta, Ga.; Linton, Ind. 
Flint, Mich.; St, Louis, Mo,; New Orleans, La,; Baltimore, Md. 
Reading, Pa, ; Richmond, Va, ; Salisbury, N. C. 


Now, there are other names with those numbers indicated in those 
cities listed. 

Mr. BoBO. Were any of the persons listed on that list known to you 
to be dealei-s in pornographic material ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. The Bizon Sales, 12th Street and Pin- 
gree in Detroit, Mich. The proprietor of that establishment has twice 
been convicted of the sale and possession of obscene literature in the 
city of Detroit. The first time he received a fine of either $90 or $100 
under the misdemeanor. On the second offense we prosecuted this 
defendant under a statute that we have in Michigan, making the sec- 
ond offense a high misdemeanor, which is punishable by $500 fine or 
a year in the House of Correction. He was convicted of the second 
offense and was fined $100 or 1 year. 

1 might also add at this time, if I may, that in the State of Michigan 
under our statutes 753-43, under which we operate, the obscenity 
statute, the third offender, upon conviction, or the third offense is 
treated as a felony, and we have 1 defendant that was convicted about 
3 or 4 weeks ago, or he was convicted about 3 or 4 months ago under 
the second offense of the act. He received 10 months probation. 

One of the officers from our bureau made another purchase of ob- 
scene material about a month ago from this defendant. He was imme- 
diately ordered at a probation hearing to serve 10 months in the Detroit 
House of Correction, and he will then be tried in felony court as a third 

Mr. BoBo. Was there also taken from ]Mr. Stone at this time a road 
map showing the route that he had covered ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute, before you get to that. 

Sergeant Brown, the names in the address book that you investi- 
gated turned out to be pornographic dealers ; is that not so ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. This one name in particular, Mr. Chair- 
man, was 

Chairman Kefauver. You have Mr. Chumbris who gave the story 
about Lou Saxton in Pittsburgh, who was a dealer, in his testimony 
the day before yesterday. Do you have Lou Saxton as one of the 
names, from Pittsburgh ? 

Sergeant Brown. There was a name listed, Mr. Chairman, as Lou, 
Pittsburgh, Pa. No address showing and no last name showing. 

Chairman Kefauver. Then do you have listed a Japloski who has 
been convicted in St. Louis? We have a record of him distributing- 
lewd literature, but he resides in Jacksonville, Fla. Is his name 

Sergeant Brown. What was the name again, Mr. Chairman? 

Chairman Kefauver. Japloski. 

Sergeatn Brown. T\^iat was the first name ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Stanley Japloski. 

Sergeant Brown. Mr. Chairman, I have a Stanley listed, Jackson- 
ville, Fla., no last name. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have his address ? 

Sergeant Brown. No; there is a notation, numerals is all that is 

Now, should I read the numerals ? There is no indication — it pre- 
sumably is a phone number, although there is no exchange listed, it is 
merely numerals. 


Mr. Chumbris. If you "will look further on that list you will find 
another reference to Jacksonville, Fla., that might indicate that name. 

Sergeant Brown (complying). Yes. On further observation I find 
a Stanley, no last name listed, in Jacksonville, Fla., on Washtonian 
Street. It is 3510 Washtonian Street. 

Chairman IvErAu%"ER. Proceed, ISIr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any reference to Anderson in Elgin, 111 ? 

Chairman Kefau^^er. He did not read Elgin. 

Mr. BoBo. Sergeant, while you are checking that also, would you 
see if you have one listed Eddie in New York City ? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. With no address given ? It is on the part of the list, I 
think. Sergeant, that does not have the addresses, and so forth, the 
bottom part of the list. 

Sergeant Brown. I see in the second group an Eddie listed just as 
that, no last name given. 

Mr. BoBO. Is a telephone number given ? 

Just keep the telephone number in executive session. 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. I presume that that is a phone number. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that the same number we had here a little 
while ago ? 

Sergeant Brown. I don't recall the other number. You mean in my 
testimony, Mr. Chairman ? 

Chairman Kefau\'er. No ; in somebody else's testunony. 

Sergeant Brown. Not to ni}^ knowledge. 

Mr. BoBO. Sergeant, do you have any suggestion or any comments 
you might want to make on pornographic literature ? 

You also confiscated from Mr. Stone at the time of his arrest a 
roadmap showing the route covered by him ? 

Sergeant Brown. Here is a roadmap that was taken by me from the 
automobile, or the glove compartment of his automobile at the time of 
his arrest [exhibiting]. 

Chairman Kefauver. Does he have his route marked where he had 
been going ? 

Sergeant Brown. Mr. Chairman, it has a route marked fi'om the 
city of New York to Philadelphia, to Harrisburg, Pa. ; Pittsburgh, 
Pa.: Akron, Ohio; Toledo, Ohio: Detroit, Mich.; Fort Wayne, Ind.; 
Indianapolis, Ind.; St. Louis, Mo.; Louisville, Ky. ; Charleston, 
W. Va.; into Richmond, Va. It terminates at Richmond, Va., the 
markings on the map. 

Mr. BoBO. Is this map over here [indicating], showing the interstate 
connections of Al Stone, alias Rrtbin. does that indicate the cities which 
3^ou have marked there, some of the cities? 

Sergeant Brown. I would say that it indicates a great many of them, 
from my observation from the chair here, counsellor. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it also a composite of the cities listed in his addi'ess 

Sergeant Brown. To a great extent : yes. 

Mr. Bobo. Thank you, Sergeant. That is all. 

Chairman Kefauver. Sergeant, you do have a big program in De- 
troit to stamp out this business, do you not? 

Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. I would like to bring 
out a couple of the highlights of that program that we have in Detroit. 

We have a great many active groups, PTA, the church, and fraternal 


organizations. We coopei-ate very closely with them, and they with us. 
We go out and make public speeches to these people. We try to keep 
in very close contact. We feel that in that way we get a firsthand 
viewpoint from the parents of what's going on. 

Now, last Tuesday night, Mr. Chairman, I spoke to a PTA group in 
Detroit that consisted of 850 parents. They were aware that I had 
been subpenaed here by this committee to delve into some of the 
problems of the juvenile delinquency question, and the problems of 
obscene literature; and they are, I understand, anxiously awaiting a 
report of your findings and the corrections that can be made. 

Now, we do feel in the State of Michigan that the statute covering 
obscenity is a very good, strong statute ; it is 750, section 343. Under 
this statute, as I mentioned previously, Mr. Chairman, I would like to 
point out again, on the first arrest and conviction it is a misdemeanor. 
The second arrest is treated as a high misdemeanor. 

Now, on an ordinary misdemeanor it is punishable by 90 days in the 
house of correction or $100 fine; the second offense is punishable by a 
year in the Detroit House of Correction or a $500 fine ; and the third 
offense is treated as a felony, and it is punishable by State prison. 

We have had very good success, we have had a great amount of 
cooperation from the prosecuting attorney's office, from all the judges 
in recorder's court. They are backing us 100 percent on this problem. 

We had one judge there, I had 3 cases before him in the last 6 
weeks, and that is first offenders. 

Chairman Kefauvek. Is that Judge George Edwards ? 

Sergeant Brown. No. George Edwards is in the probate court of 
juvenile, and a very, very capable judge by the way, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. I know him. 

Sergeant Brown. Judge Shimansky has a standing policy there 
that, upon conviction, it is automatically 60 days in the house of 
correction and a year's probation. 

We feel that that law has teeth in it, but we would also like to 

Chairman Kefauver. When was that law passed? 

Sergeant I^rown. That was amended in 19 — it was passed, I believe, 
in 1935, and I believe it was amended in 1953, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. Has the traffic in Detroit gone down since 
you had that law amended and you have been enforcing it more 
vigorously ? 

Sergeant Brown. We feel that the traffic has greatly decreased. 

Chairman Kefauver. Tell us a little more about the splendid inter- 
est and activity of the PTA men and women and civic clubs and others 
in Detroit, Sergeant Brown. 

Sergeant Brown. Well, as I mentioned before, these 

Chairman Kefauver. How many people are participating? 

Sergeant Brown. Well, it would be hard to say, but it would be 
a very, very great number of organizations, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. Each in their own neighborhood? 

Sergeant Brown. Each in their own neighborhood. 

They have a program — before I mention this, in answer to your 
question there, Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention that under 
this law in the State of Michigan — now, this is getting away from 

65263 — 55 10 


pornographj' just a little bit, but I think I would like to touch on it 
if it is permissible. 

These pocket-sized and these cheesecake books, cheesecake and girlie 
magazines, when these books come into the city of Detroit, we have 
such cooperation from the two large distributors that they volun- 
tarily submit each and every one of these pocket books to the censor 
bureau for screening. We have a staff of 13 men. They screen these 
books, and if they find obscene passages, or anything of a filthy nature, 
w^e immediately submit it to our legtij counsel, the prosecuting attor- 
ney of the county. He gives us a legal opinion, and if it is a viola- 
tion of the law he sends us a letter, 1 for our files and another 1 
for the distributor, that if distribution is made on that book in the 
city of Detroit or in the county of Wayne, that prosecution will result. 

Now, as a result of this action, we have withheld between four and 
five hundred separate titles of these pocket books in the city of Detroit 
in the last 5 years. Each one of these titles in the city of Detroit alone 
would enjoy a circulation of approximately five to ten thousand. 

Chairman Kefauver. Each one of these what? 

Sergeant Browx. Each one of these books, each title, each separate 
title would enjoy a circulation of from five to ten thousand in the city 
of Detroit alone. 

Chairman Kefaux^er. But they are not circulated ? 

Sergeant Brown, No, sir, 

Wlien the prosecuting attorney rules that they are in violation of the 
law, the distributor is notified, there is no distribution made in the 

Now, we had a test case just a year ago now on one of these pocket 
books in recorder's court, and we were sustained. There was a convic- 
tion obtained. 

Now, it is my understanding at the present time that this case is 
being appealed to the Michigan State Supreme Court. 

Chairman Kefauver, Sergeant Brown, then in our horror and crime 
comic-book hearing, we ran into a situation where some news dealers 
were forced to take a whole range of things in order to get the better 
magazines; they had to take some horror comics and they had to 
take some literature that is not so good, and that it was a pretty 
difficult position in which they were placed. They would lose their 
license if they did not take all those things, and yet they did not want 
to sell them on many occasions. 

However, your news dealers are cooperating and just turning them 
back ; is that it ? 

Sergeant Browx. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. I think you call that tie-in sales? 

Sergeant Browx. I believe that would be the term. 

Mr. Chujmbris. Sergeant, I believe you, or members of your staff, 
went to the city just northeast of Detroit last year and testified before 
a grand jury on some of these particular problems to clean up the 

Sergeant Browx, The city of Port Huron. Inspector Case was up 
there in an advisory capacity. 

Mr. Chumbris. I understand they have quite a progrom up there to 
clean up these pin-up magazines, like Eye; is that correct? 

Sergeant Browx. I can't testify too much about that program; I 
am not too familiar with the Port Huron program. 


Chairman KEFAin'ER, Sergeant Brown, we thank you very much 
for coming here. 

Sergeant Brown, Mr. Chairman, one more point. I would like to 
tell you at this time that, speaking for myself and the police depart- 
ment of the city of Detroit, and the citizens of the city of Detroit, we 
would like to see some sort of Federal legislation passed that would put 
teeth in tlie law to keep this smut from being distributed by any means, 
whether it is in an automobile or carried across the State lines, or by 
any means. That's what we are all in hope of. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is what all the people who are work- 
ing with you on this want done ? 

Sergeant Brown. That is what they w^ant done. 

Chairman Kefauver. You tell them that we appreciate their recom- 
mendation and their activity, and the report that we have from you. 

Sergeant Brown. Thank you very much. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bair, we aren't going to get to finish you 
before noon, but come around and let us have your testimony. We 
are going to adjourn in about 10 minutes. 

(Mr. Bair was sworn.) 


Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Bair, you are Mr. Robert R. Bair, B-a-i-r ? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct. 

Mr. BoBO. You are assistant United States attorney from the dis- 
trict of Maryland ? 

Mr Bair. That is right, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Baltimore, Md. ? How long have you been w^itli the 
United States attorney's office in Baltimore? 

Mr. Bair. Since September 1954. 

Mr. BoBO. And your duties in that office are to prepare and present 
cases ? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct, sir. Enforcing the laws of the Federal 

Mr. BoBO. Were you the person in the office of the United States 
attorney in Baltimore who prepared the case against Herman Solomon 
and Saul Norman Daymont ? 

Mr. Bair. I am. 

Mr. BoBO. Louis Passetti and Ruby Martin Tayfoia ? 

Mr. Bair. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. That was a case involving what, Mr. Bair ? 

Mr. Bair. That was a case involving the depositing with the Rail- 
way Express Agency for shipment in interstate commerce of certain 
obscene, lewd, and lascivious photographs. 

Chairman Kefau\tr. Mr. Bair, this map here on the left was made, 
I believe, from the evidence worked up and brought out by you in 
this case? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct. That evidence was available to us. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is a so-called "Soloday" operation ? 

Mr. Bair. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kep^auver. I want to say just as we close, as we recess for 
lunch, that I know of the security in this case, and I think this is one 


of the most important decisions enabling enforcement agencies and the 
courts to get at this problem that we have ever had in the field of inde- 
cent and pornographic literature. 

Many prosecutor all over the Nation are awaiting the outcome of the 
trial of this case that you have concluded, and it is a very important 
case. We want you to take some little time in describing the opera- 
tions, just what was involved in the case. 

You will continue with your testimony right after our recess for 
the lunch period. 

The subcommittee will stand in recess until 1 : 30. 

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, a luncheon recess w^as taken until 1 : 30 


Cliairman Kefau\T3R. We will resume Avith the testimony of Mr. 
Bair. All right, Mr. Bobo, proceed. 

Mr. Bono, The operations which we were discussing before the 
recess was the operation "Soloday" ? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct. The address was 3500 Harford Road, 
Baltimore, Md. 

Mr. BoBO. When did this case originate? 

Mr. Bair. The FBI in Baltimore received an anonymous letter 
about August 4, 1953, and it was from somebody out in San Francisco 
who stated that there were two men who were shipping large ship- 
ments of lewd photographs from Baltimore, after having been con- 
victed of the same offense out in Los Angeles. 

After that letter the FBI investigated tlie case, and conducted sur- 
veillance of the premises at Harford Road, and looked into the men 
who were going in and out of that building. 

Four persons were primarily involved. Plerman Solomon, William 
Daymont, Louis D. Passetti, and Ruby Martin Tayfoia. 

After a good deal of investigation in which the Railway Express 
Agency was cooperating with us, on December 14, 1953, the FBI was 
notified that a rather large shipment had been deposited with them, 
and agents went down there and initialed the packages contained in 
that shipment. 

Mr. BoBO. This photograph over here, was that the shipment that 
had been deposited Avith Railway Express? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct; that is the shipment of the 14th of 
December. That shipment consisted of 21 cartons destined for 14 
consignees in 7 cities all over the United States. 

The shipment was permitted to go through, and agents in various 
cities to which these packages were consigned, later picked them up 
and returned them to Baltimore. 

On the basis of that, evidence warrants were issued, and the four- 
named persons were arrested. 

Then on January 5, 1954, the Federal grand jury at Baltimore re- 
turned an 11-count indictment against Herman Solomon, William 
Daymont, Louis D. Passetti, and on Ruby Tayfoia, the indictment was 
based on section 14G2 of title 18 of the United States Code; and it 
charged them with knowingly depositing with the Railway Express 
Agency at Baltimore for shipment in interstate commerce lewd, las- 
civious, obscene, and filthy photographs. 


This 11-coiiiit indictment concerned only 17 of the cartons which 
were addressed to 11 consignees in 6 cities. 

The volume was rather large. It consisted of 7,330 sets of photo- 
graphs, and there were 12 photographs to each set; thus in all there 
were 87,960 photographs. 

These had a declared value with the Kail way Express Agency of 
almost $2,400. They were being consigned at about 35 cents a set. 
That was the cost to the retailer. 

The retail value, hov>^ever, was about $10,200, because I had 2 
men, 2 of the consignees come to testify at the trial, and they indicated 
that they received about $1.50 j^er set. 

The testimony at the tiial also revealed that these shipments were 
taking place on the average of about twice a week, and that the pro- 
duction was in the neighborhood of 3,000 sets per week. If you want 
to ap])ly that on an annual basis, that would be 156,000 sets', or 1,872,- 
000 photographs a year. 

On a weekly basis, assuming that they were able to manufacture 
and sell 3,000 sets a week, at 35 cents a set, the shipments out of Soloday 
would come to about $1,050 a week. It is difficult to ascertain how 
much of that $1,050 was profit to Soloday. They indicated that maybe 
22 cents of the 35 cents w^as the cost of production. I am inclined 
to think that is a little high, and I would say that closer to about half 
of the $1,000 was profit to Soloday. 

Turning to the market for these photographs, as you can see from 
the map, there were a great number of consignees located all over the 
United States — about 45 or 46 in number; but as to the consignees' 
involved in the prosecution in Baltimore, there were 11 — and if you 
wish me to, I will read those into the record. 

Mr. BoBO. If you would, please. 

Mr. Bair. Kay's Bookstore, 1374 East Ninth Street, Cleveland, Ohio, 
they received 500 sets of photographs. 

City Hall News & Novelty, 133 Lyons Street NW., Grand Rapids, 
Mich., they received 320 sets. 

The Gallery, 347 North Clark Street, Chicago, 111., they received 
160 sets. 

Frank's Magic, at 1220 K Street, Sacramento, Calif., received 725 

The Satisfactory Distributing Co., 501 M. & M. Building, Houston, 
Tex,, received 3 cartons containing 1,700 sets. 

Capital News, 1709 East Ninth Street, Cleveland, Ohio, received 
1,070 sets. 

William Shatsky, 330 South Olive Street, Los Angeles, Calif., re- 
ceived 925 sets. 

Joyland Novelty Co., 421 South Main Street, Los Angeles, Calif., 
received 300 sets. 

Tom Libman, 331 South Main Street, Los Angeles, Calif., received 
180 sets. 

The G. & U. Newstand, 516 South ^Nlain Street, Los Angeles, Calif., 
received 275 sets. 

E. Smith, 536 South Main Street, Los Angeles, Calif., received 1,175 

Mr. BoBO. These you have just read indicate only those in which 
you had in the 11 -count indictment that were consigned against 
Solodav ? 


Mr. Bair, Those were the names of the consignees, 11 to be exact^ 
named in the 11 -count indictment in this particuhir case. 

Mr. BoBO. In this particular case there were additional consignees 
which you are not at liberty to reveal at the present time ? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct. 

Mr. BoBO. Numbering some 46 altogether? 

Mr. Bair. There are about 46 names that we have in our file to 
which these photographs or similar ones were consigned. 

Mr. BoBO. In addition to these did you investigate and did the trial 
bring out the fact that Solomon or Daymont not only did a Railway 
Express business but also made frequent trips by automobile? 

Mr. Bair. That is true. There is no question but that a great part 
of this business was not done by Railway Express. If the figure of 
3,000 photographs a week is a correct figure, and that was given ta 
us by Louis D. Passetti, a much smaller number than 3,000 per week 
was sent by Railway Express. We know about 27,000 sets of photo- 
graphs were sent by Railway Express during the 5 months period of 
July to November 1953. At the same time at the rate of 3,000 sets a 
week, you w^oukl have about 60,000 rather than 27,000 sets produced 
during that period. 

Mr. BoBO. Did the trial bring out, or did the preliminary investi- 
gation, the amount of film used by this operation — raw film? 

Mr. Bair. Yes ; it did. 

Mr. BoBo. I think I should correct that — processing paper. 

Mr. Bair. Records which were obtained by a search warrant indi- 
cated that between July 10 and November 23, 1953, Soloday pur- 
chased over $2,000 of photographic paper from Rochester, N. Y., and 
over $7,600 worth of photogi'aphic paper from a company in New 
York City. 

Mr. BoBO. Did any of the pictures confiscated portray any minors 
in these lewd photographs? 

Mr. Bair. No ; they did not. 

Mr. BoBo. "^^Hien this material was shipped out was it deposited 
with the Railway- Express Co., or did they go by Soloday and pick 
up the material? 

Mr. Bair. As regards this particular shipment, I believe it wa& 
brought to the Railway Express Agency by automobile. 

Mr. BoBO. You mentioned the names of Herman Solomon and 
William Daymont. Was this a partnership operation ? 

Mr. Bair. I might give you some background information about 
those two, as well as Avhat we know about Passetti and Tayfoia. 

Of those four people, Herman Solomon and William Daymont were 
primarily responsible for the business and the success of Soloday, 
which is obviously a combination of the two names, Solomon and 

Solomon was the photographer. He had an apartment in New 
York City at 224 West 49th Street, where he also had a studio. There 
he took photographs of various models. 

He then delivered the negatives to William Daymont at 35 Harford 
Road, in Baltimore, where they were developed, and where the photo- 
graphs were printed from the negatives. 

Louis D. Passetti was employed by Solomon at about $65 a week to 
help in packaging the photographs. 


Kuby Martin Tayfoia assisted William Daymont in Baltimore in 
the printing of the photographs. Because of her small connection 
with the matter, the indictment against her was dismissed, and only 
the three men were tried. 

Wliat we know about Solomon and Daymont, we know primarily 
from the mouths of Passetti and Tayfoia. Mr. Passetti met Solomon 
in San Francisco in 1949, and was employed by him that year to 
package photographs. While he was in the hospital out there he was 
advised that the police had raided the place of business in San Fran- 
cisco, and that was the last time he saw Solomon until September 
1953, when he again began working for Soloday. 

Miss Tayfoia was about IT years of age when she first met Solomon 
and Daymont in Hollywood, Calif., in about January of 1952. She 
went to work for them there as a model, and after a month or two of 
posing she worked for them as a printer of photographs. 

Just a few months prior to that, in October of 1951, both Solomon 
and Daymont were arrested by the Los Angeles Police Department 
on a charge of lewd photographs, and Solomon received in all 60 
days suspended sentence, and a total of $200 in fines. 

Daymont at that time received 1 year's probation, and a total of 
$150 in fines. 

In May of 1952, while within the probationary period of Daymont, 
the business of "Soloday" moved from Santa Monica, Calif., to the 
Harford Eoad address. We know at that time, from September of 
1952 until they were arrested in December 1953, they operated that 
business in Baltimore. 

Solomon would go to New York about 4 days a week. He would 
then drive to Baltimore and remain in Baltimore about 3 days a 
week, conducting this business. 

Daymont, I believe, resided solely in Baltimore. 

As to the question of obtaining models, they would obtain them 
from night clubs and burlesque houses, et cetera. They would offer 
them something like $10 for a couple of hours' work in posing; and 
as I say, a good bit of that was done in a photographic studio in 
New York by Solomon. 

However, a number of their consignees over the country, one in 
Cleveland in particular — we know they offered to get them models, 
and Daymont and Solomon would go out to these various places and 
photograph other models in studios in these various cities. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know how those negatives would be forwarded 
into Baltimore? 

Mr. Bair. I have no Avay of knowing that ; no sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Go right ahead. 

Mr. Bair. Going to the trial which took place in Baltimore, Solo- 
mon, Daymont, and Passetti were tried on this 11-count indictment 
on April 25, 1955, before Judge W. Calvin Chestnut. The jury was an 
all-male jury. However, they returned a verdict of guilty; and 
Solomon was sentenced to 90 days in jail, and $1,000 fine. 

Daymont was sentenced to 90 days in jail, and $1,000 fine. 

Passetti was fined $500. 

The issue of the depositing for interstate shipment was stipulated 
out of the case by counsel, so that the only issue at that trial was the 
issue of obscenity. 


That brings me to the type of photographs involved in this case. 
It was not pornographic ,per se. It was more or less borderline 
photographs, borderlining between the art type of photograph, or the 
stripping nude type of photograph. There were three types in all. 

They were in sets of 12 photographs each. The girls were posed 
in varying stages of undress in one type. You might call it a strip- 
ping nude, but it was not strictly that inasmuch as there was not a 
complete nude in the whole group. They were dressed very cleverly 
by using long stockings and garters and black lingerie, black gloves, 
and black boots, and so forth. I don't think you could strictly call 
it an artistic stripping nude. 

Mr. BoBO. Most of these portrayed long black leather gloves, and 
long black boots and high heels ? 

Mr. Bair. Yes; I would describe it as that. I wish to repeat that 
it was not pornographic. There were no suggestive poses involved. 

There was another type which we might refer to as a wdiip or a 
flagellation type, in which a woman would have a fairly serious, stern 
look on her face, and she would be holding a whip. 

There was a third type which we might refer to as a bondage picture 
in which the woman was jiosed with her hands and feet tied with 
ropes, and in many cases lying on a bed, with a very frightened look 
on her face. 

The problem before me was to see Avhether these pictures fitted the 
tests of obscenity which had been laid down in prior Federal court 
decisions; and the tests that we had to go by were whether these 
photographs were calculated to corrupt the morals of those into 
whose hands they might fall, by exciting lewd thoughts or suggesting 
sensual desires. 

There were two appraches to the problem. One you might call a 
negative approach, and the other a positive approach. 

As a negative approach, I had an expert from the Museum of Art 
come in to testify that they had little, if any, artistic merit to them ; 
that they did not constitute art, in that any little artistic merit which 
they had was completely outweighed by emphasis on sex. 

There were a number of asi)ects to the positive approach to the 
problem. One was, of course, the huge volume, the huge market for 
these photographs. The second was their sole purpose, which was 
a pandering to the lascivious curiosity in men — just a strict commer- 
cialization of sex, and sex alone. That was emphatically put across 
to the jnry. 

The third approach was to show the clever and skillful method to 
commercialize this kind of thing. They didn't just submit one photo- 
graph. They submitted 12 in a series; and I think you can safely 
say that the cumulative effect of the 12 photograplis was greater than 
the sum of just looking at 12 photograplis separately. 

Another very clever method used by them is the use of partial 
clothing. There was not a complete nude in all the 87,000 photo- 
graphs. There was always just a little bit of clothing in the form 
of garters or long stockings, or black lingerie. Havelock Ellis and 
many others are well agreed that actually nudity is more chaste than 
partial clothing, and partial clothing is a much easier way — the use 
of partial clothing is a much easier way to incite sensuality in man 
than a complete nude. 


That repi'eseiited a very clever observation upon the part of these 
men, and they ntihzed it extensively. 

Another method was the use of fetishes. The use of long black 
gloves and long boots, or high heeled shoes, the use of stockings and 
garters, the use of whips and ropes. 

Necessarily these things might not be pi'ima facie evidence to a 
jury; and so I had to bring in a psychiatrist to explain some of the 
symbols. I brought in Dr. Jacob Harry Conn, of Utah Place, in 
Baltimore, and he testihed tliat pictures such as these represented a 
very skillful invitation and solicitation to persons who are in need 
of a substitute for a sexual experience. 

From the huge market in these photographs I think we can infer 
that there are quite a few people in such a need. It represents the 
need of people who through weakness of character, through age, and 
lack of maturity, or through social and moral inhibitions are unable 
to find a normal outlet for the sexual urges. 

In some cases the need is a pathological need, and it is represented 
by perverts, by impotents, borderline homosexuals. The wdiipping 
pictures and the flagellations, the bondage pictures, they are all di- 
rected to that type of person. 

At the same time Dr. Conn pointed out an analogy between the 
impotent type of person who had this need and the adolescent who 
was just approaching the awakening of that type of life when he 
was awakening to sexual needs. It was clear to him that such a 
photograph would represent an outlet for a vicarious sexual experi- 

Mr. BoBO. In othei- words, actually what it would do, if it was a 
juvenile and an innnature person, it is liable to cause him to take up 
this partciular fetish — whipping, bondage, as an outlet for sex? 

Mr. Bair. That is what Dr. Conn testified to. 

Mr. BoBo. Mr. Bair, what was the end result of the case? 

Mr. Bair. As I said, the only issue was that of obscenity, and the 
jury brought back a verdict of guilt ; and the three men were sentenced 
as I have stated previously. 

Mr. BoBo. Would a clearer definition in the statute 1461, 1462, 1463, 
1464 of what constitutes pornographic literature, have assisted in this 
case in obtaining a stronger conviction for these individuals ? 

Mr. Bair. I don't think so. I would hesitate to legislate further 
as to the definition of obscenity. 

I believe the courts over a long period of time have established 
certain standards which I might say are flexible in that the present 
test is the standard of the community here now; and as you. know, 
these standards do change. 

If you look back to the Greco-Koman era, or the Victorian era, these 
standards do change. 

The present test allows you to look at the standards of the com- 
munity here and now, and to decide whether this material is calculated 
to corrupt the morals by exciting lewd thoughts and sensual desires ; 
and I think the test at the present time is adequate. To legislate fur- 
ther on it may restrict courts too much in the future. 

Mr. BoBO. Prosecution and investigation of this case required ap- 
proximately what — 2 years ? 

Mr. Bair. The investigation required almost 5 months. 

Mr. BoBO. How long was it in the courts ? 


Mr. Bair. Well, the trial lasted a little over a day. 

Chairman Kefauver. ]Mr. Martin, do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Martin. Mr. Bair, I believe you told us the cost to Solomon was 
22 cents. I believe 22 cents was the price spread between the cost anc 
what he was selling for. Wasn't the cost 13 cents ? 

Mr. Bair. Well, at the trial they maintained that the cost was 2S 
■cents. However, there is evidence in their books and records that th( 
cost was 13 cents. It is a little hard to ascertain exactly what it cost. 
I would estimate they made about one-half of the 35 cents as profit. 

Chairman Kefauver. When was the final judgment rendered in this 
case ? 

Mr. Bair. On April 26, 1955. 

Chairman Kefau^^er. I think there have been some other indict 
ments brought. A good many cases were waiting on the outcome o1 
this one ? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. All of these consignees" 
are subject to prosecution under 1462, and a great many of the districts 
had been awaiting the outcome of this case prior to authorization of 

Chairman Kefauver. I was interested in what happened to this girl, 
Kuby Tayf oia. She was in California ? 

Mr. Bair. That is where she first met Mr. Solomon, out in Holly- 

Chairman Kefauver. At that time she was just a teen-ager ? 

Mr. Bair. Just 17 years old. 

Chairman Kefauver. And they brought her back to Baltimore in 
tne business there ? 

Mr. Bair. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. What did these fellows do before they got into 
this business — do you know ? 

Mr. Bair. We have no way of knowing that. Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. Doesn't Solomon have some record ? 

Mr. Bair. In 1951 he was convicted in Los Angeles on the same type 
of charge. At that time he received 60 days suspended sentence and 
$200 fine. We know that he was also printing these photographs as 
early as 1919, but what he was doing prior to that we don't know. 

Chairman Kefauver. After leaving Los Angeles he came to Balti- 
more ? 

Mr. Bair. Yes; he came to Baltimore in May of 1952. 

Chairman Kefau\ter. Didn't some of the girls who posed as models 
make some claims about not knowing what they were doing? 

Mr. Bair. Well, there is a little indication in the investigation that 
Avhile they were posing for supposedly art pictures, there were two 
cameras focused on them — one that they didn't know about. 

Chairman Kefau\'er. And they claim they didn't sign the release 
for some of the pictures, but they were used notwithstanding, or they 
didn't know what they were signing when they signed the release ? 

Mr. Bair. I do not know, sir. 

Chairman Kefauv'er. Thank you very much, Mr. Bair. 

We appreciate the hard work that you have put in on this case, and 
the fact that you have stayed with it so long, and finally won your 

As I said before, I think it had a very salutory effect throughout 
the Nation. 


We will have about a 3-minute recess. 

(A short recess was taken.) 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Rubin. 

(Abraham Rubin was sworn.) 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 


Mr. BoBo. You have counsel here with you ? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Will you identify yourself? 

Mr. Weiss. Daniel S. Weiss, 15 East 40th Street. 

Mr. BoBO. Will you state your full name and present address ? 

Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin, 1639 41st Street, Brooklyn. 

Chairman Kefauver. I didn't understand that. 

Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you also at other times been known by a different 
name ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provision of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute now. Do you plead immunity 
under the fifth amendment? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. As we go along I will pass on whether the 
witness should be ordered to answer the question. I will have to order 
vou to answer that question, Mr. Rubin. If you refuse to answer, 
just sav, "I refuse to answer." 

Mr. IRubin. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman Kefauvtsr. But under the rules and for the record, ques- 
tions are asked, and if you refuse to answer under the fifth amend- 
ment, if I think it is a proper question I will have to ask you to answer. 
You either answer or refuse to answer. 

Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you furnished this subcommittee all the available 
records which were requested in the subpcna issued to you ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity of the provision 
of tlie fiftli amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer, Mr. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under tlie immunity provision of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Mr. Bobo. In 1950 you had a reported income of $7,796.82; in 
1951, $8,635.35 ; in 1952," $8,688.76 ; in 1953, $8,099.94 ; in 1954, $7,919.44. 

On what basis did you arrive at these figures without producing 
records to show your income for those years ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provision of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer the ques- 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Weiss, to save time and with full under- 
standing, if in answer to a question if he wishes to plead the fifth 


amendment, it will be nnderstood and we let the record make that 
clear, that if he says "I refuse to answer," we will understand that 
that is on the basis of the immunity provisions of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Weiss. That will save time. 

Chairman Kefattver. Shall we also let the record show that I have 
ordered him to answer after he says "I refuse," unless it is some ques- 
tion that I feel should not be asked him, in which event I will so desig- 
nate, so that will save a lot of time. 

Mr. Weiss. I agree with you. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well. Let me ask this question. Would 
the witness give us any statement, or does counsel wish to give us any 
statement just what offense, or what law, the prosecution of which 
the witness may be afraid that he would be subject to in the event he 
answered ? 

Mr. Weiss. His answer will be the same, Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. His answer will be the same ? 

Mr. Weiss. Yes. 

Mr. Martin. Is it a State or Federal offense? 

Mr. Weiss. His answ-er will be the same. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, ask such pertinent questions as 
you wish to bring out. 

Mr. BoBO. What kind of business are you engaged in, Mr. Eubin? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. I cannot understand you. 

Chairman Kefaus^er. He said he refused to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Are you the same Abraham Rubin that was arrested in 
Detroit, Mich., in 1953 ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Is that a photograph that was taken of you at that time? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefau^^r. Let the photograph be filed as an exhibit. 

Mr. BoBO. Were the charges against you at that time possession of 
obscene literature ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Hand him his w^hole record here. There is no 
use going over each one. This is the record that has been introduced 
in evidence as an exhibit here. 

The question is: Is the photograpli on top of it, and is this your 
record of arrests, convictions, or acquittal ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let it be filed. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Rubin, isn't is true you are considered one of the 
major suppliers of pornography in the United States? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bono. In the business in wliich you are engaged in, in how many 
States do you operate ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let this chart be inserted here. 

Mr. BoBO. In the business in which you are engaged in, have you 
ever operated in the State of New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, 
Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, and New Jersey? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any contacts with any persons in any 
of those States ? 

ujco ^!^ 






Li. Zo. 





Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. Have you ever been arrested before ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. How long have you been associated either directly or 
indirectly with Eddie Mishkin in the pornography traffic? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Does he know Mr. Miskin ? 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Mishkin ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. "What is your citizenship, Mr. Rubin ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. How many children do you have ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. What is your present home address ? 

Mr. Rubin. I already gave it to you. 

Mr. Bobo. A\liat is your present telephone number ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is your refusal to answer upon fear of bodily 
harm or reprisal ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Do you know Frank Lano, of Chicago, 111. ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done business with Mr. Lano in Chicago, 
111., or in New York City? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Rubin, is it true that your business in pornography 
amounts to approximately $100,000 a year? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. How long have you known Mr. Lou Shomer? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done business with Mr. Shomer? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. How long have you been doing business with Mr. Arthur 
Herman Sobel ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. The proper question would be does he laiow 
Mr. Sobel, and does he do any business with him. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Sobel ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you knov7 Mr. Rotto ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Have you ever done any business with him ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. Do you know INIr. Stanley Jablonski ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Have you ever done any business with Mr. Jablonski? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Do you know Mr. Morris Lowenstein? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Have you ever done any business with him in Flint, 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 



Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Saxton, of Pittsburgh, Pa. ? 

Mr. KuBiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. How long have you known Mr. Saxton? 

Mr. EuBiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Isn't it true that you have made numerous large deliv- 
eries of pornographic material to the Bizon Co., in Detroit, Mich.? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr BoBO. Isn't it true that you were the original printer and 
distributor for the "Fuller Brush Man" series of obscene comics? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. For how many years did you publish these comics < 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr Bobo. Can you explain how it is that your name and telephone 
number has been found in the address books of large dealers arrested 
over the country— dealers of pornography throughout the United 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. ,. -rr ^ mo 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. E. Red Florence of Houston, iex.« 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. . -, T»r -r^i o 

Mr. Bobo. How long have you done business with Mr. I lorence' 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. „ ,-cr i • . -r^ ^ o 

Mr. Bobo. Do you know Mr. George Fodor, of Washington, D.L.i 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. . i -.^r -r- j o 

Mr. BoBO. For how long have you done business with Mr. J^ odor i 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman KErAU\T2R. The witness refuses to answer. 

Mr Rubin, in the scant records which you gave to the subcommittee, 
is a copy of a statement of expenses and other things prepared by 
Mr. Marvin R. Fullmer. 

My question is : Will you identify this, or are you willing to identity 


Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefau\'er. We will let the record be put m evidence as 
o-oing with the questions which you refuse to answer. 

(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 13," and is as follows :) 

Review of Income Tax and Bank Statements, 1950 Through 1954 

(By Marvin R. Fullmer) 

Name : Abe Rubin, alias Al Stone. 

Occupation: Wholesale trade, jewelry salesman. 

Income tax 

commission merchant. 



$9, 796, 82 
8, 635. 35 
8, 688. 76 
8, 099. 94 
7, 919. 44 

Tax paid 

1, 332. 06 


Business figures 

Total receipts 

Cost of mdse 

1951 . 

$13, 663. 00 
16, 429. 25 
16, 820. 00 

.$3, 996 
6 348 


1953 - - 


6 145 

How are these figures derived? 

Receipts ? 

Bill of sale, etc.? 

Wliat is your basis of these figures? 

Savings accounts 

Greater New York Savings Bank : Present balance, $8,314.40. Opened Decem- 
ber 7, 1945, Mary Gordon, in trust for Abraham Rubin. Opening deposit, $500. 

Bay Ridge Savings Bank : Present balance, $5,362.37. Opened May 23, 1950, 
Mary G. Rubin or Abraham Rubin. Opening deposit, $350. 

Checking account 

The Public National Bank and Trust Co. of New York. Opened account Octo- 
ber 29, 1951, $1,500 deposit. 

Total deposits 

1951 $6, 748 

1952 9, 012 

1953 5, 275 

1954 _ 6, 175 

195Jf expenditures taken from canceled checks 

Auto, 5 months at $75 $375 

Auto, 5 months at $106 530 

12 house payments at $50 600 

Income tax 1, 500 

Martin Harris (insurance) SOO 

Standard Oil (car expenses) 250 

Net savings, deposits 4,072 

City tax, etc ^175 

Telephone ^ 75 

Consolidated Edison ^ 120 

Total 8, 494 

1 Approximate, 

Reported income, $7,919. • 

July 28, 1954, $3,102.32 deposit by check (payor unknown) in savings account, 
Bay Ridge Savings Bank. 

Safe-deposit box : The Public National Bank and Trust Companv of New York, 
vault. No. 332. In whose name? 

Any other boxes, etc.? 

Chairman IvEFAtn^ER. One part of it is that you have a safety- 
deposit box, No. 332, at the Public National Bank and Trust Co. of 
New York. Is that in your name, or not ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well, Mr. Rubin. Mr. Rubin, I will 
have to ask you to remain under continuing subpena in the event we 
want to call you back. In that event, you or Mr. Weiss will be 

I believe that is all for the time being. 

Call the next witness, gentlemen. 

Mr. BoBo. Mr. Andy Bruckner. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Bruckner here ? 


(There was no response.) 
Mr. BoBO. Mr. George Fodor. 


(George Fodor was sworn.) 

Chairman Ivefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. Proceed. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Fodor, will you give us your full name and address? 

Mr. FoDOR. George Fodor, 3710 39th Street North, St. Petersburg. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you also maintain a residence in Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. FoDOR. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you lived in Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. Fodor. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. BoBO. When did you leave that city ? 

Mr. Fodor. Three and a half months ago. 

Mr. BoBO. How are you employed, Mr. Fodor? 

Mr. FoDOR. What? 

Mr. BoBO. How are you employed, what is your job? 

Mr. FoDOR. Working in a little store. 

Mr. BoBO. Where were you born, Mr. Fodor? 

Mr. FoDOR. Warshaw, Kumania. 

Mr. BoBO. Are you presently a United States citizen ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Wlien you lived in Washington, D. C, how were you 
employed, Mr. Fodor ? 

Mr. Fodor. In the beginning or the end, or when ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Fodor, I cannot quite hear you. You are 
a big man ; speak up. , -, , t, 

Mr. FoDOR. I will try, sir. Wlien I started working, I worked at the 
J. Warehouse in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Fodor, have ever dealt in pornographic material? 

Mr. Fodor. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Bobo. For how long a period did you sell pornography ? 

Mr. Fodor. Around 5 or 6 months. 

Mr, BoBO. And where was this sold ? 

]\Ir. Fodor. In Washington, D. C. 

Chairman Kefauver. When was this, Mr. Fodor; when were you m 
the business in Washington ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I try to hgure it out. I am very weak with the numbers 
memory. I guess in 3 years ago, or 21/2 years ago. 

Mr. BoBO. Three years ago? 

Mr. Fodor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bobo. What were the types of pornographic material handled 
by you, Mr. Fodor? 

Mr. Fodor. I had films, comic books, and pictures. 

Mr. BoBO. And from whom did you receive this pornogi^aphic 

IllcltGl^lcll . 

Mr. FoDOR. Most of it I received from Mr. Dorfman. 

Chairman Kefauver. I couldn't understand that. 

Mr. Fodor. Most of it received from Mr. Dorfman, from Baltimore. 

Mr. Bobo. D-o-r-f-m-a-n? 

Mr. Fodor. Yes. 

Mr. Bobo. Where did Mr. Dorfman live? 

Mr. FoDOR. In Baltimore some place. I don't know the address. 


Chairman Kefauver. Wliat is his first name ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Ike. 

Chairman Kefauver. Ike Dorfman? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Isadore Dorfman, is it not? 

Mr. Fodor. I don't know the name. Only I know Ike. 

Mr. BoBO. Is Mr. Dorfman the only contact you had for porno- 
graphic material? 

Mr. Fodor. No, sir. I had from Jacksonville, too. 

Mr. BoBO. You got it from whom ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Jacksonville. 

Mr. BoBO. Jacksonville, Fla. ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. From whom did you buy it there, Stanley Jablonski? 

Mr. FoDOR. I don't know the name, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. How would you buy it from the person in Jackson- 
ville, Fla.? 

Mr. FoDOR. They brought to me. I brought in only once. 

INIr. BoBO. They brought it to you? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. In Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Right, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. How was the delivery made ? 

Mr. Fodor. He brought me with his car. 

Mr. BoBO. He brought you his card? 

Mr. FoDOR. His car, his car. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Edward Mishkin, M-i-s-h-k-i-n ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I don't recognize his name, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know anyone that goes by the name of Eddie, 
E-d-d-i-e, of New York City? 

Mr. FoDOR. No ; if I know. If I see, maybe I know. But I don't 

Mr. BoBO. Did you know Mr. Al Stone, or Mr. Abraham Rubin, of 
New York City? 

Mr. FoDOR. I saw just now here. That's all I know. 

Mr. BoBO. That is the first time you have ever seen him ? 

Mr. Fodor. Yes. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you seen Mr. Eddie Mishkin in the room today? 

Mr. Fodor. Who? 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Eddie Mishkin. 

(Mr. Fodor shakes head in negative.) 

Mr. Bono. Did you say you could recognize him if you saw him? 

Mr. Fodor. 1 will try (looking through courtroom). 

]Mr. Martin. Is Mr. Mishkin in the room? 

Mr. Weiss. I am his attorney. He is not coming up. 

Mr. Martin. He is supposed to be in the courtroom here. 

Mr. Weiss. He is here. 

Chairman Kefauver. Sit down, Mr. Fodor. 

Mr. BoBO. Who were your customers for pornographic material, 
Mr. Fodor? 

Mr. FoDOR. I had Mr. Chucoski. 

Mr. BoBO. Is he the only person to whoni you ever sold ? 



Mr. FoDOR. No. I will tell you. Mr. Chucoski, Mr. King, Mr. 

Bannister. -r^ ,-, o 

Mr. BoBO. Wliere did they live, in Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes; all Washington, D. C. Mr. Dockett. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever make any trips to New York to purchase 
pornographic material ? 

Mr. FoDOR. No. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know a Mr. Lou Shomer, S-h-o-m-e-r ? 

Mr. FoDOR. If I see him, maybe I know him. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever buy any materials from this man ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I don't think so'l did. I don't remember. 

Mr. BoBO. Where would you make your purchases from Mr. Ike 
Dorfman, of Baltimore, Md. ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I did ; sometime he brought to me in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. BoBO. What was the price that you paid for the materials you 
bought from him. 

Mr. FoDOR. Six cents I paid for the comic book. 

Mr. BoBO. Six cents you paid for the comic book ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir 

Mr. BoBO. How^ much did you sell them for ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Ten cents. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you deal in any other type of materials ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes; films. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever know where the films came from which 
you handled? 

Mr. FoDOR. No ; I don't. 

Mr. BoBO. You never manufactured or made any films yourself? 

Mr. FoDOR. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you rent a fihn to Mr. Philip Stone of Washington, 

Mr. FoDOR. Who? 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Phil Stone, of Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I don't think so I ever heard that name. I heard men- 
tion this morning, I never give it up. I never sold, I never sold this 
Mr. Stone. 

Mr. BoBO. Was the film that was confiscated at the Don Pallini 
Dance Studio in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. FoDOR. What? 

Mr. BoBO. Was the film that was confiscated taken by Inspector 
Blick of Washington from the Don Pallini Dance Studio your film ? 

Mr. FoDOR. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. You had not operated that film ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I have no idea where is this dance studio, and I have no 
i^ea wliat was there, and I have no idea who is this man. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you have a route serving approximately 300 cus- 
tomers for pornographic material ? 

Mr. FoDOR. No, sir. Four. 

Mr. BoBO. Four customers? 

Mr. FoDOR. That's right. 

Mr. BoBO. What other type of business were you engaged in while 
you were selling pornography ? 

Mr. FoDOR. No other venture. I had three 


Mr. BoBO. Did you sell school supplies to schools and drugstores ? 

Mr. FoDOR. That's right. That is where I have 300 customers where 
I sold this ; that's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. You had 300 customers for your school sup- 
plies ? 

Mr. FoDOR. That's right, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who were your four customers for pornog- 
raphy ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Four. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who were they ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I just told you. Mr. Dockett, Mr. King, Mr. Chucoski, 
and Mr. Bannister. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know their addresses ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I did know. At that time I told to the inspector, and 
also to the FBI. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you not have $30,000 worth of school supplies m your 
basement at the time of your arrest ? 

Mr. FoDOR. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. What was the value you placed upon your stock? 

Mr. FoDOR. Six or seven thousand. 

Mr. BoBO. Six or seven — what ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Thousand. 

Mr. BoBo. Six or seven thousand dollars ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Between six and seven ; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you remember just when you were in 
business, Mr. Fodor ? 

Mr. Fodor. I guess three, three and a half years ago. 

Chairman Kefauver. Wliat are you doing in Jacksonville now ? 

Mr. Fodor. I never was in Jacksonville, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. I mean in St. Petersburg? 

Mr. Fodor. I try to do the same business what 1 had in Washmgton, 
D, c. — school supplies and notions and toys. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Bobo? 

Mr. BoBO. Did you have a total sales of $50,613 in 1954 ? 

Mr. Fodor. In this paper, the income tax ; yes. 

Mr. Bono. Was all that derived from your business ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. School supply salesman ? 

Mr. FoDOR. Correct. 

Mr. BoBo. Of your $50,000 business in 1954, how much tax did you 
pay to the Government ? 

Mr. FoDOR. I don't remember. You have the paper there. 

Mr. BoBO. How much of this $50,613 represented pornographic 

Mr. Fodor. Nothing. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Fodor, I believe those are all the ques- 
tions we have. Stay in the court room for a while this afternoon? 

Mr. Fodor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Eddie Mishkin. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, I don't think you have been 
sworn, have you? 

Mr. Mishkin. No, sir. 



(Eddie Mishkin was sworn.) ,.-,,•.. n a 

Chairman Kefauver. Let us get Mr. Mishkm s full name and 

fi rlcli*BSS 

Mr BoBo. Will you give us your full name and address? 

Mr. Mishkin. Edward Mishkin, 53 Algonquin Road, Yonkers, N. Y. 

Chairman KEFAU^^cR. I didn't understand the road. 

Mr. MisHKiK. Algonquin Road. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. ^^^at are your businesses, Mr. Mishkm ? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions ot 
Ihe fifth amendment to the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. The chairman directs you to answer. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. . , , . 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Weiss, can we have an agreement that 
in his refusal to answer, when he says "I refuse to answer, that it 
will be understood that it is under the immunity provision of the 
fifth amendment? 

Mr. Weiss. Certainly. . . -, ^ 

Chairman Kefauver. And that after having refused to answer, 
that he is then directed to answer by the chairman. 

ATr AVeiss Yes sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed to the pertinent questions, Mr Bobo. 

Mr BoBo ISIr Mishkin, is it not true that you own the Times Square 
Book" Bazaar, the Little Book Exchange, and the Kiiio;sley Book 
Store, located in the Times Square area of New York City? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. • i • j j? 

Mr. Bobo. Is it not true that part of your income is derived from 
the sales of pornographic material ? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that your business amounts to approxi- 
mately $1,500,000 a year? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you not formerly operate the Harmony Book Store 
of New York City? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Wasn't the Harmony Book Store, or is it not true that the 
Harmony Book Store was raided by the northern district attorney 
and over $50,000 of pornographic material seized? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. From whom did you receive the material that was con- 
fiscated in this rade? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Confiscated in this raid were 2,600 volumes of lights ot 
Horrow. From whom did you receive these books ? 
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman IvEFAmT.R. Mr. Mishkin, what business are you in? 
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Are you in any ligitimate business? 
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 
Chairman Kefau\^r. Where were you born ? 
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 


Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that you employed one Eugene Maletta to 
print copies of Nights of Horrow for you ? 

Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you furnish the plates to Eugene Maletta ? 

Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you furnish the money to Mr. Maletta to set up his 
printing shop? 

Mr. MiSHKix. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. How long have you done business with Mr. Eugene 
Maletta ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever give Mr. Maletta a check in payment for the 
work he did for you? 

Mr. MiSHKTN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you pay him in cash ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. What is the value in dollars of the pornographic material 
you have imported from foreign sources ? 

Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you import any pornographic material from foreign 
sources ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. Have you ever made any buys from sources in Europe ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bono. How much obscene material have you sold to Joe Carroll 
and Mr. Pellegrino, of New York City, during the past 2 years ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. What types of material did you sell ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever stolen any material from other pornog- 
raphy dealers, copied what you wanted from it, and reproduced it for 
your own use ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any police record ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. Do you have a man working for you by the name of Harry 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Is this same Harry Revo that was arrested in Birming- 
ham, Ala., with a load of pornographic material ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you not furnish Mr. Harry Revo and Johnny Melvin 
with this load of pornographic material ? 

Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Arthur Herman Sobel ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. How much ])ornographic material have you sold Mr. 
Sobel during the past 5 years ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Saxton, of Philadelphia? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. 1 refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. And Pittsburgh, Pa. ? 

How much business have you done with Mr. Saxton? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 


Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Al Stone, alias Abraham Kubin? 
Mr. MiSHKiN. i refuse to answer. ,^0. v at 

Mr. BoBO. For how long have you known Mr. btone, alias Mr. 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. ^ • i . at 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever sold any pornographic material to Mr. 
Stone, alias Kubin ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Morris GiUman ? 
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business ot any type witli Mr. 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever sold any pornographic material on credit ? 
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Shomer, S-h-o-m-e-r i 
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. ,^01 

I^Ir. BoBO. Have you ever dealt with or lent money to Mr. bhomer? 
Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer. ^ 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any interest in the Times bquare Book 
Bazaar ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 
Mr. BoBO. In the Little Book Exchange? 
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer. 
Mr. BoBO. In the Kingsley Book Store? 
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you have any interest in any other business m New 
York City? 

Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer. 
Chairman Kefauver. Any other questions, Mr. Bobo ? 
■ We are not getting anywhere here. How old are you, Mr. Mishkm ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman KEFAU^^2R. Are you married— do you have a family ? 

Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, I will direct that you remain 
under subpena subject to the further call by this committee upon 
notification of you or your attorney, Mr. Weiss. 

That is all now. 

Who is our next witness, Mr. Bobo ? 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Arthur Herman Sobel. 

Cliairman Kefau^^r. Mr. Bohrar, you gave your address and what 
not yesterday, did you not? 

Mr. BoHRAR. I did. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is B-o-h-r-e-r? 

Mr. BoHRAR. B-o-h-r-a-r. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show that Mr. Bohrar is ac- 
companying Mr. Sobel and is his attorney. 

Does Mr. Sobel object to having the television cameras on? 

Mr. Bohrar. He does. 

Chairman Kefauver. Gentlemen, I will ask your cooperation. 

This is Mr. Arthur Herman Sobel. Is that correct, Mr. Bobo? 

Mr. BoBo. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefau^ter. I have not sworn you, have I ? 

Mr. Bohrar. Not yet. Mr. Sobel doesn't hear very well. 


Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Sobel, you have not been sworn, have 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir. 


(Arthur Herman Sobel was sworn.) 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, ask him in a loud voice so he can 

Mr. BoBO. Your name is Arthur Herman Sobel ? 

Mr. Sobel. Eight. 

Mr. BoBo. Where do you live, Mr. Sobel ? 

Mr. Sobel. 319 West 48th Street, Manhattan. 

Mr. BoBO. That is Manhattan, New York? 

Mr. Sobel. That's right. 

Mr. BoBO. How^ old are you ? 

Mr. Sobel. Sixty-four. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Sobel, have you ever been arrested before ? 

(Mr. Sobel confers with Mr. Bohrar.) 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever been arrested, Mr. Sobel ? 

Mr. Sobel. I refuse to answer on the ground of incrimination, under 
section, fifth amendment. 

Mr. BoBO. Were you arrested May 8 

Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute. Mr. Bohrar, is Mr. Sobel 
going to answ^er any questions ? 

Mr. Bohrar. I don't think he will. In fact, I don't believe he will. 

Chairman Kefauver. But you don't know for sure ? 

Mr. Bohrar. I am certain. 

Chairman Kefauver. Can we, then, Mr. Bohrar, have an under- 
standing that when he says "I refuse to answer," that we will under- 
stand he is refusing to answer under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Bohrar. He is invoking the fifth amendment. 

Chairman Kefauver. And that as to" each question he will be 
specifically directed to answer by the chairman of the committee. 

Mr. Bohrar. I understand. 

Chairman Kefau\^er. Without formally directing him to answer. 

Mr. Bohrar. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. Bobo. Were you arrested May 8, 1954, at Lincoln, K-. I. 

Mr. Sobel. I refuse to answer on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Bohrar. Just say you refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that the car you were driving contained 
a large amount of obscene literature when you were arrested at Lin- 
coln, R. I. ? 

Chairman Kefauver. You refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Sobel. Just a moment, your Honor. I would like to go into 
every detail about this particular case. 

When I was arrested for speeding, they stopped me and they broke, 
the police broke into the car, for the reason because I had no proper 
license. They were registered under a name, Harold Kantor, to 
whom this car belonged. 

They broke the lock of the car. They asked me for the keys of 
the trunk, a little suitcase about 2 by lYo, just about the size of the 
suitcase. They asked me whether I have the keys to the suitcase. I 


told them I have not. They searched me all over, even internally, to 
look for the keys, but they could not find the key. I don't know 
what's in there. It does not belong to me. 

They broke the suitcase open. In the suitcase they found various 
literature, probably 10 books, or 10 rolls, or some pictures. 

All in all, after I spoke to Mr. Kantor when he gave me the car 
to deliver some merchandise to a store out in Worcester, he told me 
the whole thing amounts to about $200, the entire thing, and that was 
actually what to my knowledge it would be worth, 10 books, 10 rolls, 
and a few other little things in it. 

They arrested me. First they kept me overnight and they put 
me under $1,500 bail the first time, and about an hour later they 
raised my bail and put in another charge for transportation. 

I got an attorney recommended from the barracks, and this man 
told^'me that he was going to charge me $100, and he got me a 
bondsman. I paid him the hundred. 

Finally he told me he wants $2,000 to try the case. I thought he 
was only out for money; I engaged another man, but the judge will 
not let the release for that attorney, get another attorney, unless I 
pay this man $200 additional money, which I did. 

A hearing was held. The troopers admitted that they broke into 
the car, th^v broke the lock, and they had all the evidence which 
they had right in that car. They had nothing on me whatsoever. I 
delivered the merchandise in Worcester, which I asked the man to 
let me have the car. 

This man pleaded guilty, the same man who loaned me the car 
pleaded guilty in Federal court on January 5 for mailing and trans- 
portation of lewd literature. I don't know what happened to the 
Chairman Kefatjver. February 5 of this year ? 

Mr. SoBEL. This is a copy of the 

Chairman Kefauver. May I see that? 

Mr. SoBEL. This is a copy of the pleading [handing to Chairman 
Kefauver] . 

This car belonged to this man. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have given me, Mr. Sobel, United States 
District Court of the Southern District of New York, United ."States 
of America v. Harold Kantor, before the Hon. Lawrence E. Walsh, 
district judge, stenographer's minutes. 

These minutes are where he pleaded guilty ? 

Mr. SoBEL. He pleaded guilty. You see, in this particular time, 
the case was on for about a year and a half. 

This car was registered under his mother's name, which I found 
out later. He is the one who let me use the car. It was a 1937 
Buick, that he paid $7.5 for it, and he let me use it. I never knew what 
he had in the back of that car. 

Chairman Kefau\^r. Let me see if I understand this. 
You had Mr. Kantor's car and he had some — who is Mr. Kantor? 
Mr. Sobel. Who is he ? 
Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. Sobel. Well, a fellow that I knew, that he used to be m the 
chemical business. I never knew that he handled any of that stuff. 


He happened to come up to the place on a Friday. When I told 
him that I have an order to deliver to Worcester, and I don't know how 
to (i:et there, he says, "Why don't you use my car?'' 

With that, he gave me the keys and he told me he had some stuff 
in back which I don't need, and he let me use the car. 

With that I went with that car. I didn't know nothing about it, 
what was in that car. There was nothing on me in any shape or 

Chairman Kefai^ver. What was it you delivered at Worcester? 

Mr. SoiiEL. In Worcester, I delivered a magazine called Sunshine 
and Plealth, that was a decision last week in the Supreme Court that 
is legal to use the mail and sell it. 

Chairman Kefauver. And so you delivered some Sunshine and 
Health at AVorcester? 

jVIr. SoiiEL. I don't hear. 

Cliairman Kefauver. You delivered a magazine Sunshine and 
Health at Worcester? 

Mr. SoBEL. I sold it to a store up there. And the man gave me a 
check, which they found in my possession, and he told them what 
I sold him. 

Chairman Kefauver. Then you went on to Providence? 

Mr. SoBEL. Then I went to Providence. I was going to go to a 
race track on a Saturday, but it was raining so bad that I decided 
to go back to New York, which I was turning, going to New York. 
I never stopped — they check everybody in the wdiole vicinity. They 
found a list in the car and they called everyone of them when they 
fouiid that, whether they ever heard of me or saw me or they knew 
me. ^i o one said that they knew me. 

Chairman Kefauver. What happened in the case in Rhode Island ? 

]Mr. SoBEL. Here is what happened to the case : Originally I got 
a certain man 

Chairman KEFAU^■ER. Did they let you out, or did they convict you ? 

Mr. SoBEL. I got an attorney who told me that he will — there is 
nothing to it, that he is going to the Supreme Court instead of the 
district court; they had no right to break into the car; they had 
no right to search me, the stuli' does not belong to me. 

After dragging the case for about a year and paying him all the 
money that was due him, $1,000 that I agreed, he came down and 
he started to send me wires I should send him more money, 500, 500, 
which I didn't. And he saw that he couldn't get any more money 
out of me, he says, "The best thing for you in this particular case 
is for you to plead, whether no pros, it is not a conviction, you are 
letting the court to decide whether the decision in the case, and I 
will get a suspended sentence." 

After I pleaded to that he sent me a wire back, which I have in 
my possession, I should send $1,000 tine, otherwise they can't do it. 

I told him why not withdraw the case and go to court with it. Well, 
he says, "The best thing to do, I can't withdraw my claim," and that's 
what happened. They gave me $1,000 fine. 

In other words, I was forced under duress, right in court, I told 
them I would like to withdraw my case and try the case, because I 
never had anything to do with it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anyway, you paid $1,000? 

Mr. Sobel. I paid $1,000 fine/and costs. 


Chairman Kefattv'er. ^Vliere is Mr. Kantor now ? 

Mr. SoBEL. Mr. Kantor, I don't know where he is, but he is m — 
whether he was sentenced or not, I don't know. 

Chairman Kefau's^r. Is he living now ? 

Mr. SoBEL. I don't know. 

Chairman KErAu\T:R. This transcript which shows about the car, 
will be filed as an exhibit here and not copied in the record, but filed 
as an exhibit. 

(Tlie document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 14, 
and is on file with the subcommittee.) 

Mr. SoBEL. As a matter of fact, the lawyer had a 

Chairman Kefauver. How long were you in business in this Sun- 
shine and Health magazine, Mr. Sobel? 

Mr. SoBEL. About a year ago, in April, Dr. Boone came to me, I 
told him that if I can sell those magazines, and with that he gave me 
about 3,000 of them. 

I knew that you can't sell them in New York— no; for a fact I had 
them quite awhile, but I didn't care to sell them in New York, for the 
reason that it was illegal to sell them on the newsstands, and I didn't 
want to handle them. 

But he came down to me with a decision from a district court judge, 
admitting, getting an injunction against the postmaster. The United 
States court went and appealed the case to the court of appeals, and 
they upheld the decision of the district court. 

Then the case went to the Supreme Court, it was last week or 2 
weeks ago, and they refused to review the case, claiming this is not 

Chairman Kefauver. The magazine you are talking about is called 
Sun Bathing; is that right? 

Mr. SoBEL. Sun Bathing and — they have about 3 or 4 different 
magazines, but they are all on the similar, they have been printing 
them for the last 35 years, as I understood. 

Chaiman Kefaua^er. How long were you in the business of handling 
these magazines? 

Mr. SoBEL. Well, probably since that time, since about March or 
February or April 1954. 

Chairman Kefauat.r. Who is this Dr. Boone that you talk about? 

Mr. SoBEE. Wliere is Dr. Boone ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, who is he and where is he? 

Mr. SoBEL. Well, he is in Jersey, Mays Landing. Under the name 
Nudist magazine, or something in that effect. 

Chairman KEFAU^^:R. What is Dr. Boone's first name, do you know? 

Mr. SoBEL. I don't know. He is the president of the company. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are right, the Supreme Court did in its 
decision make some ruling in connection with some of these, with the 
Nudist magazine and Sun Bathing. Are you still in that business? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your regular business, sir? 

Mr. SoBEL. My occupation now? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. SoBEL. Well, I sell various items, like perfume, which I have 
my own registered name. And I also sell various other novelty stuff, 
and so on. 

Chairman Kjefauver. Do you have a store ? 


Mr. SoBEL. No. I hiid quite an office, but being the publicity that 
came along, I had to curtail all my activities. I took just a mailing 
address, which I still maintain at the same place. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where is your place of business ? 

Mr. SoBEL. 1133 Broadway. 

Chairman Kefauver. AVliat is the name of your business ? 

Mr. SoBEL. The name of the firm ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. SoBEL. Loki Co. 

Chairman Kefauver. Along with your business, have you ever been 
in the business of selling pornography, distributing it ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 1 had a factory on 11th Avenue for 5 years 
where I employed 400 people until 1949. 

Chairman Kefauver. You had a factory in the 

ISIr. SoBEL. Where I manufactured dolls and doll carriages. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have perfume here, Loki, Paris of New 

Mr. SoBEL. I am selling to various stores in New York, and Boston, 
and as a matter of fact in various other places. 

Chairman Kefauver. You never have been in this film business ? 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir ; never did. 

Chairman Kefauver. I don't see why you came here prepared to 
answer questions, then. 

Mr. SoBEL. I don't know. 

Chairman Kefauver. You haven't anything to hide? 

Mr. Sobel. I am charged with having in my possession $50,000 
worth of merchandise. Evidently I should be worth at least $25,000, 
but my records, 1 have been sick in 1950 and 1951, I was operated in 
the hospital for about 3, 4 weeks, and I couldn't work after that. And 
then things didn't move along fairly well. 

I started a few things. As a matter of fact, last year, in 1954, 1 had 
a firm that put up $15,000 to go in business with them, they financed 
me the deal in the perfume business, whicli I was working at until 
this thing came along. 

Chairman Kefauver. This trouble in Rhode Island, is that the only 
trouble you ever had ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir, never been in Rhode Island. 

Chairman Kefauver. In Providence. 

Mr. SoBEL. Providence; no. Well, I was in Providence, probably 
I used to go to the races now and then. And then I would go out and 
try to buy some jobs in jewelry, but I don't think I was down there 
more than twice or three times during my lifetime. 

Chairman Kefauver. I said, this time you got arrested and where 
you paid a fine when you had Mr. Kantor's car, is that the only time 
you have been in trouble with the law ? 

Mr. Sobel. I have been in trouble before with the law. I have been 
in trouble for a few other times. I have been in trouble for not renew- 
ing a license for a gun, which I went to Boston, I stayed there for a 
couple of years. When I come down here I brought them back the 
license and they say to me, "Well, technically you are not guilty; 
morally you are guilty," and they gave me a fine-^no, a suspended 
sentence. But I show^ed them I had a license in Boston. 

At the time I brought the gun back to the station house, to take that 
gun and hold it, if I will renew my license or not, I don't know. He 


says, "Take that check with you, and if the license will not be renewed, 
then you will bring it back." 

As it came out, there was a fight in the street. They searched me 
and picked up the gun. They brought me back to the station, and 
they verified on it. 

Chairman IvEFAtn^R. That was in 1930, possession of a revolver. 
You got a suspended sentence ; is that it ? 

Mr. SoBEL. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. I see in February 1934 you were charged 
with forging sweepstake tickets. 

Mr. SoBEL. They weren't forged. As a matter of fact, I worked 
for the Government, for the Irish Government, a man by the name of 
Frisco employed me. I was getting at the time salary and expenses 
to work for him, for 2 years. 

Chairman Kefauver. So that was a mistake. 

Then October 1934, you got 3 months for gambling; did you not? 

Mr. SoBEL. For gambling? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. SoBEL. That was the same charge. This is the same charge, 
gambling and possession of lottery tickets. That's what they charged 
for, possession of lottery tickets. 

Chairman Kefauver. One seems to have been in February 1934, 
and the other seems to have been in October 1934. 

Mr. SoBEL. No; it's wrong on that. 

Chairman Kefau\'er. Then in July 1937, conspiring to transport 
stolen securities. What was that? 

Mr. SoBEL. That was another case that has to be fully explained. 

Just a moment, you fellows are laughing, but I will show you how 
justice was meted out in a United States court, which I have a copy 
of 1937 papers, where tlie papers came out, "Unusual procedure took 
place in Federal court," in two newspapers. 

I had an attorney who died 3 days before the trial. It tells you 
everything right here. He died before the trial, and I wanted to get 
an adjournment, and the judge says, "No adjourmnent." 

Butler objected to the adjournment, go on trial. And I had an 
attorney I just brought in for the day, and he appeared for me and 
he told the judge that the attorney died, which they knew, and they 
wanted an adjournment just to get the papers that my man, that my 
attorney had in his possession, because everything is locked on account 
of his death. They refused to give an adjournment. 

Have you ever heard of it, like it? 

Chairman Kefauver. If you want to file something here, we will 
make that an exhibit. 

Mr. Sobel. It is very interesting, what was done [handing document 
to Chairman Kefauver] . They promised me, after I refused ; finally 
they coaxed me and threatened me with all kinds of threats. If I 
don't plead guilty I will get 10 years, or so many years. 

As a result I pleaded guilty. The district attorney promised me 
I will get 3 months. Before, when it came up before the judge it came 
a year and a day. 

But they claim here through my efforts, they bought $12,000 worth 
of stolen stock in my office, but the people who have robbed the bank, 
the president of the bank, and a brewery man, for $250,000, they got 


a suspended sentence. It is all on records. You can have this and 
read it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is all of that in here ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No ; it doesn't say about them, but I know it. 

The papers said it. They got a suspended sentence, after robbing 
the public for a quarter of a million dollars. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have given me a New Haven paper dated 
Tuesday, October 26, 1937. 

Mr. SoBEL. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. And this is the front page. It says: 

Stock Thkft "Fence" Given Prison Term 

Herman Sobol, 49. New York City, alleged "fence" who is reported to have 
sold stolen securities at $18,000 to George Brott, former cashier of the East 
Hampton Bank & Trust Company of East Hampton, was sentenced to 1 year and 
a day. 

What is that fence ; I didn't know what that meant. 

Mr. Sobel. What's that? 

Chairman Kefauver. What does the word "fence" mean in this 
story ? 

Mr. SoBEL. A "fence" would mean a receiver. 

Chairman Kefauver. So they charged you with receiving the se- 
curities ? 

Mr. Sobel. No. They charged me with selling them, for conspiracy 
to sell them. But I never sold any, nor have I ever bought any of 

Chairman Kefauver. Let this be inserted in the record. 

(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 15," and is as follows:) 

[From the New Haven (Conn.) Evening Register, October 26, 1937] 

Stock Theft "Fence" Given Prison Term — New Yobker Also Fined $2,000 
BY Feoeral Court in East Hampton Bank Fraud 

Herman Sobol, 49, New York City, alleged fence who is reported to have sold 
stolen securities at $18,000 to George Brott, former cashier of the Bast Hampton 
Bank & Trust Co. of East Hampton, was sentenced to 1 vear and a day in the 
Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pa., by Judge Carrol C. Hincks in the United 
States district court today after he had entered a plea of guilty to a charge of 
conspiracy to transport stolen securities. 

In addition to the penitentiary term, Sobol was fined $2,000, this to be paid 
before he is released from his sentence. 

United States attorney Robert P. Butler informed the court that Sobol was 
1 of persons involved in the affairs of the defunct East Hampton bank. He said 
that Sobol was a fence who obtained :jOO shares of Noranda Mines. Ltd. common 
stock valued at $18,000 in 1936 and sold them to Brott and one Harry E. Price 
of Hartford, for $1,200. These securities were later used by Brott as collateral 
to secure fake loans in the East Hampton bank, it was charged. 

Mr. Butler said that when the affairs of the East Hampton Bank became 
known in 1936 an investigation revealed the stolen securities which were left 
as collateral for notes signed by Brott as cashier of the bank. 

name forged 

The stocks. Mr. Butler said, were stolen from the desk of R. Thornl)erry, an 
officer of the Nova Scotia ISank in New York. How they got into the hand of 
Sobol he said he did not know. The shares are issued in the name of William 
E. Cunningham, whose name was forged to the certificates. 

Mr. Butler said that the person who forged the securities was known, but has 
not yet been apprehended. He said the man would probably be apprehended later. 


Sobol appeared at first on a not guilty plea. He was represented by J. Michael 
'Sullivan of New York City, prominent criminal lawyer, who asked the court for 
an adiournment of the case today declaring that he was called in at the last 
minute to represent Sobol when previous counsel died, and therefore had no time 
to prepare his case. 


Mr Butler objected to any adjournment declaring that he had witnesses 
present and that Sobol, up to 2 weeks ago, had emitloyed David Paley. Judge 
Hincks turned down the plea for an adjournment and ordered Mr. Sullivan 
to proceed with the case. However, Mr. Sullivan said that the defendant would 
stand mute rather than go to trial unprepared. 

Judge Hincks then asked if the defense counsel would desire a recess to 
inspect the indictment, and it was allowed. It was during the recess that Sobol 
■decided to change his plea. , , . 

liank Commission Walter Perry was among the si>ectators in court. 

Mr. SoBEL. That's what happened in cases where you have no money 
to fight the cases and you are broke. 

Chairman Kefauver. That was up in Connecticut m 1937, was it 

not ? 

Mr. SoBEL. That's the one ; that's the case. 

Chairman Kefauver. Now here in 1937 they have you charged with 
transporting stolen securities out in Pennsylvania. 

Mr. SoBEL. This is the same identical case that you are referring 
to now. It happened, it took place— I was in New York. I was never 
in Connecticut. But the transaction took place in Connecticut. They 
had him indicted. Then they held me as a conspirator for selling it. 

Chairman Kefau-vtsr. Did they try you down in Pennsylvania later, 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Didn't you get charged down in Pennsyl- 
vania ? 

Mr. SoBEL. With what? 

Chairman Ivefauver. Didn't they make a charge against you in 
Pennsylvania ? 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefau\t3R. Never had any trouble in Pennsylvania ? 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Wliat is this July 1937, National Stolen 
Property Act? 

Mr. Sobel. What's that? National what? 

Chairman Kefauver. National Stolen Property Act, 1 year and 1 
day, and a $2,000 fine. 

Mr, Sobel. This is the same thing, right here. 

Chairman Kefauver. Then this other thing was May 8, 1954, trans- 
porting obscene literature. That is the one you are talking about at 
Lincoln, R. I.? 

Mr. Sobel. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have any questions you 
want to ask? 

Mr. BoBO. I have a few questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Did you ever sell any pornographic film to Mr. Harold Kantor ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever have any business dealings other than this 
one time ^^ ith Mr. Kantor i 


Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. Except about 2 or 3 years back, it was the alco- 
holic business in Jersey, and I had some deal with him trying to get 
some perfume out of him. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know a Mr. Fred Berson ? 

Mr. SoBEL. Who? 

Mr. BoBO. Fred Berson, B-e-r-s-o-n ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No. 

Mr. BoBO. You never approached or talked or did any type of busi- 
ness with Mr. Berson ? 

Mr. SoBEL. Don't know him. 

Chairman Kefauver. Have you ever done any business in 
Brooklyn ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 

Mr. BoHRAR. Did you hear the question? Did you ever do any 
business in Brooklyn? 

Mr. SoBEL. What kind of business? 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business in Brooklyn? 

Mr. SoBEL. Well, I sold some merchandise up there, but I didn't 
sell any — except perfume, probably, or some other materials, like 
household goods. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you have some business with Delaware 
Wired Music Co. in Wilmington, Del. ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know that company ? 

Mr. SoBEL. No ; never heard of them. 

Chairman Kefauver. You never heard of them? 

Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Would you make phone calls to there ? 

Mr. SoBEL. Today ? 

Chairman Kefauver. No ; to this Delaware Wired Music Co. ? 

Mr. SoBEL. In Wilmington ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

]Mr. SoBEL. There were phone calls made by a fellow — if this is 
the fellow— who gives out information on races, and I think I had 
a fellow that was in my office — I mean, he used to come up occa- 
sionally — and told me he wants to make a few long distance calls. 
And I think those calls were made to Wilmington to get results on 
races, or something to that effect. 

The same thing happened in Baltimore. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is the Armstrong Sports Service in 
Baltimore ? 

Mr. Sobel. That's right. If he made the calls, I don't know any- 
thing about it. Whatever calls he made, he ])aid me for them. 

Chairman Kefauver. Was that in connection with any bookmak- 
ing business ? 

Mr, Sobel. I don't know if he was connected, but he was using 
the phone. Probably a couple of times a week for about a month or so. 

Chairman Kefauver. We have a long list of calls that you have 
made, and made back and forth to you, either by you or to you, 
from a whole bunch of w^hat appear to be book stores or fun shops, 
and things of that sort. Do you know about those? I could name 
them off here to you. 


Mr. SoBEL. If you will ask me the names I will probably recollect 
and recall. 

Chairman Kefauver. I will just hand you this memorandum and 
let you see it. Here are three pages of them [handing to Mr. Sobel] . 

Mr. SoBEL. George Magic Store, I did call them a few times. As a 
matter of fact, I sold him some picture magazines, the same thing that 
I — I also had some stuff from a film out in Chicago. As a matter of 
fact, they are suing me for 2,000 books that they sent to me. 

Chairman Kefauver. What kind of books were those? 

Mr. SoBEL. Those are picture books, just models, you know, nothing 
else but models. They are selling them right along, they are sending 
them through the mails. I have the name, the Magic — they have 
about three different titles. I have the papers, because Dun & Brad- 
street were trying to serve me with a summons. 

Chairman kEFAIT^T.R. He is trying to sue you for books that he 
claims you have not paid for? 

Mr. SoBEL. What? 

Chairman Kefauver. Is he trying to sue you for books he claims you 
have not paid for ? 

Mr. Sobel. That's right. 

When this case came up to Providence, of course they teletyped it to 
the different stations here in New York. And when I got back on a 
Sunday morning, Monday morning the police were in my hotel and 
the manager let them in to search my room. I found out only about it 
3 weeks later, 3 months later. 

When I got back to the office on a Monday morning there were also 
police down there searching the rooms, the place of business. And 
they went away. But they did find in there the magazine that I got 
from Chicago. They also found the magazines that were from the 
Sunshine and Health. 

They were there, and then they sent over the inspector. The in- 
spector came back and took two of those books with him. 

About a week later the same officers came in; they says they got 
orders from the inspector to take those books out, although they were 
laying in a corner all tightly packed. 

They took them out and they took them to tlie property clerk. I 
was arraigned in special sessions court, and the case was dismissed. 
And still in this clay I couldn't get 

Chairman Kefauver. You were buying books from somebody in 
Chicago, and he is trying to sue you. Did vou buy a lot of books from 

Mr. SoBEL. Did I what ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you buy a lot of books from him ? 

Mr. SoBEL. I bought, yes. But'l told him, if it weren't for the 

Chairman Kefauver. Where did you buy books from, Mr. Sobel? 
Chicago and anywhere else ? 

Mr. Sobel. And those people here. 

Chairman KErAu\T.R. What peo])le here ? 

Mr. Sobel. The Sunshine and Health, in Mays Landing. 

Chairman Kefauver. What would you do with the books ? 

Mr. Sobel. They took the books away, and I never got them back. 


So I reported to the property clerk to claim the books over there. 
They took it out of my place. Never offered to sell them, right here 
or any other place, except out of town. 

Cliairman Kefauvek. Your counsel has a list there of 2 or 3 pages 
of fun shops where you called back and forth. What would all that 
be about? I don't want to go into the details. 

Mr. SoBEL. This probably would be the Wilmington number. Hobo- 
ken number I don't know. Long Beach, St. Louis — that is one of the 
men that was in my office, Schlesser. calling St. Louis. Boston is 
Jack Goldberg. I was selling him perfume. 

Philadelphia, Stanton Bernstein; I don't know him. 

Jack Goldberg again in Boston. 

Stone in Boston : I sold him a lot of perfume for a firm that I repre- 
sented at the time, and I was working on a commission basis, and I 
])robably called him a few times. 

Stone Bros., they are on Hanover Street, this is the right address. 
1 spoke to him a number of times. 

Now, Irving, this is a man that I sold him magazines; he is a book- 
store there. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. Hand me back the book, please. 

(Document returned to Chairman Kefauver.) 

Chairman Kefauver. So those do represent some kind of calls back 
and forth about something, do they ? 

Mr. SoBEL. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know Al Stone ? 

Mr. Sobel. No ; I don't know him. 

Chairman Kefauver. Never saw him before ? • 

Mr. SoBEL. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. How about Mr. Mishkin, do you know him? 

Mr. Sobel. No ; I don't know him either. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have not had any business with Mr. 
Mishkin at all? 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know Mr. Rubinstein, of Brooklyn? 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who is Francis J. Pelletier? 

Mr. Sobel. ^Y\\o ? 

Chairman Kefau^'er. Do you know Mr. Pelletier? 

Mr. Sobel. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, anything else? 

Mr. BoBo. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. We thank you for answering the questions. 
I think we got along a whole lot better than if you refused to answer. 
Don't you think so, Mr. Bohrar?. 

Mr. BoiiRAR. I think so. He did just exactly what he told me he 
wouldn't do. 

Mr. Sobel. If you people came and checked a picture, I couldn't 
liold out any more but tell the truth. This is actually the truth. It 
could be verified through the court over there, with my |)ayment of 
the money, and the refusal to withdraw my plea after I gave the man 
all that money w^e agreed to, and I refused to go to court, after he 
had all the minutes written up. 

Cliairman Kefauver. Your experience with lawyers has not been 
ver}' good, has it ? 

65263—55 12 


Mr. SoBEL. That's when you go through life, it happens. 

Chairman Kefauver. I hope you don t get mixed up with these 
things any more. 

Thank you, Mr. Sobel. 

We will have about a 5-minute recess. 

(Whereupon, a five-minute recess was taken.) 

Chairman Kefauver. The subcommittee is glad to have a visit 
from Dr. Herbert C. Mayer, who is a distinguished former college 
president, who has given the subconnnittee many worthwhile sugges- 
tions and helped us on several problems. We are glad to have you 
with us. Doctor. 

Mr. Bobo, who is our next witness ? 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Abe Rotto. 

Mr. RoTTO. I object to the television. 

Chairman Kefauver. I ask the cooperation of the press. 


(Abe Rotto was sworn.). 

Mr. Levine. I am H. Robert Levine, 154 Nassau Street, New York 

Chairman Kefau\'er. You are Mr. Rotto's attorney, sir? 

Mr. Levene. Yes; I am. 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Your full name is Abe Rotto, R-o-t-t-o ? 

Mr. Rotto. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. What is your address, Mr. Rotto? 

Mr. RoTTO. 55 Linden Boulevard, Brooklyn 26. 

Mr. BoBO. In what business are you engaged ? 

Mr. RoTTo. At the present time I am selling novelties, pens, im- 
ported lighters, gadgets, balloons, various things for candy stores 
and small drugstores. 

Mr. Bobo. Would you speak up, Mr. Rotto ? 

Mr. RoTTO. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bobo. From where do you conduct your business ? 

Mr. RoTTo. From 55 Linden Boulevard. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Rotto, are you acquainted with a Mr. William 
Landers ? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Levine, I will direct the witness to answer 
questions that I w^ish answered. Can we let the record show that 
where he refuses to answer that he is directed to answer ? 

Mr. Levine. Yes ; and that he refuses. 

Chairman Kefauver. And that when he says he refuses to answer, 
we will have it understood that that is under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Levine. That is correct. 

Mr. Bobo. Were you engaged in partnership with Mr. William 
Landers in the Landers Novelty Co., 220 Fifth Avenue, New York? 

Mr. Rotto. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment. 

Chairman Kefauver. We will let the record show what provision 
of the Constitution you are refusing to answer under. That is under- 


Mr. Levine. Yes. 

Mr. RoTTO. Thank you. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Ely Goldsmith of 1321 Nostrand Ave- 
nue, Brooklyn ? 

Mr. EoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Were you arrested with Mr. Goldsmith on February 12. 
1954, for the possession and sale of indecent books, films, and photos f 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Were you released on $250 bail after this arrest ? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have the police record ? 

For the record, the report on which you base your questions may be 
put in the record. 

Mr. BoBO. Were you arrested on July 29, 1954, at 197 Clarkson 
Street for having in your possession indecent films, books and photos? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. I hand you here a list of films and pornographic material 
nnd ask you is this a list of the material that was found in your 
possession as of that date [handing to Mr. Rotto] ? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let it be put in the record to show on what the 
question was based. 

(The document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 16," and 
is as follows:) 

Exhibit No. 10 

.July 29, 1954. 

At 11 : 30 a. m., .July 29, 1954, Patrolman John Hayes, No. 9404, B H. B. P. S., 
<issisted by Patrolman Piay Lamas, No. 7709, B. H. B. P. S., arrested one Abe 
Rotto, male, white, 61 years. United States, address .55 Linden Boulevard. 
(Arrest No. 342, 71st precinct) Charge No. 1, violation of section 1141 P. L. 
(indecent films, books, and photos). Charge No. 2, violation of section 1142 
P. L. (contraceptives, "French ticklers") having had in his possession with intent 
to sell and stored in premises a store (first floor) 197 Clarkson Street (4-story 
brick, stores, and dwelling), owned by E. Miller, 197 Clarkson Street, second 

Following removed and held as evidence : 

Film : Rolls 

8-mm. film (indecent photos) 230 

16-mm. film 84 

Oriswald film splicer, R2-R4.3G62 1 

Mansfield film splicer. Model No. 950 1 

Books and booklets : Copies 

Indecent books, Boudoir Secret 227 

Indecent booklets : 

Lazy Lovers 316 

The Honeymoon 130 

Books : 

Weekend at Nudist Camp (price, $10 per copy) 201 

Playing With a Mistress 60 

Booklets : 

Various 103 

Midnight Intimacies 18 

Books, Affairs of Tronbadore (price $25) .^7 


Books and booklets — Continued 

Booklets : Copies 

London Stage 38 

Jaws of Fate 26 

Erratic Professor 21 

Hollywood in June 63 

Various 1, 130 

Wedding Bells and others 740 

Wally and the King and others 956 

Photos : 

Sets inuecent photos (25 photos per set) 29 

Sets lewd photographs 12V^ 

Sets of lewd postcards — 4 

Lewd photos 300 

Decks lewd playing cards 450 

Package pornographic poses 1 

Slides, immoral poses 9 

Pieces obscene objects 49 

Obscene novelty pins 202 

Contraceptives "French ticklers" (violation Public Law 1142) 183 

Small suggestive telescopes 160 

(Portion of film shown in presence of defendant at 71st precinct, who admitted 

Also defendant's auto, 1949 Pontiac. 4-door. license No. 6Y-8066 seized and 
held as evidence. Found in raito : 1 roll 8-mm. film and 1 roll 16-mm. film and 
miscellaneous cards and salesbooks. 

Followinu' present at scene : D. C. I. Goldberg. D. I. Bradley, Capt. William Fleig, 
Patrolman Robert Kirschmeier. No. 14250 ; Arthur Long, No. 4644 ; Alex Green- 
wald. No. 6650 ; Patrolman Nolan, legal bureau ; Assistant District Attorney Gaza. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that yon have been in the business of selling 
pornography since 1935 ? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin ? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that yon have been purchasino; and dis- 
tributino- pornography from Mr. Al Rubin, Mr. Al Stone, alias Abra- 
ham Rubin, since 1945 ? 

Mr. RoTTO, I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that Mr. Al Stone sold pornographic mate- 
rials to you when you were in a partnership with "William Landers? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bono. Is it not true that he also supplied you with pornographic 
materials at 197 Clarkson Street, Brooklyn, N! Y.? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBo. Is it not true that you refused to divulge the names of 
your suppliers of pornographic material because you feared bodily 
harm ? 

Mr. RoTTo. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Rotto, you are 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rotto, are you refusing to answer any of 
these questions because of fear of retaliation, what might be done to 
you ? 

(Mr. Rotto confers with Mr. I^evine.) 

Mr. RoTTO. I stand on m}^ refusal, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. I did not understand. Are you in 
about which you can tell us at the present time? 

Mr. Rotto. I told the counsel what business I am in. 

Chairman Kefau\ter. How big a business is that ? 


Mr. RoTTO. Very small, sir. 

Chairman Ketauver. Do you sell just in your shop or do you get 
out on the street? 

Mr. RoTTO. I have no shop ; I go out soliciting the business. 

Chairman Kefauver. You go out what? 

Mr. RoTTO. I go out selling these items. 

Chairman Kefauver. You go out selling the items about which 
you are talking? 

Mr. RoTTO. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where do you sell them? 

Mr. RoTTO. I just got started ; I just got a few, just a handful of cus- 
tomers I called on. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you sell in Brooklyn? 

Mr. RoTTO. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauvter. On what street do you w'ork ? 

Mr. RoTTO. Wherever I can land, sir. No street. I am not a street- 
corner hawker, sir. I walk into a store and I try to sell the items 
that I have. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, IVIr. Bobo ; anything else? 

Mr. Bobo. Have you ever been employed as a salesman for the Times 
Square Corp.? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Have you ever received any telephone calls from Mr. Al 
Stone, alias Abraham Rubinstein? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Do you know Edgar Maynard Levy, of Washington, 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business with Mr. Levy ? 

Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Rotto, we will keep you under con- 
tinuing subpena subject to further call of the committee, upon notice 
to you or your counsel, Mr. Leviiie. That is all now. 

Mr. RoTTO. Thank you, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Call our next witness. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Eugene Maletta. 

Mr. Lazer. My client will object to the use of television. 


(Mr. Maletta was sworn by the chairman.) 

Chairman Kefauier. Mr. Maletta — by the way, what is your name, 

Mr. Lazer. Leon D. Lazer, 120-09 Liberty Avenue, Richmond Hill, 
N. Y. 

Chairman Kefauver. Richmond Hill, N. Y. ? 

Mr. Lazer. Richmond Hill ; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Maletta, what is your address ? 

Mr. Maletta. 188-29 120th Avenue, St. Albans, N. Y. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. You ask Mr. Maletta 
your questions. 

How old are you, sir ? 

Mr. Maletta. Twenty-eight. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let me ask one or two questions. 


Mr. BoBO. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Were you born here in New York ? 

Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where did you go to school ? 

Mr. Maletta. I don't want to get it in the papers. 

Mr. Lazer. You have got to answer the questions. 

Mr. Maletfa. I went to P. S. 62, P. S. 108. Then I went to Stuyve- 
sant High School, and then to City. I finished school after I came- 
out of the Army in Jamaica High School on Long Island. 

Chairman Kefaua-er. Do you w^ant to tell us what business you 
are in ? 

Mr. Maletta. I am in the printing business, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is the name of your company ? 

Mr. ]\Ialetta. Pilgrim Press. 

Chairman Kefauver. 103-43 Lefferts Boulevard, Richmond Hill? 

Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You started in this about 1950 ? 

Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that a corporation ? 

Mr. Maletta. No, sir ; it is sole ownership. 

Chairman Kefauver. How large a press is this ? 

Mr. Maletta. I have a fairly large place, Senator. 

Chairman Kefai^ er. How many people do you employ ? 

Mr. JNIaletta. I employ three, sir, plus my wife who helps me out. 

Chairman Kefauver. What do you print at this press ? 

Mr. Maletta. We print any printing job at all. Senator, any type of 
printing. We do business cards, any type of printing that is called 
for in the normal course of an office work, or anything such as that. 

Chairman Kefau^'er. Did you print Nights of Horror ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment, that it may tend to incriminate me. Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. I will have to direct you to answer it. 

Mr. Maletta. I would still have to refuse. Senator under the fifth 

Chairman Kefaum^r. Can we understand, then, Mr. Lazer, that 
when the questions are asked, Mr. Maletta will be directed to answer. 

Mr. Lazer. Yes ; that is agreed to. Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. And if he refuses to answer we will under- 
stand that that is under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Lazer. That is agreed to. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, IMr. Bobo. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Maletta, did you ever have in your possession plates 
used for printing Nights of Horror ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Mr. Maletta, have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. It is not true that you were arrested in New York for 
printing and having in your possession obscene literature under the 
title of Nights of Horror ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Is it not true that the plates which you had in your pos- 
session were furnished to you by Mr. Eddie Mishkin ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefautver. Do you know Mr. Eddie Mishkin ? 


Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer, Senator. 

Chairman Kefauver. How large is this business of yours; what 
is your gross business a year? 

Mr. Maletta. Well, I don't have my tax forms: they have it. 
But I think last year I did— I am not sure, Senator; I mean, every 
day I do business. But I think I did about between thirty-five and 
forty thousand dollars. I am not sure exactly. Senator. 

Chairman Kefau\"er. I understand that the reports you have given 
here show forty-odd-thousand dollars. 

Mr. Maletta. I will tell you the truth, all I did was sign the form. 
My accountant comes every month, and he does it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Levine your regular lawyer — I mean 
Mr. Lazer? 

Mr. Lazer. May I make a statement. Your Honor? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

Mr. Lazer. Bather. Senator. I represent Mr. Maletta in some, 
matters, and I don't in some other matters. 

I think you might describe me as one of his lawj^ers. 

Chairman Kefau\"er. All right. Thank you, sir. 

Continue, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Maletta, when did you first begin in the printing 
business ? 

Mr. Maletta. I first began in the printing business working for 
someone else, sir, after I came out of the Army. 

Mr. BoBO. "\^nien did you first establish the Pilgrim Press? 

Mr. Malett\4. I think 1950. I think I am in it 5 years. 

Mr. BoBo. At that time what was your net worth, Mr. Maletta ? 

Mr. MaletTxV. To start my business I borrowed money, to be exact. 

Mr. BoBO. From whom did you borrow this money ? 

Mr. Maletta. I borrowed money from my mother, and later on 
from banks to help increase the business. 

Mr. BoBo. Have you ever borrowed any money from Mr. Eddie 
Mishkin ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. BoBO. What is your net worth as of today, Mr. Maletta? 

Mr. Maj.etta. I will estimate. I could not say exactly. I have 
about $35,000 worth of equipment and fixtures, plus stock. 

Mr. Bobo. In the past 4 years you have purchased most of this 
equipment valued at approximately $35,000 ? 

Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Was all the income you derived from printing, stationery, 
business cards, and items of that type? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer this. 

Mr. BoBO. Did anyone furnish you the money to purchase the equip- 
ment which you are now using ? 

Mr. Maletta. No; no one furnished me with any money, except the 
banks. I did borrow from various banks. 

Mr. Bono. Mr. Maletta. have you ever printed anv memo pads 
entitled "Things To Do Today" ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever sell any of these memo pads to Mr. Eddie 
Mishkin, or the Kingsley Book Store ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Bobo. Did you buy an offset press at the figure of $5,000 ? 


Mr, Maletta. Yes. I bought it from Craig & O'Kane Corp. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any of the funds for purchasing this 
press, Mr. Eddie Mishkin ? 

Mr. Mai.etta. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. BoBO. Is an offset press the type of ]n-ess that uses phites to 
present printed matter ? 

Mr. Maletta. If I interpret you, in other words, it uses phxtes to 
reproduce ; and that's it. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever printed any books or magazines of any 

Mr. Maletta. I have j^rinted various books and literature. 

Cliairman KE^Au^^:R. Is it the Nights of Horror — do you know this 
Cosmo Boy — do you know the book Xiglits of Horoor ? 

Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer that. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very welh I guess that is all, Mr. Maletta. 
We may want to call you back again, sir. 

Mr. Lazer. We will hold ourselves ready. 

Chairman Kefauver. I should say that a number of these witnesses 
plead the fifth amendment, all of these matters will be studied by the 
staif of the committee and submitted to the whole committee for such 
action as may be indicated. 

I must say that personally I don't see the justification for the plea 
in answer to many of the questions that have been asked by counsel. 
We have had before us some })eople who the records show are substan- 
tial people in this pornographic business, Mr. Mishkin particularly, 
whose name appears as one of the big operators, the kingpins in the 
business, in a good part of the country. 

I cannot say what will be the action on some of these pleas, but they 
w^ill be presented to the committee, and my personal recommendation 
will be to the committee that the ])leas are not justified in answer to a 
good many questions by counsel. 

Who is our next witness ? 

Mr. BoBo. ]\Ir. Lou Shomer. 


(Mr. Shomer was sworn by the Chairman.) 

Chairman Kefau\'er. You are counsel ? 

Mr. Rachsteix. Yes, sir. Jacob Rachstein, E-a-c-h-s-t-e-i-n. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your address, Mr. Rachstein? 

Mr. Rachstein. 280 Broadway, New York. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are counsel here for Mr. Shomer? 

Mr. Rachstein. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you give us your full name? 

Mr. Shomer. Louis Shomer. 

Mr. BoBO. What is your present address, Mr. Shomer ? 

Mr. Shomer. 1541 East Fifth Street, Brooklyn. 

Mr. BoBO. Is that Brooklyn, N. Y. ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, in what business are you engaged? 

Mr. Shomer. In the real-estate business. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you speak up so I can hear you ? 

Mr. Shomer. I am in the real-estate business. 


Mr. BoBO. I^Ir. Sliomer, have yon ever been engaged in liandling 
pornogr-a]1hic materials ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. j i^o 

Mr. BoBO. In what type of pornoofra])hic materials have yon dealt? 

Mr. Shomer. I took photographs, improper pliotographs. 

Mr. BoBO. Yon took improper pliotographs? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Showing obscene acts and perversion? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. When were yon engaged in this bnsiness? 

Mr. Shomer. Before the war. 

Mr. BoBO. What year Avas that ? 

Mr. Shomer. 1940, I believe. 

Mr. BoBO. To whom did yon sell these photographs which you 


Mr. Shomer. I didn't sell any photographs. I jnst took the photo- 
graphs. I was a photographer. 

Mr. BoBO. I can't hear yon, Mr. Shomer. 

Mr. Shomer. I didn't sell these photographs; I jnst did the pho- 

Mr. BoBO. For whom did yon work ? 

Mr. Shomer. For Jack Brotman. 

Chairman Kefaitver. 1 did not understand yon. 

Mr. Shomer. Jack Brotman. 

Chairman Kefauver. How do yon spell the last name? 

Mr. Shomer. B-r-o-t-m-a-n. 

Chairman Kefaitver. Where does he live ; where is he ? 

Mr. Shomer. I don't know, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Yon don't know ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. I haven't seen him since then. 

Mr. BoBO. Did that take place in New York City ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, have yon ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Shomer. I was arrested then. 

Mr. BoBO. What sentence did you receive? 

Mr. Shomer. I was sentenced to the city prison. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever been arrested since that time ? 

Mr. Shomer. Onc«. 

Mr. BoBO. W[mt were yon arrested for then ? 

Mr. Shomer. I don't remember the charge, but it was possession 
of indecent or improper literature, possession, and transportation. 

Mr. BoBO. Where did that arrest take place ? 

Mr. Shomer. In Portsmouth. 

Mr. BoBO. Portsmouth, Maine? 

Mr. Shomar. No. Portsmonth, Va. 

Mr. BoBO. At that time what type of pornographic material did 
you have in your possession ? 

Mr. Shomer. I didn't have it in my possession. I was accompany- 
ing a friend, and he was riding down to Florida. He had some trouble 
with the car then, and he was arrested and I was with him. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know from whom your friend received the porno- 
graphic material he had in the car? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 


Mr. BoBO. What is the name of your friend that was arrested 
with you ? 

Mr. Shomer. Ben Riceburg. 

Mr. BoBO. How do you spell that ? 

Mr. Shomer. R-i-c-e-b-u-r-g. 

Mr. BoBO. R-i-c-e-b-u-r-g? 

Mr. Shomer. I think so. 

Mr. BoBO. Where does Mr. Riceburg live ? 

Mr. Shomer. Somewhere in New York. I don't see him. 

Mr. BoBO. You have not seen him since the time you were arrested ? 

Mr. Shomer. No ; I saw him once last year. 

Mr. BoBO. What was his address at the time 3^ou were arrested ? 

Mr. Shomer. I don't remember. 

Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, have you ever had any dealings, or do you 
know Mr. Ike or Isadore Dorf man, of Baltimore, Md. ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Haven't you ever met, or didn't you in fact, in 1953, 
meet Mr. Dorfman and George Fodor in Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you meet these two people in Brooklyn, N. Y. ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you had any business dealings at all with Mr. 
Tsadore Dorfman and Mr. George Fodor? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know where the Brooklyn Navy is ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. Did you not in 1953 meet with Mr. Ike Dorfman and 
Mr. George Fodor in the company of a man named Ben ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Edgar Maynard Levy of Washington, 
D. C? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. You have never had any business dealings with Edgar 
Maynard Levy ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. He formerly lived on Tinker Drive on Long Island. 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't know him ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Eddie Mishkin ? 
• Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any business dealings at all with 
the Kingsley Book Store ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Or the Times Square Corp. ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any, or do you know Mr. Al Stone? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any business dealings with Mr. 
Al Stone, alias xVbe Rubin ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 
. Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, do you have the original records which 
were called for in your subpena ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir, I have everything. 


Mr. BoBO. Do you have those where they could be presented to the 
subcommittee ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. What was your income for the year 1954 i 

Mr. Shomer. I have the records here, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, about how much was it ? 

Mr. SiioMER. About eight or nine thousand. It's a jomt income, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Joint income of you and your wife? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. In the business in which you are engaged, what was the 
cross business which you did 'I 

Mr. Shomer. Which business do you mean, sir? The real estate 
business ? 

Mr. BoBO. The real estate business. 

Mr. Shomer. I have just gone into it in the last 2 months. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have gotten out of the other and gone 
into this: is that right? . n.- t i i 

Mr. Showier. I have been out of business now since 194(. 1 had a 
publishing business, and my health failed, and I had to give it up. 
The business was on its way down. 

Chairman Kefauver. Didn't you write some books and some 

irticles ( 

Mr. Shomer. I used to write the Laugh Library at that time, pub- 
lisher. It was distributed nationally on the newsstands. 

Chairman Kefauver. When you would make these pictures, to 
w'hom did you sell them? 

Mr. Shomer. I didn't sell them; I just did the photography tor 
someone else. 

Chairman Kefauver. Someone else would furnish you the models 
and the equipment and you would make the pictures '? 

^Ir. Shomer. No. The party that I worked for subsequently was 
arrested, we all were arrested, and his conviction, because he opened 
up on evervone. I was just the employee. 

Mr. Bono. Do you know Mr. Harry Kunkelman? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Cleveland, Ohio? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Akron, Ohio ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. You have never sold or dealt in any motion-picture film 
with Mr. Kunkelman ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Have you ever received any negatives from Mr. Kunkel- 
man or transferred any negatives to him? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Shomer, we don't want to get you m any 
trouble here, but we have a lengthy letter from the captain of detec- 
tives out at Akron, saying that they had Harry Kunkelman before 
them and he received a great deal of films, from their investigation, 
find that Mr. Kunkelman's statement was that one of the principal 
sources of this material was from you. 

Mr. Shomer. That's not true, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't think that is true? 

Mr. Shomer. I know it is not. 


Chairman Kefauver. You never shipped any out to Akron? 

Mr. Shomer. Never, sir. 

Chairman Keifauver. You don't know Mr. Kunkelman ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't know this man Harry Kunkehnan 
at all? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. How much material of pornographic nature 
was in this automobile in which you were riding with your friend in 
Portsmouth, Va. ? 

Mr. Shomer, There were several packages, but I don't know how 

Chairman Kefauver. You inean several big packages? 

Mr. Shomer. I really don't know. 

Chairman Kefau\^er. Where was he taking it, to Florida ? 

Mr. Shomer. I really wouldn't know. 

Chairman Kefauver. You were riding with him. To where did 
you start out? 

Mr, Shomer. We left from Brooklyn. 

Chairman Kefauver. And where were you going to? 

Mr. Shomer. We were going to Florida. 

Mr. Chumbris. Where in Florida ? 

Mr, Shomer, Miami, 

Mr. Chumbris. AMio to in Miami ? 

Mr, Shomer. I wouldn't know, 

Mr. Chumbris. Where did you finally end up? 

Mr. Shomer, Portsmouth. In jail. 

Mr. BoBo. Did your friend make any stops between Newark and 
Portsmouth, Va., and drop off any pornographic literature or any- 
thing in his car? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr, BoBo. Neither you nor he stopped at any place? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. BoBo. Have you ever been in Port Chester, N, Y,, Mr. Shomer? 

Mr. Shomer. Where? 

Mr. BoBo. Port Chester, N, Y. 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir, 

Mr. BoBO. You never have met Mr. Edgar Maynard Levy in Port 
Chester, N. Y., and transferred to him large quantities of pornographic 
material ? 

Mr. Shomer. Never, 

Chairman Kefauver, All right, Mr. Shomer. If we want vou again, 
we will get in touch with Mr. Rachstein. 

Mr. BoBO, I^have just one more question. Senator, if I may. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. All right. 

Mr. BoBo. During the past month, from April through May 15, 
you have deposited in the bank some $16,733,20, 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. Was that all derived from what source ? 

Mr. Shomer. When I sold the large book company I had about 
$25,000 or $30,000, and I got about $10,000 for the large book company. 
Tlien I sold my house, T got $11,000 out of that. 

Mr. BoBo. When did you sell your book company ? 


Mr. Shomer. I sold that to 

Mr. BoBo. When? 

Mr. Shomer. In 1947. 

Mr. BoBo. This is April 4, 1955, we were speaking of, March 29. 
1955, through April 2, 1955. 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. Now may I have the question again, please? 

Mr. BoBO. From what source did you derive the $16,7o3.20 ? 

Mr. Shomer. I have the money at my broker's. I ordered the 
money from my broker. I got a $10,000 check and a $2,000 check from 
my broker. 

Mr. BoBO. Who is your broker ? 

Mr. Shomer. Barron G. Helbig & Co. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Gennaio Di Napoli and Mr. Ealph 
Ardolina ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. You paid them on March 31, 1955, $4,000? 

Mr. Shomer. That's right. 

Mr. BoBo. What was that payment for, sir ? 

Mr. Shomer. That's a contract on a house on East Second Street, 
1714. The closing will be the end of July, July 28, 1 believe— June 28. 

Mr. BoBO. And your average income, according to your bank de- 
posits, is some $2,000 a week from March 29 to April 2? 

Mr. Shomer. Bank deposit? 

Mr. BoBO. Yes. 

Mr. Shomer. I have no bank deposit. 

Mr. BoBO. In the National City Bank of New York City. 

Mr. Shomer. It is a bank account I just opened up to do the real 
estate business. Whenever I need any money I get it from the broker. 
I didn't have any prior bank accounts. I would sell some stock and 
get what I need. 

Mr. BoBO. March 29 to April 2, April 4, 6 days, you had transac- 
tions involving $16,733.20? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. I have the contracts here. 

Chairman Ivefauver. All right, Mr. Shomer. Thank you. 

Mr. Rachstein. Your Honor, is his checkbook available, by any 

Chairman Kefauver. Can we return it to him, Mr. Bobo? 

Mr. BoBO. Yes [handing] . 

Mr. Rachstein. Thank you very much. Your Honor. 

Chairman Kefauver. Since being here we have received a good 
many letters from people expressing interest in the hearing. I am 
particularly interested to receive one letter today postmarked Brook- 
lyn, May 25. It says: 

Dear Sir : This is an unsolicited advertisement received by a 16-year-oId high- 
school boy. 


An Anxious Mother. 

The advertisement apparently came in this envelope [exhibiting], 
Atine Co.. 631 Third Avenue, New York City. The advertisement 
will speak for itself. I am going to put the advertisement soliciting, 
trying to sell movies, nude pictures, various and sundry kinds of 
things, in the record. This will be made part of the files. 

(The matter above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 17," and 
is on file with the subcommittee.) 


Chairman Kefauvek. Maybe some of the press would like to see- 
what is being sent out through the mails. 

The other witnesses that we have subpenaed, and some others, will 
be asked to come back next Tuesday, the 31st. Our hearing that 
morning will begin sharply at 10 o'clock. 

We stand in recess until next Tuesday. 

(Whereupon, at 4 : 30 p. m., the subcommittee recessed until 10 a. m.,, 
Tuesday,May 31, 1955.) 


(Obscene and Pornographic Materials) 

TUESDAY, MAY 31, 1955 

United States Senate, 
Subcommittee of the Commii'iee on the Judiciary, 

TO Investigate Juvenile Delinquency, 

New York, N. Y. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10:20 a. m., in 
room 1703, United States Court House, Foley Square, New York City, 
N. Y., Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman, presiding. 

Present : Senators Estes Kefauver and William Langer. 

Also present : Peter N. Chumbris, associate counsel ; Vincent Gaug- 
han, special counsel ; George Butler, investigator ; George Martin, in- 
vestigator; Pat Kiley, investigator, and William Haddad, consultant. 

Chairman Kefauver. As chairman of the subcommittee, I want to 
apologize for being late this morning; although I left Washington in 
ample time, my plane had some difficulty in landing and also finding 
a place to put out the airport — the traffic was pretty bad, too. 

We are awfully glad to have Senator Langer with us again this 
morning at this hearing. 

Today the subcommittee is holding its third hearing on pornographic 
material and its tie-in to juvenile delinquency. 

At our first meeting last Tuesday, several witnesses established the 
correlation between pornographic material and juvenile delinquency, 
which I think most of us understood, anyway. 

Dr. Karpman, for instance, the famous criminologist, said that he 
was convinced that the distribution of these materials among youngs- 
ters in many cases led to unnatural sex practices and to juvenile de- 

Father Egan and others testified that they had noticed a definite 
increase in the use of these materials by youngsters. 

On Thursday the pattern of sale and distribution of these materials 
was established. Pornography was shown to be "big business" with 
tentacles in almost every community in the Nation. 

The members of the subcommittee were shocked to learn that chil- 
dren as young as 3 and 4 years old were being used in making porno- 
graphic films. Although this low age bracket is the singular case, it 
was established that boys and girls in their upper teens, not only see 
these films, but actually engage in their manufacture and sale." In 
most cases these children are being exploited by unscrupulous adults. 

On Thursday several witnesses saw fit to avail themselves of the 
self-incriminations of the fifth amendment. I feel that all of these 
witnesses were unjustified in refusing to answer some of the ques- 



tions and, as I stated at the time, my recommendation would be 
that they be proceeded against for contempt of the Senate. 

Today we are recalling some of these witnesses for additional ques- 
tions. Several portions of their testimony are in need of clarification. 
If they see fit, they can use this opportunity to cooperate with the 
committee, ancl that will be taken into consideration. 

Senator Langer. I say, Mr. Chairman, you have unanimous support 
in your attitude as to those pleading the fifth amendment. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you. Senator Langer. I am certain 
that the other members of the committee will feel that they were 
unjustified in refusing to testify and answer some of the questions. 

In our hearings last week we saw that the pornography business 
operates partially, at least, because of loopholes in the Federal law to 
curtail distribution of these materials. 

In addition, widepsread use of pornography exists because of in- 
adequate local and State laws. I sincerely hope that every community 
will evaluate its own pornography laws and possibly revamp them 
in the light of information extracted at these hearings. 

Any community that desires the help of the staff of the subcom- 
mittee or of the subcommittee need only to write and' we will assist 
them in any way possible. 

I am glad to say that there is a connnunication and a contact be- 
tween tlie members of this staff and many legislators and enforce- 
ment officials throughout the country. 

Of course, in the final analysis the attitude of the public will be 
what will determine whether this business is going to be stamped 
out or not. 

We have had witnesses who have testified as to the seriousness of 
this problem, one, that they think this is more serious than commu- 
nism; others think that it is more serious than narcotics. In any 
event, we do think the hearings have brought out that it is of more 
sinister influence than most people have thought. 

Today we will hear from postal and customs officials about their 
problems in curtailing the distribution of pornography; we will also 
hear from subpenaed witnesses who are allegedly engaged in the sale, 
distribution, and manufacture of pornographic materials. 

By cooperating with this subcommittee these witnesses can help 
wipe out this hideous business that preys like a vulture upon many 
of our innocent children. 

Senator Langer, do you wish to make any statement before we call 
our first witness? 

Senator Langer. No, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, our associate counsel, will 
conduct the examinations today. Mr. Bobo had another assignment 
he had to begin this morning. 

Mr. Chumbris, who is our first witness? 

Mr. Chumbris. Samuel Roth. 

Chairman Kefai^ver. Mr. Koth, will you come around, sir? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, sir. 



Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, will you please state your name and 
address ? 

Mr. Roth. My name is Samuel Rotli. My address is 110 Lafayette 
Street, New York City. 

Mr. Chumbris. And what is your occupation ? 

Mr. Roth. I both write and publish books. 

Mr. Chumbris. For how long a period of time have you been 
writing and publishing books ^ 

Mr. Roth. About 38 years. 

Mr. Chumbris. How long have you been at that location at 110 
Lafayette Street ? 

Mr. Roth. About 5 years. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please state the names of some of the 
books that you publish ? 

Mr. Roth. Before I do I have two very short statements I wish 
to make to the committee that may save it a great deal of trouble and 
time. May I ? 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Roth. 

Mr. Roth. Thank you. 

Chairman Kefauver. Providing you will talk a little bit louder. 

Mr. Roth. During my brief appearance before this committee 
last year I read a statement written by my attorney, Mr. Nicholas 

Chairman Kefauver. What is his name? 

Mr. Roth. Nicholas Atlas. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. Roth. This statement apprised the committee that I was under 
indictment in two courts, and it cited a United States Supreme Court 
decision that in effect establishes the immunity of all evidence offered 
by a witness before a congressional committee from use in any action 
against him in anv other court. 

Upon my concluding the reading of the statement. Senator Hen- 
drickson accused me of pleading the fifth amendment. 

I want it to be establislied in the record that this is not so. I believe 
in the hfth amendment, but I know that it will be at least 50 years 
before an honest man will be able to plead it without being misunder- 

It is my stand before this committee that I have a right to the pro- 
tection granted me under the above-mentioned United States Supreme 
Court ruling, but that I will happily answer the questions of the com- 
mittee if I am ordered to do so. 

Chairman Kefauver. We are glad to have your statement, Mr. 

Mr. Roth. I have one more, and I wish to read that. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well, sir. 

Mr. Roth. If this committee is limited to an inquiry into the causes 
of juvenile delinquency in our midst, it is going far off its course in 
questioning me. With the single exception of a book of instruction 
for children, entitled "Tina and Jimmy Learn How They Were Born," 
written by my daughter for the instruction of her own children. I have 
never published or advertised a book an adolescent would bother to 

65203 — 55 13 


read. I have never offered books to juveniles, and refused to serve 
them whenever they were so identified in my mails. 

Sensational as my advertising appears to the eye, it can hardly be of 
interest to any but people sophisticated enough to resist my verbal 

I don't think this committee has reached the heart of the problem 
of juvenile delinquency. Father Egan only suggested it when he 
testified before this committee on its first hearings that there is no 
more smut in circulation today than in previous periods; it is just that 
the juveniles of our time have no respect for the religion of their 
elders. This goes to high office as well as to the home. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Roth ? 

Mr. Roth. Nothing else. Thank you. I am now ready to answer 

Chairman Kefauver. We are glad to have you make your state- 
ments. They will, of course, be printed in the record with the rest of 
your testimony. 

Mr. Roth. Thank you. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, where were you born, and when? 

Mr. Roth. I was born on November 17, 1894, in what is now Poland. 

Mr. Chumbris. When did you come to this country '. 

Mr. Roth. I came to this country in 1904. 

Mr. Chumbris. Where did you first reside in tlie United States ? 

Mr. Roth. I don't remember that. It was on Broome Street, 273 
Broome Street. 

Mr. Chumbris. New York City ? 

Mr. Roth. New York City. 

Mr. Chumbris. I understand you stated that you have been in this 
business about 38 years? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Mr. Chumbris. In the publishing business? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

^Ir. Chumbris. You are connected with certain companies that 
publislied such books as Gargantuan Books ; is that correct. 

Mr. Roth. That is not correct. Gargantuan Books is a trade name 
which I have used for distributing books for a period of 6 weeks. 

Mr. Chumbris. And are there any other such books that you have 
used as a trade name; would you please tell us? 

Mr. Roth. I can't remember them, but there are at least 15. 

Mr. Chumbris. And Seven Sirens Press ; is that one ? 

Mr. Roth. No. Seven Sirens Press is the mother corporation of 
all my activities. 

Mr. Chumbris. How about Gargoyle Books? 

Mr. Roth. That is a name. 

Mr. Chumbris. Book Gems? 

Mr. Roth. That is another name. 

Mr. Chumbris. Falstaff Books? 

Mr. Roth. That is another name. 

IVIr. Chumbris. Paragon Books? 

Mr. Roth. That, too. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you publish and edit Good Times? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. The American Aphrodite? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 


Mr. Chumbris. Beautiful Sinners of New York? 

Mr. EoTH. Yes, that is a past publication. 

Mr, Chumbris. Lila and Colette and the Isles of Love? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you distribute any nudist books? 

Mr. EoTH. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please name those ? 

Mr. RoTii. They are books whose names are really numbers. Their 
general title is "N. U. S.," and they are very beautiful nudes which 
come through the Customhouse and are sanctioned by the custom cen- 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you distribute "Nudist Colony" ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. That was one of the titles. 

Mr. Chumbris. Adult Companion? 

Mr. Roth. I don't — it is something that has to do with my busi- 
ness, but I do not remember whether it is a book or — oh, yes. Of 
course. It is a Treasury of Literature, edited by Tiffany Thayer. 

Mr. Chumbris. Bedside Treasure'^ 

Mr. Roth. That's another book exactly like that. 

Mr. Chumbris. Lady of the Sofa ? 

Mr. Roth. That's by Crabyon. That's one of my books. It is a 
great French classic. 

Mr. Chumbris. Nudes? 

Mr. Roth. That comes under N. U. S. I have never had the book 
called Nudes, as I remember it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Loves of the Orient ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes ; that's a book. 

Mr. Chumbris. Fiery French Nudes? 

Mr. Roth. No. It is the way I would adertise the book of nudes, 
but it is not the title of a book. 

Mr. Chumbris. The Nude in the 

Chairman Kefauver. Let's just see. Did you advertise the book 
tliat way ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. I think I remember advertising a book 
that way. 

Mr. Chumbris. The Nude in the French Theatre? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Strange — — 

Mr. Roth. That I should call your attention to it. The introduc- 
tion to it was by Anatole France, w^ho was a Nobel prize winner, 

Mr. Chumbris. Strange Loves? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. That's a regular — it is a book published by one 
or the other of the big publishers which I bought as a remainder. 

Mr. Chumbris. Red Light Babe? 

Mr. Roth. There you have got me. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Chumbris. You don't remember that one ? 

Mr. Roth. It sounds like a paper-covered book that I also bought 
as a remainder. 

Chairman Kefauver. What do vou mean "bought as a remainder," 
Mr. Roth? 

Mr. Roth. Most of my business is buying regular publishers' books 
that the publishers themselves — if publishers publish 5,000 books and 
sold only 4,000, he sells the remainder of the 1,000 to me as a remainder, 
and that makes it possible for me to make almost a publisher's profit. 


Mr. Chumbris. Her Candle Burns Hot? 

Mr. EoTH. That's tlte title of a book? If you say so, it would be 
one of those paper-covered books, but it would be a very hannless book 
if I sold it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Carnival of Passion ? 

Mr. EoTH. Yes ; that I remember. 

Mr. Chumbris. Women of Plentipunda ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. Thafs an adaptation of an old book. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, referring to the Women of Plentipunda, is 
that the same book which you described in this advertising, in these 
Tvords : 

Since adolescence represents an age, psychiatrists tell us, during which a 
youngster's normal sexual curiosity reaches a high point— 

Would it be fair to say that the kinds of materials you handle would 
be of particular interest in this age group ? 

Mr. Eoth. You begin by saying that you were reading something 
of mine ; yon wind up with something that doesn't sound like me. Is 
that a question you are asking me ? 

Mr. Chumbris. This is one of your advertisements on these particu- 
lar books— on this particular book The Women of Plentipunda. 

Mr. Roth. Did you read me my advertisement of it? 

Mv. Chumbris. Yes. 

Mr. Roth. I didn't recognize it. Would you please read it again? 

Mr. Chumbris. Is that the same book which you describe in this 
advertising in these words, and I quote : 

Since adolescence represents an age, psychiatrists tell us, during which a 
youngster's normal sexual curiosity reaches a high points 

would it be fair to say that the kinds of materials you handle would 
be of particular interest in this age group ? 

Mr. RoTPi. I would say not, because in the fii-st place the expression 
"Plentipunda" is a purely Indian one— it belongs to the Indian, to 
the religion of the Hindus. 

In the second place, if you have a page, any page of that book, as 
a matter of fact, it is a philosophically written book, a description of 
what might be considered a Utopia, a'Utopia that people imagine for 
themselves, but which is hardly described in that book in any lan- 
guage that could even be of the "faintest interest to children. 

Besides that, I can't be appealing to children because we advertise 
only in the most adult magazines. In the first circular that we send 
people we ask them for their age, and that is how our list is made up. 

The cheaj:»est book we sell is $1.98, and that very rarely — usually it 
is $2.98, and we can't expect children to pay us any prices like that ; and 
we Avouldn't sell them these books under the circumstances. 

We don't think that any — I don't think that any kind of a book 
written in adult fashion can possibly appeal to children. If there is 
anytliino- there that you think would appeal to children, I would 
like to hear it. 

Mr. Chumbris. I will hereby show you some advertising material 
that reached the hands of a minor. This advertising material, one is 
on the French Pornographer, Good Times, and The American Aphro- 
dite, which return address is Book Gems, 110 Lafayette Street, which 
vou testified are concerns with which you are connected. 


Will you please tell us, is this your type of advertising [handing 
to Mr. Roth] ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. I have already conceded that my type of adver- 
tising is very exciting, but anybody can see who has ever tried to read 
one of those books — you take for instance the book The French Por- 
nographer, you would find an adult under 30 who has not had a college 
education would find it difficult to go beyond the third page, or even 
beyond the first page. 

It is a very fine book ; it is a translation from the French. 

I deal almost exclusively in French classics. I could say that my 
exciting style of advertising is a net that I spread among people who 
have not had a chance for a very good education to get good books 
into their homes, and I am prepared to prove that almost every book, 
except those paper-covered books, which I do not consider harmful, 
are within the realm of either contemporary or modern classics, except 
those books, and most of the books that I advertise in my magazines 
are books more than 2,000 years old, books that have been classics for 
20 centuries. 

Now, do you want me to tell you about this? 

Chairman Kefatjv^r. Well, first, Mr. Roth 

Mr. Roth, I don't want to take up too much time. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is all of this material you have here, advertis- 
ing which you have sent out? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well. Let it be made 

Mr. Roth. Except for the sheet of written paper on top of it. The 
front there seems to be a letter sent to the committee by somebody. 

Mr. Chumbris. By the mother of a minor child. 

Mr. RarH. That was really what I should have answered first. 

Chairman Kefauver. It will be made an exhibit here and part of 
the record. 

(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 18." The advertise- 
ment is on file with the subcommittee. The letter accompanying the 
literature reads as follows:) 

This enclosed filth was sent to a IS-year-old boy from Gargoyle Books, 110 
Lafayette Street, New York 13, N. T. I think it's time something should be 
done about this contribution to juvenile delinquency. I intend to follow this 


Mr. Roth. I believe it got here by accident. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, you stated previously in answer to my 
question that you made sure that you asked the ages of persons to 
whom you sent your advertising and material. 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Mr, Chumbris. That particular letter did get to a minor; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, do you have name lists ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. How mau}^ names would you say are on your name 

Mr. Roth. At present they come to about 400,000. 

Mr. Chumbris. 400,000 ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Where do you receive those name lists ? 


Mr. Roth. Mainly from publications? 

Senator Langer. From what ? 

Mr. Roth. Mainly from publications. I, for instance, advertise 
by sending out lists like these to lawyers, doctors, dentists, bankers, 
responsible business people. There is no way in which I can help it 
if a child would grab his father's mail and put clown on it that he 
is 80 years old. How would I know ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. Roth, when you acquire these name lists 
from these various publications, what inquiry do you make as to 
whether the person is a minor or an adult ? 

Mr. Roth. Well, the first circular we send them we ask them to 
put down their age. I admit that they don't always do so; but we 
judge by the fact — in the first place, I wish to make this very, very 
emphatic — I don't believe this circular might excite the mind of an 
older person to want the book, which is what it is intended to do, would 
be of the fainest interest to a juvenile, because the words won't mean 
anything to him ; they are not written in his language. 

Senator Langer. What about the pictures ? Would they interest a 

Mr. Roth. They might. But they are always very beautiful pic- 
tures and within the law — entirely within the law. 

I believe I shall have to comment on that as the questions are 
asked me. 

Chainnan KErAu\TER. Mr. Roth, just out of some of our corre- 
spondence that we have received — and this is not all of it [exhibit- 
ing] — here is a letter from Mrs. Shuler in Davenport, Iowa, saying 
that this was received by her 8-year-old son — some of your advertis- 
ing [handing to Mr. Roth]. 

Here is a letter from Schoharie, N. Y., from Catherine S. Rickard: 

We received some objectionable literature, but from another company, Gargoyle 

It says : 

I am enclosin.::? the whole thing, and I was just fortunate to notice it before 
the children got a hold of it. 

Apparently this was addressed to her son. This is marked "Per- 

Mr. RoTir. Is the original envelope there? 
Chairman Kefauver. Yes ; it seems to be there. 
Mr. Roth. iNIay I see it ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes [handing to Mr. Roth] . 
Here is one to L. Mann, Lake Junaluska, N. C. : 

We have reason to believe this letter contains literature which should not 
be allowed to go through the mails. 

This was addressed to a child, age 17 : 

We do not know where she is so cannot forward this. Two years ago she left 

Anyway, it was sent to a young girl who was in camp [handing to 
Mr. Roth]. 

Here is one to a 15-year-old boy. Postmaster in Erie, Pa., sent this. 
This was sent to a 15-year-old boy, apparently. 

Here is one from Burlington, Iowa, in which a mother says it was 
sent to a juvenile — it does not give his age [handing to Mr. Roth]. 


Here is one that seems to have gotten to Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in 
some way [handing to Mr. Eoth] . 

Mrs. Garrett Wilson back in Ohio, who complained to her Congress- 
man about her children getting this thing here [handing to Mr. Koth] . 

Here is one from the president of a college at Columbus, Ohio, 
saying literature like this came to him and to others at the college 
[handing to Mr. Roth]. 

Here is one forwarded by a college president to Mrs. Oveta Hobby. 
She. in turn, sent it to us [handing to Mr. Eoth] . 

Mr. Roth, you say you make sure that none of your literature reaches 
the young people. What do you say about all of this ? 

]NIr. Roth. I would like to answer this. 

Chairman Kefauver. You identify these as being literature that 
you sent out ? 

Mr. RoTii. Yes; these were all things that were sent out by my 
office, under my general direction. 

Chairman Kefauver. By your various corporations or publications, 
or publishing companies? 

Mr. Eoth. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. They M'ill all be made exhibits, together with 
the accompanying letters, which speak for themselves. 

(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 19." The advertise- 
ments are on file with the subcommittee. The letters accompanying 
the literature read as follows :) 

We have reason to believe this letter contains literature which should not 
be allowed to go through the mails. Miss M. is a (age 17) young girl who at- 
tended our camp several years ago and we do not know where she is so cannot 
forward this. Two years ago after she left camp, similar mail came for her, 
unsealed, second class, which we did not forward when we found it contained 
obscene material. Please investigate. 


Burlington, Iowa, November 20, 1953. 
Postmaster General, 

Washinyton, D. C: 
Enclosed find literature that was mailed to my home. It was sent to my son 
who tore it up. Why are such vile pictui-es permitted to be sent through the mail? 
It is no wonder we have so many sex crimes and juvenile delinquency if this kind 
of literature can be had. I think it is a disgrace to all decency and I am very 
angry that my address is used for such a purpose. I think this firm should not 
be permitted to use the mail and that they should not be permitted to print such 
pictures. I hope that you can do something to stop them. 
Sincerely yours, 

Mrs. E. B. 

Davenport, Iowa, Octohei- 28, 1958. 
Postmaster General, 

Washington, D. C. 
Dear Sir : Enclosed please find an advertisement that was sent to my 18-year- 
old son. He is now in college and this was forwarded but it is evident that these 
are being sent to boys in preparatory schools. 

We are always hearing that the Postal Department is run at a loss and rates 
should be raised. I resent very much paying taxes to pay my postman to deliver 
this type of thing. I have always understood that there was a law about the 
type of literature that could be sent through the mail. 

I should appreciate a statement from you as to the legality of this publication. 
Very truly yours, 

Mrs. C. S., Jr. 


Schoharie, N. Y., November 20, 1953. 
Post Office Inspector, 

Washington, D. C. 
Dear Mr. Simon : Again we received some objectionable literature, but from 
another company: Gargoyle Books, 110 Lafayette Street (8th floor). New York, 
N. Y. I'm enclosing the whole thing, and I was just fortunate to notice it before 
the children got a hold of it. 

Is there any way we can find out where they obtain my husband's address? 
Could such a practice be abolished — especially for such obscene material? 

Thank you very much for your previous investigation, and for anything you 
do this time. 

Sincerely yours, 

C. S. R. 

CoRVALLis, Oreg., June 12, 1953. 
Mrs. OvETA CtXLP Hobby : 

It is, to the best of my knowledge, that you are in the position of doing what you 
can for the welfare of our country. This is a problem that I wish could be solved. 
I live in a college town and for years these obscene ads have been coming to our 
students. I feel it is one of the worst demoralizing influences we have to bring 
our Nation low. 

I have no idea if or how anything can be done about it. 

The envelopes are marked "Personal." The P.' O.'s are strewn with them. 
Students are curious and make good bait. 

Thank vou. 

C. D. 

Ck)LUMBUS, Ohio, October 9, 1953. 
Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, 

Director, FBI, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Mr. Hoover : Isn't there some way to stop such filth as the enclosed, from 
coming to decent people through the United States mail? 

This is the worst that I have ever seen and one of our graduate students who 
is helping out in the ofiice was so shocked at this awful stuff that she insisted I 
write you at once about it. 
Very truly yours, 

G. S. R. 

Mr. Roth. May I continue, please? 

Chairman Kef AuvER. Yes; yon may continue. 

Mr. Roth. Thank you. 

You will notice that a few of these in which the original envelope is 
offered, the addresses are not on stencils. This one [indicating] is not 
on a stencil ; this one is not on a stencil ; and those are where the orig- 
inal envelope has not been received ; they are probably names of people 
who were addressed through the telephone directories, w^hich is why 
their first name is "Dr. So-and-So." That covers the letter which 
reached Mr. Hoover — J. Edgar Hoover — and it covers another letter 
that I heard you say had been sent in by a doctor. 

Chairman Kefauver, Apparently these are written out and copies 
are made, and then the name and address is just cut off with a scissors 
and pasted on. 

Mr. Roth. Yes, I realize that. But I want to explain what this 
means, this little thing [exhibiting]. It means that these people on 
the list, which another company addressed for me, and in which I got 
the best assurance you can possibly get from people you do business 
with, that they were not going to minors; and these hajDpened to be 

There is no point in my disputing that, when my real point is that 
if they reached minors they couldn't possibly have any bad influence 


on them, and they would disreo;ard them. They wouhl disregard 
them because the language which my circulars are written in may 
mean something to a Senator, may mean something to a mature adult, 
but cannot mean anything to a boy or a girl. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr, lioth, do you mean to say that these pictures 
that are present on this folder [exhibiting] will not excite a minor 
if it gets into his hands? Won't you take a good look at those [hand- 
ing to Mr. Roth] ? 

]\Ir. Roth. When you put these pictures against the battery of 
females that any child sees on any morning in a ride through the 
subway, in a walk through a street, this is ridiculous as an argument 
against my business. These are 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rotli, just a minute. 

Mr, Roth. Forgive me, I shouldn't have said that at all. I am 

Chairman Kefauver. You have a pamphlet there with nude fe- 
males in various positions, and some of them with nude males, ap- 
parently. You are comparing those with what you see when you ride 
on a subway ? 

Mr, Roth, Yes. It is not unusual to see a man with his arm 
around a woman wdio is naked up to here [indicating], and if the 
child wants to play around with that kind of an image it can very well 
imagine the rest of the body to be as naked as the upper part of it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rotli, if this won't excite children • 

Mr. Roth. I don't think so. 

Chairman Kefauver, Children are more easily excited than adults. 

Mr, Roth. Look at this. This is a cartoon, and it is a cartoon that 
can hardly give anybody pleasure in looking at it, 

Mr, Chumbris, Why do you spend so much money putting these 
photos on that advertisement if it does not excite the men that you 
hope to sell the books to ? 

Mr, Roth. I beg your pardon ; I didn't say that. I said that I do 
hope to excite the men into buying these good books. 

Mr. Chumbris. Why doesn't it excite the children then ? 

Mr. Roth. Because children's minds are different. They are prob- 
ably better than the minds of mature people in that respect, A child 
3'^ou have got to tell, to give a real image, or the child just disregards 

Chairman Kefauver, You think men, then, are more susceptible 
to harm from pornography, or lewd pictures, than children, 

Mr, Roth. I don't consider these lewd pictures by any means. 

Chairman Kefauver, Wliatever they are, you think men are more 
susce^Ttible to being affected by them than children are? 

Mr. Roth. I tliink that is a matter of course. Their business is — 
they have more business in the relations with women than children 
have. Children don't know^ anything about it as yet, mostly. 

There is nothing in these pictures that I would say was in any way 
]ewd or indecent. And certainly nothing that would be new to chil- 
dren whose eyes are wide open wherever they walk. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr, Roth, have you ever received a letter from a 
minor with a high-school address on it ? 

Mr. Roth. I know that we received such mail. My orders to the 
people who — you know that I don't fill the orders, or open them ; but 


my orders are strictly not to pay any attention to such an address. 
And when money is enclosed, we return it, either by cash or by check. 
1 think usually by check. 

Mr. Chumbris. But you stated a while ago that you buy name lists 
from other groups ; is that correct ? 

Mr, Roth. No; I don't buy them; I rent them. I am not there 
when they are addressed. 

Mr. Chumbris. And the name lists that you buy or rent are some- 
times on a name plate, just a small little plate; is that correct? 

Mr. EoTH. I wouldn't say that that's always so. These happened 
to be, I believe these were on these gum paper labels. 

Mr. Chumbris. That's right. And otliers are on mineographed 
sheets ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Roth. They have every way of addressing them that I have. 

Mr. Chumbris. Then when you Iniy or rent those name lists you do 
not have the slightest idea whether the person from whom you pur- 
chased that name list has a list of minors or adults, do you ? 

Mr. Roth. I have the assurance that they are only adults ; be- 
cause I do not like to spend postage on addressing children. 

Mr. Chumbris. How did all of these exhibits — and we are just 
giving you a portion of what came into our office — how did you 

Mr. Roth. Have you any idea of how much mail that represents? 
That i^robably represents 10 million pieces of mail, and you have got 
about 20 or 30 pieces here, culled over a great many years. Why do 
you think that is representative of my business ? 

Chairman Kefalh'er. Mr. Roth. I think as to your point, the staff 
tells me that we have literally a file cabinet full of your mail which has 
been sent in from all over the country. I do not believe I have shown 
you all of what we have here. 

Here is another one sent to the Postmaster General. This was sent 
to a 15-year-old boy, Gargoyle Books. 

Now I want to ask you, Mr. Roth, you said that you put on these 
things that they were not supposed to be sent back or ordered by 
minors. I have not been able to find that on any piece of this litera- 

Mr. Roth. I didn't get that last part. 

Chairman Kefauver. You said that your instructions on these 
pieces of advertising made it plain that minors could not order it, that 
only adults would be permitted to order it from these pamphlets. 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman Kefau^-er. I have not been able to find that on any of 
these pieces of literature. 

Mr. Roth. Well, that's not something I know how to explain. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are the boss of the business ? 

]\Ir. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman KEFAU^T>R. Why did you tell us a little while ago 

Mr. Roth. They were not sent in, though. 

Chairman Kefauver. But, ]Mr. Roth, I want to get this straight. 
You said in the beginning in one of your statements that this was 
not any business of this subcommittee, handling juvenile — what you 
were doing was no business of this subcommittee, because, in the first 
place, you did not send the advertisements to minors, and, in the 
second place, it was definite that they were required to give their 


age, and if it appeared that they were a minor, the orders would not 
be fulfilled. 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman IvEFAtn^ER. Where on any of this literature do you ask 
anyone's age [handing to Mr. Roth] ? 

Mr. Roth. The first circular which I send to a person who has sent 
in an order, say through a magazine or through the mails, probably 
has never been sent in. 

I wish to remind you again that these pieces are the results of 
millions of pieces of mail that have gone out in the last few years. 

Chairman KeTxYuv^er. Mr. Roth, we have, I think, a cross-section 
of all the kinds you have sent out, and my staff tells me they find no 
inquiry about the age on any of them. 

Mr. Roth. That is my point, that these are never sent in ; these are 
sent in to us, and the complaints come on those that come later. 
That's the only way I can explain it. I am not making a perfect 
explanation, because there is no perfect explanation. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, you have a briefcase there. Do 
you find any in your briefcase that inquire the age of the person ? 

Mr. Roth. I have none here. I have brought nothing with me. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have no copy with you? 

]\Ir. Roth. No. And I wish to say we are in the process of wind- 
ing up our business. I don't know whether any of these circulars 
show it, but the last circular we sent out we announced that that was 
the third of the last six announcements we are making, and so we are 
not using those lists any more. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, the staff using Eastern High School sta- 
tionery in Washington, D. C, sent out letters to persons dealing in 
publications such as yours, pictures, and not only did they receive a 
reply from those people to whom the letters were directed, but within 
a month, 5 or 6 companies dealing in the type of material in which 
3^ou deal, and pictures, bondage pictures, and fetish pictures, and 
nudes, and so forth, reached our office although no letter was directed 
to those companies. 

Now, how would you explain how your office got answers from 
people to w^hom letters were not directed ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, you have not made clear what 
you are trying to get at. 

Mr. Chumbris. I have made a statement, and I want him to explain 
the statement. 

Chairman Kefauver. What he means is that on high-school sta- 
tionery inquiries have been sent to other companies. Shortly after 
they are sent to other companies, your companies write these people 
who made the inquiry, the children who made the inquiries. 

Mr. Roth. I can answer that fully and very briefly. 

Chairman Kefauver. In other words, you exchange lists? 

Mr. Roth. We do not. 

Chairman Kefauver. That puts you on notice that these inquiries 
were from children, but shortly after the inquiries are made of other 
companies, your companies get the list and send them literature. 

Mr. Roth. Oh, that happens; yes. That can happen. 

In the first place, I want to say, w-hen you talk about companies like 
mine, I want to correct that. There isn't a company like mine. My 
business is unique, there is nothing like it in the world. No. 1. 


No. 2, we have consistently in all our experience refused to rent 9ut 
our lists, except to legitimate enterprises, like insurance companies, 
Life, Esquire, Time, all the big magazines. 

We have been offered as much as $30 a thousand, which is twice as 
much as the regular rate, for people, such as some of your other wit- 
nesses here, to use our lists. We have never, never, allowed anyone 
but a legitimate enterprise to use our lists, and that we have kept 
down to a certain number. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, you just stated that there is no other 
business in the countrv like yours. 

Mr. Roth. That's right. . 

Mr. Chumbris. You stated a while ago that you are connected with 
Gargoyle Sales Corp. 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Mv. Chumbris. I hereby show you an exhibit of advertisement of 
girls being whipped, or what is known as fetish and bondage pictures, 
which is a type of photograph and material sent out by another com- 
pany here in New i'ork City. I would like for you to look at that 
[handing to witness]. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you identify that as being some ot the 
literature that your company has sent out ? 

Mr. Roth. Oh, no. That's an entirely different company; it has 
nothing to do with me. 

Mr. Chumbris. You just stated that Gargoyle Sales 

Mr. Roth. I had a company called Gargoyle Books. This is Gar- 
goyle Sales Corp. It hasn't the remotest connection with me. And 
I would like to see all the others that you think are like my business 
[returning to Mr. Chumbris] . 

Mr. Chumbris. I read you the name of Gargoyle Sales Corp., and 
you said it was your company. 

Mr. Roth. One thing to answer as honestly as I could, and hearing 
"Gargoyle," which is a part of the name — I never heard of this 

Mr. Chumbris. This particular company is not one of your com- 

Mr. Roth. I never heard of the name before. 

Mr. Chumbris. But the others that we have shown you. Good Times, 
and so forth. The American 

Mr. Roth. These are my circulars and my business. I stand for 
them, and I do not believe that anyone under 25 could possibly be 
influenced ; and if they were influenced, it would be for the good. 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't think anyone under 25 could be 
influenced for the bad from these ? 

Mr. Roth. What would be bad ? The worst they could do is buy the 
book, and the books are 

Chairman KEFAU^^2R. Let me get this again. Wliat did you say 
about 25 , a minute ago, that you did not believe anyone under 25 or over 
25 would be influenced for the bad ? 

Mr. Roth. I believe that very few people — it's very difficult to 
talk in a generality like under 25, over 25 — very few people who 
haven't had a certain amount of experience would be attracted by this 
sophisticated language with which we sell this. 

We don't — I haven't, for instance, read that circular, I never saw 
it, and I never saw the name before, but I would be willing to bet 


that that would prove my case. This is how they sell, and this is how 
I sell. , ^ 

I sell only fine books. The biggest seller on my list m the last 4 
years has been a book called "My sister and I" by Frederick Weacher, 
and that is a philosophical book. I have been able to get that in 
almost 100,000 homes, and that is a triumph. I don't expect any medals 
for it, but I don't expect to be called a publisher of pornographic 

Chairman Kefauver. Of course the thing is not the reading ma- 
terial on these things so much as the pictures that you have sent around. 

Mr. EoTH. I disagree with you, Mr. Kefauver; I really do not 
agree with that. 

Chairman Kefauver. If pictures do not make any difference, why 
do you put so many pictures on them ? 

Mr. Roth. I am a salesman. I remember once going into a haber- 
dashery shop and asking to buy a shirt I saw in the window, and what 
Vv'as shown me didn't look at all like it. 

I said, "Is that the same shirt I saw in the window ?" 

The man said, "Yes, Mister, but I spend a lot of money on the lights 
in my window, and I can't expect an ordinary shirt to look like that." 

If I do it with good books, I don't think that could be held against 

Mr. Chumbris. ]\Ir. Roth, you have not yet fully explained your 
role in avoiding sending that particular type of advertisement ta 

Mr. Roth. To young people, you mean ? 

Mr. Chumbris. In view of the fact that you buy, rent, exchange, or 
what have you, mailing lists with other concerns. 

Mr. Roth. But I have just told you that I don't. 

Mr. Chumbris. What is that? 

Mr. Roth. I have just told you that I do not rent my lists to anyone 
except people like Life, Time, Esquire; these people rent my lists 2 
or 3 times a year because mine are adult buyers and can subscribe to a 

Mr. Chumbris. Don't you rent lists from a party in Brooklyn ? 

Mr. Roth. "From," but not "to." That's the difference. 

Mr. Chumbris. That is what I am referring to. If you are renting 
from a party, and you do not make a clear and direct analysis of the 
ages of that name list, then j^our material could get to juveniles, could 
it not? 

Mr. Roth. I believe that in that respect my business could be rein- 
forced a little bit by greater care. I admit that ; but I am always given 
the assurance that the people who bought these things spent, at least 
$1.98, and that they were mature people. That's the best I can do at 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, now, how many lists do you buy, how 
many thousands of names on them ? 

Mr. Roth. Well, now, a company in Brooklyn was mentioned from 
whom I bought approximately 180,000 names, which dwindled down 
to about 70,000. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you like to give his name, please, for the 
record ? 

Mr. Roth. I don't know whether I should. I don't know whether I 
shouldn't, because I was assured that these were names of people who 


bought pinups. Now, pinups, I do not consider them as obscene mat- 
ter. I consider them a little like the things I myself use. 

Chairman Kefauver. In other words, you have a pmup mailing 
list to send your literature? 

Mr. KoTH. That's right ; yes. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Mr. Chumbris, you know the name of the man 
in Brooklyn ; you give it to us. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Vallon; is that right? 

Mr. RoTii. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Will you give the full name and address? 

Mr. Roth. I have his full name and his address in my books, but I 
don't remember it. I think, if you have difficulty finding his name m 
the Brooklyn directory, his business goes under the name of Mapleton 
Books, Mapleton something-or-other. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anyway, Mr. Vallon has a pmup list of about 
180,000 names to which he sends pinup materials ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. You rented his list to send out this literature ? 

Mr. Roth. That list I bought. I didn't rent it. But we dwindled 
it down to about 70,000. 

Chairman Kefauver. Suppose we question the other list that you 

bought? . 

Mr. Roth. That's the only list that I have ever bought m my lite. 

Chairman Kefauver. What other lists have you rented? 

Mr Roth. I have rented lists from a regular list house called Book 
Buyers Lists. That's what it is called. That's on 369 Broadway. 
They are a very legitimate and fine enterprise. 

Chairman Kefauver. What do you do to get the names of the 
juveniles out of them ? It would seem that when you see a high school 
and when you see the account down in North Carolina, you would 
know that that was a juvenile. 

Mr. Roth. We would know that. I would mention this, although 
I do not hold it against these people, because they have a very heavy 
business, but I do not mail out, they mail out for me. I pay for the 
postage— no, no, forgive me. I do mail that out, but it is very diffi- 
enlt to— if I make a mailing, say, of 10,000, it is very difficult to go 
through and try to catch that. 

I should say that we are supported by the feeling that we are not 
selling them anything bad, that's all. But we have had an under- 
standing in advance that we do not contain the names of juveniles. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, do you think it would be bad and 
deleterious for the children for you to mail this stuff to the children? 

Mr. Roth. It would be very bad business for me, I can tell you. 

Chairman Kefauver. I mean, it would be bad for them, too, would 
it not ? 

Mr. Roth. I don't think they would pay any attention to it. I give 
you my word of honor. 

I have brought up a family. I have grandchildren, and my grand- 
children occasionally come to see me. They look at these things and 
they drop them. 

I can't see — an adult would be interested — but I cannot see how 
children would be interested. 

Chairman Kefau\'ER. And you think an adult would pay more at- 
tention to them than children would? 


Mr Roth. They do pay attention, or I wouldn't be in business. 

Senator Langer. Mr. Chairman, I call attention to the fact that 
a few moments ago the witness stated that he had sent out 10 million. 
It is curious where he got all the 10 million names. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that the number you sent out— m how long 

a period of time? „ , ^ , • j 

Mr. Roth. No, I meant that these were culled from a long period 

of my business, and that in that period I have sent out over 10 million 

^ That's a guess, by the way, the 10 million. It could be 20 million 
and it might be only 5. I think it would be around 10 million, because 
mv instincts in such matters are good. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let's follow Senator Langer s question. 

Where did you get a mailing list for 10 million^ 

Mr. Roth. I haven't a mailing list for 10 million, but I have, say, 
a mailing list for only 10,000 in 10 years I could send it out 10 mil- 
lion times— I mean, I could send out to 10 million people. It wasn't 
intended to be a single mailing. 

I don't think anybody in the United States since the Literary 
Digest died, has sent out as many as 10 million pieces of mail. 

Senator Langer. A moment ago you said you had 400,000 names, did 
you not, Mr. Witness ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. That's very far from 10 million. 

Chairman Kefauver. What mailing permit do you have to send 
these through the mails ? 

Mr. Roth. I have the regular Pitney Bowes machine permit. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that second-class 'I 

Mr, Roth. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Second-class permit? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

May I mention one more thing? 

Chairman Kefauver. Have you had any trouble with the Post 
Office Department ? 

Mr. Roth. Oh, lots of trouble. 

We have a sign in our door that has been there ever since I can 
remember, maybe 18 years. It has been on different doors, of course, 
and the sign says "No books sold on the premises." No book goes out 
which hasn't got on it the post office's permission to open it and 
examine it. 

Mr. CiiuMBRis. A moment ago you said you had plenty of trouble 
with the Post Office Department, but you always worked it out. That 
is not exactly true, is it ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes ; the post office accuses me of having sent an obscene 
book through the mails, such as Beautiful Sinners of New York, and 
it is put before a jury, and the jury comes back a few minutes later 
and sees nothing wrong with it. I have straightened it out with the 
post office. 

Mr. Chumbris. Have you ever been convicted of a violation of a 
post office regulation? 

Mr. Roth. Yes; for selling Ulysses, by James Joyce, which is now 
must reading in all colleges and high schools. Not all of them, but 
enough of them. 

Mr. Chumbris. When was that? 

Mr. Roth. I think 1929. 


Mr. Chumbris. Aiid then, in 1930, you were also convicted of viola- 
tions ? 

Mr. Roth. Whenever I was convicted of a violation of a book that 

1 sent through the mails I believed it was safe to send it. There are 
differences of opinion on that, yes; usually I go to jail, and then the 
laws confirm my being right. 

Mr. Chumbris. In 1936, would you please explain whether you had 
any difficulty with the law ? 

Mr. Roth. I had a great deal of difficulty. I went to prison that 

Mr. Chumbris. Explain it, please. 

Mr. Roth. It involved about seven books which the post office con- 
sidered obscene. 

Mr. Chumbris. Did you go to prison for that ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right ; I just told you that. 

Chairman Kefauver. How long did you serve ? 

Mr. Roth. I served a 3-year sentence. 

Mr. Chumbris. In 1941, did you have any trouble with the law? 

Mr. Roth. Yes; you have the record there. You tell me. 

Mr. Chumbris. April 14, 1941, you were found guilty of violating 
probation, is that correct; and your probation was extended to Decem- 
ber 16, 1946 ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. May I say something now ? The district attorney 
in charge of that case opened the case against me — I was really not 
convicted there. The judge dismissed it. He opened the case by say- 
ing, "This defendant is not being accused of selling any book which 
cannot be found in any bookstore in the United States. We just don't 
like a man on parole to sell these books." 

Mr. Chumbris. Your statement that you had difficulty with the 
Post Office Department, but you always worked it out, wasn't exactly 
true, was it? 

Mr. Roth. Well, I worked it out even when I went to prison. You 
must try it sometime. 

Mr. Chumbris. That gives a different connotation than "working 
it out." 

Mr. Roth. I mean that eventually the laws almost always justified 
what I had done. For instance, there was a time when you could go 
to prison for just a picture like this. Now you find — I would like to 
read you a list of the magazines that publish nudes almost all the time. 

Chairman Kefauver. Before you get to that list — you have quite a 
record here of arrests, and being in court, and you and your wife to- 
gether, usually. 

Mr. Rom. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have your wife in all of these matters? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. She has been convicted, too; is that correct? 

Mr.RoTH. The only thing I can tell you is that we were right. 

Chairman Kefau^t^r. Sit down, Mr. Roth. 

On December 16, apparently you and your wife got convicted for 

2 years, and she got a suspended sentence; is that right? 
"Slv. Roth. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, you have this entire history 
here. Do you want to go over it, or do you want to show it to Mr. 
Roth ? 


Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, on February 27, 1928, you pleaded guilty 
to mailing obscene literature, and were fined $500 and given 6 months' 
suspended sentence; is that correct? 

Mr. Roth. That is correct. Would you like me to explain it? 

Mr. Chumbris. Let me go through this. 

Chairman Kefauver. Give him a right to explain. You plead 
guilty ? 

Mr. RoTii. I plead guilty after a conference with Judge Knox. I 
pointed out the book was a Hindu classic, and it should be permitted 
to be sold at the price which I sold it for, which was $35 a copy. 

Chairman Kefauver. What did you plead guilty for? 

Mr. Roth. On the advice of counsel — very bad advice, 

Mr. Chumbris. On October 19, 1928, sentenced to serve 3 months 
on Welfare Island for possessing and selling obscene books. 

Mr. Roth. That is correct. It was a book which I have since sold 
freely and through the post office for a great many years. 

Mr. Chumbris. Did you plead guilty, or were you convicted ? 

Mr. Roth. I was convicted of that in special sessions. 

Mr. Chumbris. November 27, 1929, arrested for possession and sale 
of obscene literature ; case dismissed. Was that correct ? 

Mr. Roth. I don't see why I have to argue with that. Go on. 

Mr. Chumbris. January 28, 1930, sentenced to 6 months in Federal 
Detention House for violation of probation ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Roth, Yes; that is correct. I didn't consider it a violation of 
probation, and I think the judge who kept the case — Judge Knox — 
who kept the case running for 3 years, didn't either, except he finally 
decided it was better to let me serve a sentence. I didn't serve 6 
months. He changed it to 2 months at the last minute. 

Mr. Chumbris. July 7, 1930, sentenced to serve 60 days for the sale 
and possession of obscene books. Where was that ? 

Mr. Roth. I know where that was. That was Philadelphia, and 
that was for protecting Ulysses so my grandchildren and your grand- 
children will be able to read that book. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you plead guilty? 

Mr. Roth. I did plead guilty. Mr. Kefauver, I was threatened by 
the man who ruled Philadelphia if I dared stand trial on that book, 
he would see that I got at least 3 years. I have witnesses to that. 

Chairman Kefauver. You pled guilty ? 

Mr. Roth. I had to plead guilty. 

Mr. Chumbris. December 16, 1936, sentenced to 3 years in Lewisburg 
Penitentiary for mailing obscene literature, 

Mr. Roth. You covered that. 

Mr. Chumbris. April 14, 1941, found guilty of violating probation; 
probation extended to December 16, 1946. 

Mr. Roth. I have already covered that. 

Mr. Chumbris. Then recently, last year, you had some difficulty with 
the State authorities on obscene literature; is that correct? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. Have you on the record what happened 
on that? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes; I think last week the matter was thrown out 
of court for illegal search and seizure ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Roth. Not only that, but because they picked up 70,000 books 
on my premises and didn't find a single bad one there, and there were 
none, and they are all being returned to me. 

G52G3— 55 14 


Mr. Chumbris. Was there any official ruling to that effect? 

Mr. Roth. No; but I have no doubt that the official ruling will 
be made some day, maybe today. 

Mr, Chumbris. As a matter of fact, they didn't even go into the 
contents of the book; they only went into the question of whether 
the search was legal or illegal ? 

Mr. Roth. That is true, but I do know they went into the books. 

Chairman Kefauver. The Post Office Department issued fraudu- 
lent orders against trade styles used by you back in 1942? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. What does that mean ? 

Mr. Roth. "Fraud'' in the language of the post office means almost 
anything except fraud, but it meant in my case that I had described 
books as very sexy, which they didn't think sexy at all. That is the 
whole thing. 

Chairman Kefauver. You overstated the sex angle in your books ? 

Mr. Roth. That is it. I admitted that, but I thought I had a right 
to since it got good books into the hands of people who otherwise 
wouldn't have gotten them. 

Chairman Kefauvt.r. I don't understand, Mr. Roth, why it is that 
you have a great number of corporations. I have never seen such 
a list. Did you operate through one at one time and another one 
at another time ? Why is that ? 

Mr. Roth. It is for reasons that anyone in the publishing busi- 
ness can explain. I am not the only such publisher. I sell philosoph- 
ical books — and for every kind I have, I have a different name. 

Chairman Kefauver. For each book you have a different corpora- 
tion i 

Mr. Roth. Every kind of book. 

Chairman Kefauver. Isn't the real idea that if one gets knocked 
off by the postal authorities, you can continue to operate your other 
corporations ^ 

Mr. Roth. That's right. Not only that. If there is any implica- 
tion in that that I do that to hide myself, that isn't true. I do not 
change my address, 110 Lafayette Street. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have one corporation publishing 5 or 6 
different types of books, and if one was found in violation of postal 
operations, they might stop your whole business? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. So you have all these various corporations? 

Mr. Roth. Not only for that. 

Chairman Kefauver. It enables you to send out literature in dif- 
ferent names to prospective purchasers ? 

Mr. Roth. My prospective purchasers know when they come from 
tlie 8th floor at 110 Lafayette Street, that we are the people from 
whom they bought in the past. 

Cliairman KEFAu^'ER. Do you think the children know that? 

Mr. Roth. I don't think the children care. I don't think it is part 
of that thing. I think you pay too much attention to that, and there- 
fore, do not pay attention to things that are more vital. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is what this committee is organized 
for — to see what the children are getting. 

For some reason, Mr. Roth, there has been a very sharp increase, 
over 110 percent in the last 10 years of sex crimes among juveniles. 


You see about it in tlie papers, and we had always been taught, at 
least we thought, that there was something to the fact that children 
the atmosphere, environment, and the kind of things they read affected 
them. Psychiatrists and parents have told us, and have written us 
that the smutty literature and pamphlets we see here that you are 
sending out, do not have a very wholesome effect on young people. 
Don't you think that is true ? 

Mr. EoTH. No. I don't believe any circulars like this. 

Chairman Kefauver. Why is it you have been so careful — or rather 
you think you have been careful not to send this to young people 'i 

Mr. Roth. The only reason why I have been careful mostly, I do 
not believe this can possibly touch the psychology of a juvenile, but 
mostly I have been careful because it would be very bad business to 
send out circulars and get no returns. You can only get returns 
from mature people. I am quite candid in telling you that. I think 
that the idea that the present juvenile delinquency comes of por- 
nographic literature, I think it slightly wrong. I was a child myself 
in the public schools of New York. 

Chairman IvEFAUATiR. You think that is overrated ? 

Mr. Roth. I think it is very much overrated. 

Chairman Kefauver. You naturally think it is overrated since 
that is your business ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes; I admit I could be prejudiced by that. 

Chairman Ivefauver. You would be reluctant to admit that your 
business was doing very much to adversely affect juveniles, but you 
are in the business. 

Mr. RoTii. I am in the business, and occasionally circulars of mine 
might reach juveniles, but I do not think that I could have any possible 
effect on that, and I do not believe that the very worst kinds of these 
things can be avoided, because they are underground. They do not 
send out mail the way I do. They reach children the way they 
reach children when I was a child. They come to you in front of 
school, and offer you an obscene pamphlet. 

Chairman Kefauver. I don't want to labor the point. You don't 
think it is too bad for children, your type of literature, although you 
claimed at first you have taken unusual precaution about young- 
people getting it. You wouldn't put your judgment up against that 
of J. Edgar Hoover, would you ? 

Mr. Roth. I don't know about that. If Mr. Hoover made a study 
of this, he would know more than I do. 

Chairman Kefauver. If Mr. Hoover said that it was degrading 
and increased criminal tendencies, and was one of the real evil influ- 
ences leading to juvenile delincjuency, you would rather have his judg- 
ment than yours ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, but I don't believe he had tliese circulars in mind. 

Chairman Kefauver. He talked about this kind of literature, too. 
I read his statement into the record the first day here. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, what is your gross income from your op- 
erations in these books that we are discussing here this morning? 

Mr. Roth. It is around $260,000, $270,000 a year. 

Mr. Chumbris. What is the net profit that you receive from that 
gross income ? 

Mr. Roth. I can put it to you this way : I get a salary of $10,000 a 
year, my wife gets a salary of $3,000 a year, and at the end of the year, 


we have never yet had so much money left that I could withdraw and 
call it a profit. My books are open. We do, I think, very well, be- 
cause our ap])etites are not too great. 

Mr. Chumbris. I didn't hear that last statement. 

Mr. Roth. I said we do pretty well, living as we do in our com- 
munity, and I am satisfied with what I do. 

Mr. Chumbris. Of the $260,000 to $270,000 gross, you say that you 
receive $10,000 a year and your wife receive $3,000 salary ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you have very little to share as profit ? 

Mr. Roth. At the end of the year, yes. We have never done it yet. 

Mr. Chumbris. How many people do you employ ? 

Mr. Roth. I would say we employ an average of about 15 people. 

Mr. Chumbris. Fifteen people ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. At 110 Lafayette Street? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Mr. Chumbris. ^Vliat are their duties mostly ? 

Mr. Roth, They are writers, they are file clerks, they are typists, 
they are editors. I believe that about covers it. Shipping clerks, of 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any persons who print any of these 
so-called 2-by-4 booklets? 

Mr. RoTii, We have never printed any 2 by 4 booklets. 

Mr. Chumbris. Have you or any of your employees made any of the 
cartoons that go into these 2-by-4 Jbooklets? 

Mr. Roth. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. How much is your subscription to all your 
books and magazines each year — about $400,000 ? 

]Mr. Roth. I have been asked the gross income. The gross income 
is around $260,000, $270,000. 

Chairman Kefaitv'er. Do you have agents out on the road ? 

Mr. Roth. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you send all these books by mail ? 

JVIr. Roth. We solicit by mail and fill orders by them. 

Chairman KEFAU^^ER. You don't send by mail? 

Mr. Roth. None. 

Chairman Kefauver. Have you ever sent by car or Railway 
Express ? 

Mr. Roth. Never. 

Chairman Kefauver. Always by mail? 

Mr. Roth. Railway Express, we mail occasionally ; when a man tells 
us he has no post office near him, but there is a Railway Express office, 
then we make hiin pay the extra cartage. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else? 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have a complete list of the names and ad- 
dresses of your employees? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please furnish them to the subcom- 
mittee ? 

Mr. Roth. I will be very happy to. 

Chairman Kefauver. For the record, when will you send that in, 
Mr. Roth? 

Mr. Roth. If you want, I will send that in this afternoon. 


Chairman Kefauver. Anything else? 

Mr. Eoth, do you try to get contracts with people so you can have 
publishers write' their life and experiences about them ? 

Mr. Eoth. No. We are asked to, and we do not have anythnig to 
do with that. 

Chairman Kefauver. Were you president ot beven birens Fress, 

Inc. ? 

Mr. Roth. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you explain what this seems to be on 
the letterhead of your corporation 'I -, . ^ ^ 

Mr. Roth. Yes; I will be very glad to. At the end ot the hrst 
Jelke trial, I contacted the woman known as Pat Ward, and oli'ered 
her this contract for a book. If you meant this kind of a contract, 
we offer it to people whose books miffht interest us. This contract 
was never signed by Miss Ward, or, I know, by anybody else. 

Chairman Kefau\ter. If you are dealing in abstracts, and heroes 
over in Europe, and metaphysical characters, why do you want to 
get a contract with Pat Ward right after the first Jelke trial? 

Mr. Roth. I believe a very fine book can be made on that. By the 
way, there is one in the making anyway. 

Chairman Kefauver. You didn't get the contract ? 

Mr. Roth. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. She turned you down ? 

Mr. Roth. She wanted too much money. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is that ? 

Mr. Roth. She wanted too much money. 

Chairman Kefauver. Any way, you tried to negotiate for a 

contract ? 

Mr. Roth. Yes ; the book was to have been written by a very fine 
writer and was to have been a very fine book. 

Chairman Kefauver. Why would you like to have a book about 
a person who had just been in a notorious trial? 

Mr. Roth. I believe the New Testament rotates around just that 
kind of a woman. 

Chairman Kefau\tsr. In this contract, you were going to do the 
dictating, and she was going to attach the name of Sandra to the 

Mr. Roth. I don't remember that as a detail, but it you say so, 

that is true. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you propose contracts like this to other 
people who claim notoriety in these kinds of trials ? 

I^Ir. Roth. I believe that if a book like that has been published by 
me. and it is possible, that it has usually been planned in my office, 
and if it hasn't, it has usually been brought to me, but whether it is 
planned or brought, or whether I write it or it is written by the person 
himself, or herself, it has to be a good book before I publish it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Paragraph 6 forces her to accept anything 
you write under the contract you proposed to her. 

Mr. Roth. May I see that ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes ; that is your contract. You can see it. 
That is what she balked at ? She would not agree to use her name 
at anything you wrote? 

Mr. Roth. Forgive me now. I remember that was just as big a 
stumbling point as the money. It wasn't Pat Ward. It was her 


mother wlio objected violently to this paragraph. I asked her why. 
She said, "I don't want any book published in which my daughter is 
looked upon as a whore." 

I said, "The emphasis has been made so heavily, I don't see how you 
can object." 

If it was $5,000, it would have been all right. 

Chairman KErAU\T2R. You offered her $5,000? 

Mr. Roth. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. You offered a big percentage? 

Mr. Roth. Yes. I had to do that to make sure it would be a good 

Chairman Kefauver. The fact that she was a juvenile, would that 
have any effect? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, it had consideration. I believe a book should 
appear that would give her a chance for living properly. I believe 
a book like that is in order now. I believe that the courts have 

Chairman Kefaua'er. You don't think that a book that you had in 
mind there would be interesting for children? 

Mr. Roth. I don't think so; no — not the kind of book we would 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't think that would offend high- 
school children? 

Mr. Roth. I don't think children were interested in the trial. 

Chairman Kefau\'er. We will ask you to make this contract which 
you proposed a part of the record. Let it be filed as an exhibit. 

Mr. Roth. May I say something? 

Chairman Kefauver. Sure. 

Mr. Roth. You have said this about several of the items that passed 
here, '\^'^len one has a lawyer at one's side, the lawyer usually says 
he objects and gives reasons. I have no means of knowing anything. 
If you think this should be a part of the record, I have no reason 
why it shouldn't be. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, I think so, because it shows the 
kind of contracts that 3'ou try to get, even with minors. 

Mr. Roth. May I point out for the record that the reason why 
paragraph 6 is there is tliat I had no means of laiowing that Miss 
Ward would put things into that book that might be obscene, that 
might be considered objectionable, and since I have to sell through 
the mails, I have to make absolutely certain that it will be the kind 
of a book that I sponsor. I can only sponsor a book that goes through 
the mails. 

Chairman Kefauver. How much did you offer, and how much did 
she want ? 

Mr. Roth. I think I offered $1,000, and she wanted $5,000. 

Chairman Kefauver. Plus the royalties? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, royalties would depend on sales. She would have 
been entitled to more money. 

Chairman Kefauver. Are you a naturalized citizen? 

Mr. Roth. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauaer. When were you naturalized ? 

Mr. Roth. I am not a naturalized citizen. Forgive me. I became 
a citizen on my father's papers, and that must have been when my 
father became a citizen in 1915. On the other hand, in 1940, or 1939, 


I went to tlie Immip:ration Department and demanded a certificate, 
certifying that I was a citizen on my father's papers, and I have that 

Chairman Kefauver. You think yoii became a citizen on your 
father's papers in 1915, but in 1939 you applied for citizenship? 

Mr. KoTH. Yes. Some question was raised about it while I was in 

Chairman Kefauver. And you w^ere issued 

Mr. RoTii. A certificate of citizenship. 

Chairman Kefauver. What year ? 

Mr. Roth. Either 1939 or 1940— probably 1939. 

Chairman Kefauver. In the district court in the Federal Building 
in New York ? 

Mr. Roth. No, I was issued that on Columbus Avenue— the Immi- 
gration Building. I think it is 16th Street. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you list these sentences and the time you 
served on the application for citizenship? 

Mr. Roth. Yes; all these things w^ere discussed. 

Chairman Kefauver. Were they listed on your application? 

Mr. Roth. I listed on the application whatever the application 
asked for. 

Chairman Kefauver. All of them ? 

Mr. Roth, Yes. I don't know what it was that was asked then. 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else ? 

Senator Langer. Does the staff have a copy of the application he 
signed ? 

Mr. Chumbris. You made one comparison that I would like for 
you to explain. You said that a purchase of a shirt is comparable 
to beautiful nudes. What did you have in mind when you made 
that statement ? 

Mr. Roth. I never made such a statement. 

Chairman Kefauver. You said if you went to buy a shirt, you 
might not be interested in going into the store, but if you saw an 
attractive shirt out in the window, you might buy it, and that is the 
reason you put the pictures of the nudes on your advertising. 

Mr. Roth. That is self-explanatory. If I put pictures around a 
description of a book 

Chairman Kefauver. You don't w^ant to compare a shirt to a nude, 
do you ? 

Mr. Roth. As a means of attracting attention — it wasn't a shirt 
that was being discussed, it was the lights that lit up the shirt in 
the window. I believe a nude has the same function in my circular. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, we appreciate your coming here 
and talking very freely. You have cooperated in answering our 
questions. I think I must say that I know of no one that we have 
been in touch with who doesn't feel that the kind of slime that you 
have been sending through the mails is highly deleterious to our 
young people, and damaging to their morals, and part of the whole 
picture that we have today of the breakdown among a percentage 
of our children ; that is the opinion of most of the experts that we 
have had, and I think 1 should say to you, Mr. Roth, also, that of 
all the people engaged in this business, we have had many, many 
more complaints — letters from parents, people interested in the wel- 
fare of the children — criticizing what you have been doing, than we 


have of any other person who publishes and distributes this stuff. 

Personally, I think it is very reprehensible. 

Thank you, Mr. Koth. 

Mr. Roth. May I say something? 

Chairman Kefauver, Yes. 

Senator Langp:k. The subcommittee agrees entirely in what you 
have just said about this stuff. 

Chairman Kefauver. It may be within the law, but it has been on 
the border of the law. Sometimes it has been legal and sometimes 
illegal, but that isn't entirely the question here. 

You have something to say ? 

Mr. Roth. I believe the people who have criticized me are wrong. 
I believe you are a great deal more wrong than they are, because you 
are sitting in judgment on me, and I believe that I will someday 
within the very near future convince you that you are wrong. 

Cliairman Keeauver. It will take a good deal of convincing. 

Mr. Roth. I will do it. 

Cliairman Kefauver. Thank you, Mr. Roth. 

Dr. Henry. 


Chairman Ivefauver. Dr. Henry, you are going to give expert testi- 
mony. You may mention names. Do you solemnly swear the testi- 
mony you will give will be the whole truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Henry. I do. 

Chairman KEFAu^^ER. During the course of our investigation in this 
field, I have been shocked that there are people who engage in the 
business of teaching sex deviation to young people, and people who 
make a profit therefrom. Because of inadequacy of our present Fed- 
eral rules, we are calling witnesses who will testify as to the cause and 
result of this menace. 

Dr. Henry, do you live at 184 Eldridge Street, New York City, and 
you are a psychiatrist and nationally known expert in psychosexual 
maladjustments. We know of your reputation and your standing. 

Mr. Vince Gaughan, who is a special counsel of our subcommittee, 
whose home is in Buffalo, has been helping us here, and doing a good 
job for the subcommittee in New York, will ask you some questions. 

Mr. GAUGTiAisr. Doctor, will you please, for the record, give us your 
name and address ? 

Dr. Henry. Dr. George W. Henry, and my home address is Green- 
wich, Conn. 

Mr. Gaughan. xVnd for the record. Doctor, would you state the pro- 
fession in which you are engaged ? 

Dr. Henry. I am a psychiatrist. 

Mr. Gaughan. How long have you practiced psychiatry. Doctor? 

Dr. Henry. Since 1916. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, would you please give us your educational 
background ? 

Dr. Henry. I was graduated from Johns Hopkins Medical School 
in 1916. I have been on the staff of the New York Hospital since 
1917, and I am associate professor of clinical psychiatry at the Cornell 
University Medical College. 


Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, are you presently engaged in the private 
practice of medicine and psychiatry? 

Dr. Hexry. I am. 

Mr. Gaughan. Are you also presently associated with any medical 
group ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. I am a fellow of the American Medical Associ- 
ation, a fellow of the American Psychiatric Association; I am past 
president of the New York Psychiatric Society, and I am a member 
of a number of other societies. I am a diplomate in psychiatry. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, could you tell us, is there a growing tendency 
today toward sex deviations ? 

Dr. Henry. That is my impression. 

Mr. Gaughan. From your experience can you tell us what age 
group is most susceptible to deviation ? 

Dr. Henry. Adolescence. 

Mr. Gaughan. Can such deviation from the normal manifest it- 
self in a number of forms? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Would you elaborate on that — the forms that devia- 
tion can take ? 

Dr. Henry. Well, that involves quite a big problem. I will try to 
state it briefly. 

Chairman Kefauver. Doctor, just tell us — what we want to know 
about here is the problem of juvenile delinquency, and the effect of 
this material that we have been seeing here, as to whether it is harm- 
ful or not, and what the committee and public can do, and w^hat you 
feel you are familiar wnth, to help this situation and problem, to 
give our young people a better chance. 

Dr. Henry. I have heard the testimony given this morning, and if 
you want a simple answer I would say that what I heard, what I 
learned from what is published, I would say it is harmful to adoles- 

Mr. Gaughan. Are people born wdth such perversions bred in them, 
or must be taught and educated along this line ? 

Dr. Henry. I could scarely imagine that anyone was born with 
these tendencies. There may be certain potentialities that can be 
trained, but I don't believe anybody would arrive at these various 
deviations unless they had some training. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, would you tell us what is a fetish? 

Dr. Henry. A fetish is usually some object, material, or substance 
which becomes the chief source of sexual stimulus for a particular 

Mr. Gaughan. In your medical textbook entitled "All the Sexes'^ 
you state in your chapter on fetishes that high heel fetish, and women's 
lingerie fetish are two of the more common types of fetishes. 

Dr. Henry. That is correct, but any kind of clothing, any part of 
the body might become attractive or might become a fetish for a 
particular person. 

Mr. Gaughan. Used as a substitute for the normal sex ? 

Dr. Henry. That is right. It can become and does become as excit- 
ing to them as any other part of the body, or the body, to what is 
called a normal person. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, is there such a thing as leather and rubber 
fetish ? 


Dr. Henry. Yes; that is true. 

Mr. Gaughan. Is there also a fetish known as bondage, in which 
people are trussed up '? 

Chairman Kefauver. What do you mean by leather and rubber 

Dr. Henry. There are various devices that are manufactured for 
enclosing parts of the body, and that are used for the purpose of 
exciting people sexually. 

Mr. Gaughan. In other words, certain leather types of shoes and 
boots and so on can be used as a substitute for a sexual outlet by per- 
sons who are trained along that line, who so enjoy it ? 

Dr. Hexry. That is correct. Almost anything can become a fetish, 
even a violin. 

Mr. Gaughan. Is there a type of sexual deviation that is known as 
bondage where a person is trussed up with ropes and chains? 

Dr. Henry. Yes ; that is fairly common. 

Chairman Kefauver. You say bondage is fairly common? 

Dr. Henry. Fairly common in this particular group, that is the 
group of sexual deviates. 

Chairman Kefauver. Tell us more about that bondage being fairly 

Dr. Henry. Among those who are familiar with this variety of 
sexual deviation, it is a matter of common knowledge to them. It is 
not common knowledge to the general public. 

Chairman Kefauver. You mean they like to see someone who is 
bound up ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes ; they do. 

Chairman Kefauver. Pictures of them? 

Dr. Henry. Some of them do. 

Mr. Gaughan. And some of them might be bound up by themselves ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Is the act of spanking a part of the flagellation 
technique ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes ; one of the milder forms. 

Chairman Kefauver. You mean whipping? 

Dr. Henry. Yes ; whipping in any form, even to the extent of draw- 
ing blood. 

Chairman Kefauver. You say it is a minor form. What are the 
more violent forms ? 

Dr. Hexry. They use actual whips, straps, sticks. 

Mr. Gaughan. Sometimes they use the hands, sometimes whips, 
sometimes chains, and hairbrushes? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Is there a sex deviation wherein two females are 
able to hnd an erotic satisfaction by inflicting pain and injury upon 
each other? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Wliat form of deviation does that come under? 

Dr. Henry. Sadism and masochism. 

Mr. Gaughan. Dr. Henry, I am going to come down by you, be- 
cause my questions are of such a form that I have to ask you to iden- 
tify a number of pictures that I am going to produce as an exhibit 
here today. 


Dr. Henry, I show you a booklet entitled "Cartoons and Model 
Parade" published by one Irving Klaw, of 212 East 14th Street, in 
New York City. I specihcally call your attention to the movie ottered 
hy said Klaw as advertised on pa<ie o of this publication, called 
"Negligee Fight." I note that the heading reads that this 16-milli- 
meter movie shows the terrific battle that ensues when both girls claim 
a black negligee, and, Doctor, I ask you, is this a form of the sadism or 
masochistic type of perversion to which we w^ere just referring when 
I asked you if two females can get erotic pleasure from such carry- 
ing on ? 

Dr. Henry. That is true. 

Mr. Gaughan. I also call to your attention page 3 of this same 
publication, to pictures entitled, "Chris Strips for Bed." The mention 
there is the fact that she wears — it specifically mentions she wears 
6-inch high heel, patent leather shoes. It mentions how she goes 
through this sensuous art of disrobing, and along with that I direct 
your attention to page 6 of this same publication, and on page 6 we 
find "Lounging Around in Lingerie," in which the man who offers 
this publication says he will sell this particular movie for $8, and he 
notes particularly the fact that the models wear 6-inch high heel, 
patent leather shoes. 

Doctor, I want you to note the various other pictures with this 6-inch 
shoe business being graphically brought out by the photographers 
and the author of this publication, and I ask you. Doctor, is it a fair 
statement to say that these are pictures- — these pictures are put therein 
for the purpose of exciting people to take part in the fetish that is 
known as the high-heel fetish? Is that a fair statement? 

Dr. Henry. That could be true. Such heels are sexually exciting, 
but they are also part of a picture, any part of which or all of which 
is sexually exciting. 

Mr. Gaughan. The whole picture you consider sexually exciting? 

Dr. Henry. That is right. 

Mr. Gaughan. There are a number of things in the picture besides 
the fetish we are particularly concerned with here that you find sex- 
ually exciting? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. On page T of this publication I direct your attention 
specifically to a series of photographs called, "New Specially Posed," 
in which it says there are 44 — the heading says there are 44 different 
tound-and-gagged photos, 8 being spanked, offered to you at 40 cents 
apiece. It also mentions the fact that there are three other different 
types of spanking photographs at 40 cents apiece, and the owner of 
this organization says he also offers 71 different high-heel and lingerie 
photos of models wearing 6-inch high-heel shoes, bras, and panties, at 
25 cents. 

Would you look at those photographs and tell the chairman of the 
committee whether you, in your opinion, believe that is a form of 
bondage, the type of deviation wherein the people get a sexual thrill 
or pleasure of being bound up or binding somebody else up, and 
inflicting a form of torture through these ropes and chains that you 
see in all these pictures ? 

Dr. Henry. The answer to all your questions is "Yes." 

Mr. Gaughan. I now give you this book as a whole. I ask you to 
go through this booklet. Doctor, and I ask you specifically, can you 


see any purpose for this publication other tlian the one purpose to 
cause erotic stimuli hj showing acts of sexual perversion? First, I 
asked Dr. Henry to leaf through the book, and then asked him to tell 
us, after perusing the contents of this book, to tell us whether he can 
find any other purpose than publishing such a booklet for erotic stimuli 
for the people who will read it, and dwell upon it and study it. 

Is there any desirable reason other than for erotic stimuli? 

Dr. Henry. No, the sole purpose is to stimulate people erotically in 
an abnormal way. 

Mr. Gaughan. That is the only purpose of this booklet, in your 
expert opinion, Doctor? 

Dr. Henry. That is correct. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, I ask you, could children be sexually per- 
verted by looking at, by studying, and by dwelling upon photos of this 
nature and the contents of this book ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Doctor, is it a very unwholesome influence, 
this sort of thing ? 

Dr. Henry. It is. 

Chairman Kefauver. In your opinion the increase in sex crimes, 
deviations that we are having — ^does that increase result in part at least 
from the reading and looking at magazines and pictures of this kind 
by children ? 

Dr. Henry. T would think that was an important factor in the 

Chairman Kefauaer. You think it is an important factor ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaugijan. Doctor, would violence and murder be a natural 
outgrowth of such pervei'sions that we have discussed here this morn- 
ing with you ? 

Dr. Henry. It might be. 

Chairman Kefauver. You mean this bondage and whipping, and 
things of that sort ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Would you say it is a fair statement, that suicide, 
murder, and psychosis is the end result of this type of trash? 

Dr. Henry. In some instances : yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, I show you some clippings mounted on a 
board from the Miami Daily Xews, dated Tuesday, August 31, 1954; 
the contents of these articles. Doctor, specifically note the fact that one 
17-year-old boy, Kenneth Grimm, was found hanging in an inverted 
position from a stick or board suspended between the forks of two 
trees, and trussed up in a fashion whereby his legs and arms are tied 
behind him, and a rope is thrown around his neck so that he strangles 
himself. He strangles himself by the position in which he has been 
forced. Doctor, I ask you is it your opinion, from perusing this article, 
from looking at the picture, would you say that this is the end result 
of a sex crime ? Does this impress you as the type of thing that can 
happen as the result of bondage — this fetish we have been discussing 
this morning ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes ; it is an end result, a kind of result. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the picture and plaque be made part of 
the record. 


Mr. Gaughan. "Gables boy found hanged. Weird death baffles 
cops." It also states "Father discovers body in trees." 

I would like to announce at this ])oint, the father of this boy is with 
us this morning, and has been so kind as to consent to testify following 
Dr. Henry's testimony. 

Chairman Kefauver, All right. 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, do you have any further comment that you 
would like to make on the subject that we have been discussing here — 
the subject under examination — and do you have any recommendation?-, 
that you, as an expert, a nationally renowned expert in the field, would 
like to make to the subconmiittee ^ 

Dr. Hekry. I think I should clarify this sex problem a little bit so 
that innocent people would not be involved in it. 

For instance, there is a tendency to associate such acts of violence 
with a homosexual — what is called the homosexual. The facts are 
that the homosexual is no more prone to violence than the heterosexual 
or the normal. If we were to divide humans roughly into four groups, 
we would call them heterosexual, biosexual, homosexual, and Narcis- 
sistic, and the groups that we have been talking about this morning 
belong primarily to the Xarcissistic, more specially to people whom 
we call exhibitionists, or peeping individuals. These publications 
cater to people who are psychosexnally immature, emotionally innna- 
ture, and who get their major satisfaction out of looking at such dis- 
plays. It has little to do with other fields of psychopathology that is 
commonly associated with such acts. 

The only other thing that occurs to me is that I firmly believe that 
the majority of people are so constituted and live in environments 
such that they will grow up to be reasonably normal in their sexual 

There is, however, quite a large proportion of the population who 
are susceptible to training, training such as may be obtained from these 
publications, and whether or not they arrive at a point of violence is 
perhaps an academic matter in view of the seriousness of the other 
problem that no one can tell ahead of time who is going to arrive at 
that goal once they have been exposed to these publications. 

Furthermore, there are all degrees of sadism and masochism which 
enter into human relations, and which seldom get into the newspapers. 

Chainnan Kefauver. Dr. Henry, murder — even crimes involving 
theft, beatings, most all kinds of crimes, can, to some extent, result 
from maladjustments which children might get from the kind of litera- 
ture and pictures and whatnot they see? 

Dr Henry. That is correct. A good many of the sexually malad- 
justed are not primarily interested in sex relations, but in the thrill 
or the danger which is associated wnth the sexual act. 

Chairman Kefauver. In other words, these pictures, these bondage 
pictures and things of that sort are important in this matter, too ? 

Dr. Henry. They are important. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will one of you show this gargoyle thing, 478 
Madison Avenue, to Dr. Henry ? 

Is tliat typical of the bondage pictui'es you were talking about ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. There is more of the whipping in this. You can 
see the Avhip in several of the pictures. Whipping means just what it 
says. They actually whip these people, sometimes until they bleed. 


There are individuals who are so impelled to abuse others that they 
will keep on until they kill them. 

Chairman Kefaua^r. Until they kill them ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. I think there are places in that picture that 
will show bondage pictures. 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. If that was sent through the mail, I am sure 
the inspectors would stop that. 

Dr. Henry. Sometimes the greatest thrill is experienced at the time 
that somebody is dying. 

Chairman Kefauver. Bv the person dving or the person causins: the 
death? ' ^ ^ 1 

Dr. Henry. The person causing the death. There are also people 
who get their greatest thrill by being severely beaten. 

Chairman Kefauater. You mean being the recipients of the beating? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Doctor, you saw how these pictures that Mr. 
Roth had — you heard him express his expert opinion based upon many 
years in the business. What did you think of that? What do you 
think of his philosophy ? 

Dr. Henry. I don't agree with it at all. 

Chairman Kefauver. You think this stuff he is sending out, these 
pamphlets that you saw here, are a bad influence and degrading to even 
grownups, let alone young people ''( 

Dr. Henry. Yes. I think there is a confusion between children and 
adolescence in a good deal of the testimony. When they use the word 
"children" they often mean "adolescents," and everyone knows that the 
adolescent is most sexually excitable, and has the least legitimate op- 
l)ortunity to find an outlet for that sexual excitability. As a result of 
that they find every conceivable means of finding an outlet, including 
what was shown this morning. 

It is an error also to assume that if you sell something to an adult 
that it doesn't get to an adolescent. A great many of these so-called 
adults are really still adolescents, and feel most at home with actual 

More than that, some of them are primarily interested in introducing 
adolescents into abnormal practices. 

Chairman Kefauver. So that his idea that the effect of this kind of 
stuff on adults might be stimulating and what not, but it would not 
have any effect upon adolescents is just without medical foundation ? 

Dr. Henry. I would think it would be just the opposite. It would 
be more exciting to the adolescent. 

Chairman Kefauver. An.ything else? 

Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, I might ask you, as the father of five chil- 
dren, and as many parents around the Nation have wondered from 
time to time, if we have read about the senseless killing by teen- 
agers during these past few years, would you say it is a fair state- 
ment that many of these killings are the direct result of some 
sort of an erotic stimuli that has been given to these teen-agers, these 
children, which result in their taking part in the gang warfare and 
death and violence and torture, and so on ? 

Dr. Henry. Yes ; I would expect that entered into a large propor- 
tion of such killings. 


Mr. Gaughan. a lar^je proportion? 

Dr. Henry. Yes. Tliat is related to tlie fundamental principle 
that a person who eno;ao:es in such killings is an insecure person, and 
a g:reat deal of his insecurity comes from the fact that he is poorly 
adjusted, usually, as a male. In order to bolster up his e*i;o, he has 
to do something bold to give him the feeling that he is a man. If, 
in addition, he has been trained to sadistic ways of bolstering his ego,, 
so much the worse. 

Mr. Gaughan. That is all I have. 

Chairman Kefauver. Dr. Henry, we appreciate very much your 
testimony, and I want to say while, as just a layman, and I am sure 
I might speak for the press in this regard, too, we appreciate the 
fact that you are one of the most eminent and highly thought of, 
most experienced psychiatrist in the whole United States, or the 
world, and you have spoken to us in such plain language that we can 
all understand. It was a little bit unusual. 

Thank you very much, sir. 

Dr. Henry. Well, I have had the opinion, after many years of 
experience, that if you can't tell something in plain English, you 
don't understand it yourself. 

Chairman Kefauver. We appreciate having you with us. 

Mr. Xorman Thomas, we will be glad if you will come down. 


Mr. Thomas, yesterday I was advised that you had written the 
subcommittee a letter expressing your interest in the hearing, and 
the staff of the subcommittee contacted you and asked if you were 
willing to come down and give your views and ideas to the subcom- 

I am not familiar with your various points of view, but you are 
an eminent and great American, for whom the American people of 
all political faiths have esteem and respect. 

Mr. Thomas. Especially since I quit running for office. 

Chairman Kefauver. So we are honored that you have taken out 
time to come and give us the benefit of your counsel, and through 
this subcommittee, speak to the American people on anything you have 
to say about the problem of juvenile delinquency or pornography, 
which we are considering here. 

Senator Danger is an old friend of yours. I know he has some- 
thing to say at this time. 

Senator Danger. I can only say that I do not know any man in this 
country whom I respect more highly. 

Mr. Thomas. I used to be willing to compromise for more votes and 
less respect. 

Senator Danger. We are very happy that you wrote the subcom- 
mittee, and we are happy you are here. 

Mr. Thomas. Thank you very much. 

Chairman Kefauver. Tell us anything you want to. 

Mr. Thomas, While I appreciate an opportunity to come, I am a 
little embarrassed, because, at short notice, I had no expectation of 
appearing before the committee. I wrote the letter on only one sub- 
ject and that subject was the only subject on which I have any right 
to speak. 


I am not, like many of your witnesses, an expert as a psychiatrist 
or as a teacher, or someone who has come in close contact with these 
problems. But I have, for a good deal of my life, spent a good deal of 
my time on civil-lib-erties issues, and I am a pretty stanch supporter 
of the first amendment, which I think has suffered some damage by 
Congress and certain other agencies of Government. 

I am, however, not at all impressed by the degree to which defend- 
ers of certain kinds of comic books, and even of pornogTaphy, pure and 
simple, want to press the first amendment. I do not think the first 
amendment gives any guaranty to men to seduce the innocent and to 
exploit the kind of unformed mind and unformed emotions of chil- 
dren and adolescents. 

I think there is a great deal of dangerous nonsense in this appeal 
to the first amendment and to freedom of the press when one is dealing 
with the kind of thing which I have just heard testimony about from 
the preceding witness. 

I do not believe that in order to protect the fundamental liberties 
of the press we have to turn our children, who are, in a sense, the ward 
of all our society, over to the kind of visual exploitation of base emo- 
tion, and the arousal of base emotion to which, of course, this litera- 
ture, this pornographic literature, these films and cards and all the 
rest are directed. 

I understand that the evil has grown greatly. A great many years 
ago I was a secretary of a local school board. It was here in East 
Harlem, in Manhattan, and I know we had a great deal of trouble 
with deliberate circulation for money of pornographic postal cards 
in those days. 

The situation has become much worse, I understand. It is an out- 
rage to freedom to say there is any guaranty of freedom for this kind 
of thing. 

Parents have the first responsibility, certainly, for protecting their 
children, but even the most careful parent cannot protect his children 
against the floods of certain kinds of comic books and certain kinds 
of pornographic literature now circulated; and there are a good many 
parents who have neither the knowledge or capacity to protect them, 
and society has to step in. 

I do not believe that society can advantageously, or perhaps consti- 
tutionally in the United States, step in by prepublication censorship. 
That, I think is open to doubt in the light of history as a method of 
dealing with any of these problems. 

I will be perfectly frank and express considerable doubt of the use- 
fulness of the voluntary censorship set up by the comic book pub- 

There is a certain danger in giving a parent's seal of approval to 
rather bad stuff, even if it is within the code, as if it had authoritative 

I should go along with the people who are opposed to censorship. 
But it seems to me that it ought to be possible to find ways of out- 
right prohibition of the circulation, by any device whatever, of the 
kind of pornographic stuff you have been discussing and the kind of 
comic books that Dr. Wertham discussed. 

I suppose there are difficulties of definition, but I think the job can 
be done. I am not at all impressed by some of the arguments I have 


heard by spokesmen for the industry, and from honest defenders 
of civil liberty who, I think, in this case are misguided. 

I am not impressed by the kinds of arguments I hear. I am not at 
all impressed with the notion that you should deal with pornography 
and a certain type of comic book as you might deal with the discussion 
of ideals which would lead to sedition. You are dealing with an 
entirely different realm of affairs. 

An idea, even a wrong idea, a bad idea in economics, in politics, 
and so on, can be met in the market place by a true idea, and history, at 
least in America, bears out this statement— that, on the whole, a true 
idea wins a victory. I haven't won often enough to say it always 
does, but on the whole, I believe that error in this field is better counter- 
acted by truth, than when error goes out— rather, than when truth 
calls on a policeman's club in the matter. 

The appeal that is then suggested by an idea is wholly different 
from the kind of thing about which you have just had testimony. To 
the unformed life of a child, the perversion of what, in itself, is a life- 
giving sexual instinct is a terrible thing for society, and does not fall 
in the class of ideas which was defended as able to win their own 

I am not at all impressed by the argument that I have heard that 
it is time to wait until you have proved clear and immediate danger 
by absolute and precise proof that a particular crime or a particular 
bit of outrageous juvenile delinquency has been caused by a par- 
ticular comic book or pornographic publication. This is absurd. 

There is a good deal of talk to the effect that those of us who 
believe that something has to be done are alleging that all juvenile 
delinquency is due to these publications. I never hear that allega- 
tion made "by anyone except by people who want to knock down a 
strawman. I don't think that is the main cause of juvenile delin- 
quency, but so serious is this delinquency, everything is dangerous. 

What we are concerned with is not primarily, or chiefly, as I see 
it, the stopping of particular crimes that reach police court. It is 
the whole effect upon the minds of the young who are going to sliape 
the future, and that is not subject to these precise tests of clear and 
immediate danger that have been alleged. 

I have heard some of the psychiatric testimony — not here, but 
elsewhere — which apologizes for this. I have not been too much 
impressed. But I do believe there is immense value in modern psy- 
chiatry and in its research. I doubt if right and wrong is determined 
solely by psychiatric majorities one way or another, and I doubt if 
the commonsense of the communities is altogether gainsaid by the 
testimony of men who tell me, as one man did tell me, that the most 
horrible comics, exalting sadism and teaching crime, have no effect 
at all. That I just do not believe. 

I would like awfully well, as a rule, to know whether the men who 
thus testified have gotten any fees from any of the self-interested 
parties. They have a right to get such fees. Everybody has a right 
to hire help, but I confess, without wishing to get into any row with 
any tobacco companies, that I would not be as much impressed by 
a doctor who is hired by a great tobacco company to prove there 
was no danger of lung cancer as I would by a more disinterested 

65263—55 15 


I am very much interested to know who pays what in the matter 
of some of this testimony. . ■,■ 

I have been very much impressed, and depressed, to listen to pretty 
good peo])le who argue very hotly, mostly against censorship, to 
which I also am opposed, but ap])arently in some cases agamst any 
kind of legislative action. 

They allege one of two things. They have to. Either that this— 
after all, these horror prints do not do any harm, or else that you 
cannot help it that they don't do enough harm to run a certain risk. 

AVhat troubles me is that in almost every case you get a confusion 
of two ideas. I have here what was given me. I think it is called 
"Facts Kit." Tt was o;iven to me by the Comic Book Publishers 
Association. Right through their literature there runs confusion 
of ideas. On the one hand they boast they are now pure, having set 
up their own authority ; and on'the other hand they argue they didn't 
need to, because it did no harm, that psychiatrists said what they were 
doing was all right. 

They cannot have it both ways ; in this connection, I am very skepti- 
cal of what is revealed by the confusion. 

I am also extraordinarily unsympathetic with a notion that our 
society is so dull and so bound by rather extreme logic, that there 
is no way to prevent this horror literature, these horror pictures, 
with all their etfect, which may not be extended to censorship or 
prohibition of Mother Goose, or Shakespeare, or, in another field, 
"Crime and Punishment." 

I imagine that some of the artists that you have been discussing 
could make Mother Goose a pretty bad business with certain kinds 
of drawings. But I think it is all nonsense to argue that because 
there is silence in Jack the Giant Killer, and because one of the 
heroes of the Mother Goose rhyme was going to throw a man down- 
stairs for not saying his prayers, that therefore there is no way of 
restricting the horror and pornographic literature that comes flood- 
ing out to the immense profit of the publishers, without prohibiting 
Mother Goose, or something of the sort. 

I think the common sense American knows the difference. I think 
the difference could be written into laws that could pass the test of 
constitutionality. I am not a psychiatrist or a lawyer and cannot help 
you in framing those laws. I think the job could be done. I think 
it is defeatist to say that you cannot do it. 

I think, moreover, that the interpretation of law depends in part, 
as we know, by the development of public opinion. The Chief Justice 
of the United" States, himself, held that changes in public opinion, in 
the way we think about things, made the doctrine of Separate but 
EoumI not tenable now. 

1 think in these tunes, with this terrible increase of juvenile delin- 
quency, with this immensely profitably flood of pornography, using 
techniques never before available to the seducers of the innocent, I 
think it is nonsense to say that we are so bound by a very extreme inter- 
pretation of the freedom of the press that we cannot act. 

We have acted in other cases, as I know. I think the post office, in 
some cases, has been given too much power not to accept for mailing 
certain things — religious books and political books — that are said to 
involve dissension. If that is constitutional, certainly the kind of 
legislation that I think you could shape would be constitutional. 



The verv etfort is itself educational. It will open the eyes of lots 
of people— parents. It will oive them authority and help m enforcing 
the law. . 

I heard a defense of this sort of business, this pornography, m the 
following terms— that some authority, not named, had said that a 
diseased mind mioht be more adversely afi'ected by the mere presence 
of a person of the opposite sex than by any of this literature. That is 
a most shocking argument to advance. We are not talking about 
already diseased minds so far gone that they might be rumed by that 
which 'is normal and proper in life. We are talking about people who 
have tendencies that can be led into disease. That is a very different 

In other words, gentlemen, I apologize for a not too carefully worked 
out speech. 1 did not know I was coming until I had no time to do 
any writing, but I do want to put myself on record, just because I have 
so diligently tried to serve civil liberty, as believmg that it is not only 
possible for you to frame legislation that will curb the enormous evils 
without abridging any desirable liberty ; but it is necessary, for free- 
dom, itself, is besmirched, if freedom comes to the tune of $500 million 
a year, and society and government is utterly powerless. 

Chairman Kefauver. We thank you very much for an enlightening, 
forcible statement. It will be very helpful to our subcommittee, and, 
I am sure, to everyone who reads and hears this. It was fine of you to 
write us a letter, and we would like to make your letter part of the 

AVhile we iunen't discussed some remedies that have been suggested 
by you in any detail, everybody knows that no citizen has been more 
vigorous in the defense of civil liberties and freedom of the press and 
speech than you ; and your concern about this problem of pornography 
and horror crime books, and how you think it should be dealt with, is 
certainly very valuable to us. 

Mr. Thomas. May I add that I have been, on a number of occasions, 
a member of a jury. I believe you can trust the American jury to 
deal with nonsense and justice. They would act in ways that would 
not create a danger of interference with the true freedom of speech 
or the press. I know it will take some doing, and I don't altogether 
envy you the task of doing it, but I think it can and must be done. 

Senator I^^nger. I know of no man who has had more experience 
in his personal life than has Norman Thomas. He is a real true 
American citizen, and I am certainly proud he came here and testified 
before this subcommittee. It is a great tribute to this subcommittee 
to have Norman Thomas come here and testify before it. 

Mr. Thomas. Thank 3^011 very much. I am not seeking any particu- 
lar applause ; I am terribly interested in it. 

The first time I found out how serious it could be was a great many 
years ago, and I think it has grown worse. 

Chairman Kefafver. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Thomas. Thank you. 


(The letter dated May 23, 1955, from Norman Thomas and ad- 
dressed to Senator Kefauver is as follows:) 

New York, N. Y., May 23, 1955. 
Hon. BSTES Kefauver, 

Senate Office Building, Washington 25, D. C. 
Dear Senator KEFAmnER : Like every good citizen, I am deeply concerned for 
the success of tlae hearings you are holding concerning juvenile delinquency and 
related matters like the effect of so-called comic books on the young. 

I am no expert at all in the field in which you are making inquiry. I hare, 
however, long been active in behalf of civil liberties and I want to put on rec- 
ord with you my belief — in contrast to some champions of civil liberties — that 
government has" not only a right but a duty to consider legislative controls of 
the publication and circulation of comic books in order to prevent the "seduc- 
tion of the innocent" by the terrible mixture of sex sensationalism, if not out- 
right pornography, sadism, education in crime, and sheer horror to which cer- 
tain comic books have treated us. 

It is, of course, fantastic to argue in behalf of any doctrine of freedom of 
speech or the press, that men have an inalienable right to corrupt the young 
and to make themselves rich in the process. The argument for a do-nothing 
policy by the Federal Government can only be supported on one or both of two 
lines. First, that these vicious comic books do no real harm ; and, second, that 
Government is so clumsy an instrument that it can find no way to protect chil- 
dren without running the risk of assuming dictatorial powers over the press. 
I think both arguments are erroneous. 

The case against the horror comics is not merely or chiefly the degree they may 
contribute to juvenile delinquency. It is the effect of them on the minds of those 
for whose education as good citizens society has responsibility. I am aware that 
supposedly expert psychological and psychiatric testimony has been brought 
forward to support the contention that these comics have no bad effect. This 
is a position that cannot be taken logically unless one is willing to advance the 
extraordinary proposition that there is no case at all for moral education or 
the inculcating of a lot of good literature. It is the experience of the race that 
children's minds are very impressionable for good or evil, particularly by the 
picture method which makes so strong an appeal to them. Good and evil are not 
determined by majority votes of psychiatrists and I should question the value 
of the vote of the psychiatrist who appears or ever has appeared for a fee paid 
by the publishers of comic books. They have a right to hire psychiatrists and 
psychiatrists have a right to be hired. But I would not give full weight to the 
evidence ofl'ered under these circumstances any more than I should give full 
weight to the testimony of a doctor on cancer who was in the employ of one 
of the great tobacco companies. I think the preponderance of evidence is 
entirely on the side of those who believe that these books are a contributory, 
though bv no means the sole cause of juvenile delinquency. 

I do not, however, accept as valid the attempt of certain advocates of civil 
liberty to claim that the Government can only interfere if at all on the basis 
of proof of clear and immediate danger of specific contribution of a comic 
book to overt juvenile delinquency. The right of free speech on political and 
economic matters up to a point of clear and immediate danger is one thing. 
The right of free speech or free press to corrupt the young is another. 

The principal argument of advocates of civil liberties has been directed against 
censorship. I myself would doubt the efficacy or possibly the constitutionality 
of a law providing for a governmental precensorship of comic books. I am not 
favorably impressed by the private censorship suddenly set up by the comic book 
publishers here in New York. For one thing, the seal of approval carries too 
much weight in the mind of the young for inferior stuff. I should, however, 
think it possible to deal fairly well with the evil by invoking the Government's 
right to protect children by setting up in law a prohibition of the circulation of 
horror comics, generally defined in the law, among children. The enforcement 
of the law, as now of law against pornography, should be left to district attorneys 
and juries. It should be hoiked the district attorneys would act more vigilantly 
than sometimes in the case of pornographic postal cards circulated among school 
children. It is also, I think, important in any effort either to turn on the 
light for arousing public opinion or to help in the enforcement of law that each 
comic book should bear the name of the responsible publisher, and author or 


I am aware that the wording of a definition of the kind of horror comics the 
sale and circulation of which to children should be prohibited is not easy. But 
I refuse to believe that it is impossible to make such a definition which will not 
apply to the proper publication and circulation of serious books like Crime and 
Punishment, for instance. I do not believe that we cannot pass a law dealing 
with comic books that will not apply to Shakespeare and Mother Goose. I am 
rather irritated by the argument to the contrary. 

In this whole field it is important to distinguish between the kind of truth 
in religious, economic, and social theories which can make its own way in the 
market place of ideas and the kind of decency which can make its own way 
in the minds of children against these horror books. Pornography and sadism 
bypass the area of intellectual discussion or conflict. This is particularly true 
when one is dealing with the impressionable minds of children. Milton's argu- 
ment against censorship was never meant by him to operate in this field of 
pornography and sadism. One does not need to be a psychiatrist to recognize 
the force of the difference. 

I am addressing this to you personally because you are in charge of the in- 
vestigation but I should be very willing to have it put on the record if you are 
recording written statements as well as oral. 
Sincerely yours, 

Norman Thomas. 

Chairman Kefau\t.r. We will stand in recess until 15' minutes to 2. 
(Whereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 1 : 45 


Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Clarence Grimm. 
Mr. Grimm, will you come around, sir ? 

Mr. Grimm, will you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this subcommittee will be the whole truth, so help you God ? 
Mr. Grimm. Yes. 


Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Grimm, before counsel, Mr. Gaughan, 
asks you some questions, I want you to say that as chairman of this 
subcommittee I know the embarrassment and the distaste that you 
have in coming here to talk again, or to have anything to say about 
the tragic happening to your son on August 20 of last year. I know 
that you would rather not say anything about it; however, in the 
judgment of this subcommittee your testimony may be of some benefit 
in bringing to the attention of the people and to law enforcement 
agencies and to legislative bodies the kind of situation that might be 
of some help in preventing some other father's son from having a sim- 
ilar tragic experience. 

It is on that basis that we have asked you to come today to testify. 
We appreciate your cooperation. We know that you would like to 
do anything you could to try to see that the kind of mania of wliich your 
son was the victim is removed from our society. 

Vie know that your son was an outstanding young man, but we 
feel that by your telling us about it, it may enable us to help get at 
the problem. So, we do a])preciate your cooperation. 

Mr. Gaughan, you may proceed. 

Mr. Gaughax. Mr. Chairman, I would like at the outset to state 
that in our investigations of this terrible tragedy, I myself was 
singularly impressed by the type of young man tliat met this tragic 
end. Pie was an Eagle Scout of Coral Gables, Fla. ; a B-plus student 
in his school work, and a model young man in every sense of the word. 


So, Mr. Grimm, for the record, would you please state your name, 
your full name? . 

Mr. Grimm. My name is Clarence Grnnm. 

Mr. GAUGHAN.'And your address, sir? 

Mr. Grimm. 5028 Maggiore, Coral Gables, Fla. 

Mr. Gaughan. How are you employed, Mr. Grimm ? 

Mr. Grimm. I am self-employed. I am an electrical contractor. 

Mr Gaughan. Mr. Grimm, are you acquainted with the purposes of 
this investigation, of this subcommittee, into juvenile delinquency and 
pornography, specifically, at this hearing? 

Mr. Grimm. Yes, sir. . i , i -u-i. 

Mr. Gaughan. Mr. Grimm, I am going to hand you an exhibit 
which has already been introduced into evidence. With your permis- 
sion I will come down closer to you. 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes, come down closer and get the essential 

points over. ,. , • • j- .1 

Mr. Gaughan. Sir, I hand you a group of clippings from the 
Miami Daily News, of Tuesday evening, August 31, 1954, and also 
some from the same paper for August 21, 1954 [handing to Mr. 
Grimm] . 

Sir, can you identify those clippings? 

Mr. Grimm. Yes, sir; I can. 

Mr. Gaughan. With what are they concerned ? 

Mr. Grmm. They are concerned with the tragic death of my son. 

Mr. Gaughan. Can you, Mr. Grimm, tell the subcommittee how 
it w^as that your boy met his sudden end on the evening of August 20, 
1954 ; can you tell us specifically ? I realize it is an unsolved murder 
and that the details are— you are as mystified as the police authorities 
l3y it— but tell us what you know about it, starting with what occurred 
that evening when you came home to dinner and saw your boy for 
the last time. -^ m^ 

Mr. Grimm. Well, I don't know how to go about telling it. ihese 
articles are self -explanatory. 

We missed him in the evening. He had worked all day tor me. He 
got home from his work about 5 o'clock and had come home dirty 
and tired, in his work clothes. 

He turned on the water faucet to fill the tub with water, then went 
out in the yard and fired off a couple of firecrackers which he had 
brought back from Georgia. He had been to a summer camp. 

He attracted his mother's attention to it. She called out to him 
to come in and shut the water off. 

He was away all evening, which is unusual. He never left the house 
without telling us. He had no errand that we knew of. In fact, 
he had planned to go to a civil defense meeting that evening, where 
he was a member of the Ground Observation Corps. 

I found him the next morning in a very grotesque, weird situation 
that I have never been able to cope with or understand yet. 

Mr. Gaughan. Would you, sir, for the subcommittee, tell us how 
your son was trussed up, 'and the position in which you found him 
when you found his body on the morning of August 21 ? 

Mr. Grimm. He was trussed up in a very unnatural position. It 
looked like it had been planned in some way. It wasn't anything 
that I had ever seen before, or anybody else had ever seen before, 
that I know of. 

Gables Boy Found Hanged, 
Weird Dl 3th Baffles Cops 

rather Discovers 

Im Death 

/Miami Daily News 

Suspect Gri) 
In Grimm Co^ 


JHongcd Boy In Gables 
|Wos Sloin, Police Soy 


He wasn't hung like most people liano- themselves by the neck from 
a rope The fact that he didn't have any clothes on, and he was a 
modest boy, led me innnediatelv to believe that there was some sex 
angle to it, some sex act in some way, either with the hel]) ot someone 
else or through retaliation on the part of someone else— 1 don t know 
what it is. It is still a mysteiy to me. . t^ ■, at 

Mr G\uGHAN. I show you a picture from the Muimi Daily iSews, a 
sketch oi the boy [handing to Mr. Grimm]. Would you say that is 
an accurate sketch of how the boy was found when you saw hira^ 

Mr. Grimm. Yes; very accurate. 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Gaughan, you just describe the 
picture for the record ; tell us what it shows. 

Mr. Gaughan. The picture at which I am looking shows 2 saplings, 
with forks, and a 1- by 2-inch board is suspended between the 2 forks 
of the tree. Hanging by his knees and, of course, in an inverted posi- 
tion, is Kenneth Grimm. He is trussed up with ropes, tied around his 
ankles, the same ropes reaching from his ankles to his arms, and looped 
around his neck, so that his body is pulled back in a very grotesque- 
looking position. 

The caption underneath the picture reads : 

An artist's sketch shows how Kenneth Grimm, 17, was found trussed and 
hanging from a wooden crossbar between two trees in bushes near his Coral 
Gables home at 502S Maggiore Street. The boy's feet were bound by a rope, 
and he was hanging from his knees. The rope from his feet encircled his neck, 
bending his body in a sharp backward arc. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Let that be entered into the record. 

Senator Langer. May I see it, please? 

Mr. Gaughan. Yes, sir [handing to Senator Langer]. 

Mr. Grimm, do you recognize, sir, this booklet which I hand you, 
entitled, "Cartoon and Model Parade," published by Irving Klaw, 
"the Pin-Up King?" 

Mr. Grimm. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Would you tell the subcommittee how you first came 
upon a copy of this book ? 

Mr. Grimm. Through a mutual friend who was interested in the 
case, why, he brought my attention to an ad in one of these so-called 
girlie magazines, which publicized this book. 

It took him quite a wliile to hnd the thing and bring it to me, and 
he finally did. My son-in-law sent off for the catalog. 

As a result of that, I found very similar situations, or very similar 
acts of tying people up in that book that reminded me of my son's 
case, and that is one reason why I got hot on this angle at this end of 
it. I had never come across anything like that before, and I was look- 
ing for a clue. 

I feel that there is some connection in some way. I don't know just 
what the connection is, indirectly or directly, through someone else 
that studied this and knew about it; I don't know what happened. I 
do feel that this is the hottest thing that I have gotten onto since the 
boy died; I believe that, as far as this clue to the incident is concerned. 

Mr. Gaughan. Sir, I direct your attention specifically to page 3 
of this publication showing a young lady trussed up, and ask you to 
look at that picture, with her arms tied behind her back, hesr mouth 
gagged, the only dissimiliarity is that she is in a sitting position here. 


In other words, if we were to flip her backwards, she would be upside 

Is that somewhat similar to the position, the way the rope^ were 
arranged when you found your boy ? 

Mr. Grimm. I can't say this is a similar position. There are some 
in here which are very similar. 

Mr. Gaughan. Let me direct your attention to pa^e 4. 

Mr. Grimm. Even these cartoons here [indicating], some of these 
probably, if you invert them, would probably be very similar. 

I can't say that I ever studied these. I would probably be more like 

Mr. Gaughan. On page 8 ? 

Mr. Grimm. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. I saw one in there where they had a person 
hanging with the feet down. 

Mr. Gaughan. Yes. There are so many different illustrations of 
this hanging business and trussing business that it is hard to point to 
any particular one. 

Let me show you this one here, sir. This picture here illustrates a 
model known as Betty Page. 

Does that accurately reflect about how your boy was found? 

Mr. Grimm. It is more or less the same. It is a very similar posi- 
tion ; there is a resemblance to the way I found him. 

Mr. Gaughan. In other words, when you went through this book by 
yourself you were immediately struck by the number of illustrations 
in that book that depicted the same fashion in which your boy died? 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 

Mr. Gaughan. And you, sir, came to what conclusion after looking 
at this magazine ? 

Mr. Grimm. As I say, I have been looking for some clue to this thing. 
I haven't had the police into it. They let the case rest as some type 
of accident due to some impulse on the part of the boy. They don't 
know anything beyond that, and they haven't been of any help beyond 

in trying to solve the thing, in trying to arrive at some more definite 
reason for this, why, that is the closest thing I have gotten to it. The 
way that was tied, it wasn't anything that any youngster like him, with 
his character — it wasn't anything that he could concoct himself. There 
wasn't any history of that; no similar action on his part. He led an 
outdoor life. He was active in the Boy Scouts from the time he was a 
little bit of a fellow. He had attended a boys' camp in Tennessee for 
5 or 6 seasons. He had only been home 2 days from the camp when this 
happened. He was a counselor there this year, and I don't think they 
would have selected him and invited him to have become a counselor if 
there was anything questionable about his actions. 

Therefore, I feel that he could not have worked himself into this 
position of his own making, or couldn't have thought of anything like 
that. It would have had to have been brought to his attention by either 
someone else showing him how, or he saw a picture of it — I don't know. 
I feel there is a definite connection between this sort of thing and his 

I also feel there is definitely an evil to this, and I am bound and deter- 
mined to do what I can to suppress it. It isn't good. It is an un- 


healthy situation. It is not wholesome. There is iiothiiio- cultural 
about it. It is just no damned good. That's all I can say about it. 

Naturally, I feel more keenly about it since I was involved in some- 
thing that I feel is a direct result of something like this, you see. 

Mr. Gaughan. Your boy is gone, and you are trying to prevent any- 
thing like this happening in the future to any other parents? 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 

Mr. Gaughan. In other words, sir, you became interested in this 
thing known as bondage, this tying, after your boy's death, and it was 
something with which you were not acquainted prior to this incident? 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 

Mr. Gaughan. And you are now in your mind thoroughly convinced 
that he was a victim of this thing that we have been discussing this 
morning with Dr. Henry, called the bondage and fetish ? 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. In some way ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Gaughan. Sir, I hand you a clipj^ing from, I believe this is, 
the Miami Herald of January 7, 1955 [handing to Mr. Grimm] . 

Mr. Grimm. Yes. 

Mr. Gaughan. Headed "Murder Charged to Vet in Beach Stran- 
gling." Would you, sir, tell us the contents of that article, what it 
purports to show ? 

Mr. Grimm. It concerns the case of a young fellow about 21 years 
old, a veteran of the Marine Corps, just out of the marines, who it 
seems was invited to the apartment of a male hairdresser about 27 years 
old, and they found the hairdresser trussed up in a very similar fashion 
to the way these pictures look there, and the way I found my son — the 
same type of thing. In fact, the newspapers made reference to both 
cases, the similarity of both cases. 

As a result, this 27-year-old fellow died, and the veteran has been 
sentenced and convicted, or convicted and sentenced to a lifetime sen- 
tence in prison. 

The only tieup it has with my son's case is that there was news- 
paper references to the two, and it seems to me it has to do with the 
same sort of thing which we are all here discussing now. 

Mr. Gaughan. I understand, Mr. Grimm, that this young man who 
died on January G of this year was found trussed up in the same type 
of position except that he was laid on the floor instead of suspended. 

Mr. Grimm. Similar, yes; very similar position. The rope was 
behind his back, of course. It was unnatural. If it was just a case of 
tying somebody up to keep them from getting away, when you study 
this, as you and I have since we have become interested in this, you 
recognize it innnediately as an unusual practice. It isn't anything 
that happens just in the 

Mr. Gaughan. Normal course of events? 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. Somebody just tying somebody up to 
keep them from getting away — there is some sex angle connected with 
this, and the police recognize it as such. It evidently has a tie-in with 
this bondage idea, about which I never knew before I started studying 
it recently. 

Mr. Gaughan. This clipping, sir, and other similar clippings to it, 
at the time the newspapers in the area called attention to the similarity 
of your boy's death, this bov's death 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 


Mr, Gaughan, And it "was pointed out at the trial of the young 
man — I believe he was a 20-year-old young man who was convicted and 
who is now serving life in the Florida State prison- — that it was a 
definite sex crime, and that he had committed an unnatural act upon 
the young man who was trussed up. 

Mr. Grimm. No, sir; it wasn't exactly like that. 

I believe that the theory behind the thing is that it was a sex crime 
of this nature, also, but I don't believe that — there was some evidence 
of a sex act involved, but just who was involved, I don't know. 

As a matter of record, I don't believe it involved the young man. 
He claims the other fellow propositioned him, and as a result he tied 
hfm up. That's his story. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. Let this be filed as an exhibit. 

(The newspaper clippings were marked "Exhibit No. 20," and are 
on file with the subcommittee.) 

Mr. Gaughan. In other words, this is an end result, as we discussed 
with Dr. Henry this morning, of the unnatural fetishes, and another 
boy is dead. 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 

Mr. Gaughan. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. Is 
there any question you would like to ask ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer, any questions ? 

Senator Langer. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Grimm, tell us again how it was you got 
this publication ? 

Mr. Grimm. He had an ad in the girlie-type magazine — a full-page 
ad, in fact — describing a lot of this tying up business. 

A friend, being interested in my case, tliought it might throw some 
light on my son's case, so he brouglit me the magazine. As a result, 
my son-in-law sent for this magazine to see what there was to it, and 
sent it to me. That's how I came upon this catalog. 

Chairman Kefauver. In this catalog which has been shown to 

Mr. Grimm. Incidentally, after listening to the testimony this morn- 
ing, there is no question there, again, as to whether it was a minor or 
who was asking for this literature. It was just sent out without any 
strings attached at all. 

Chairman Kefauver. In this catalog are small examples of what 
you will see in larger and more numerous types 

Mr. Grimm. Probably so; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Folders. When you send in the money you 
get the whole thing. 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. Evidently, we didn't send in for them, 
because this was just more or less as far as we cared to go with it at 
tiie time. 

Evidently they come in serial form. The one picture encourages 
you to buy more. I suppose that's the idea. We never went in for 
that ; we didn't know. I presume that that's the idea behind it. 

In other words, you get on the mailing list, and I suppose you are a 
subscriber tlien, if you care to be, and you can buy as much of it as you 

Chairman Kefauaer. It gives a little example of what it is you are 
going to see ; and then it says that after being bound and blindfolded, 
"Joan is led away in an automobile driven by a bound and gagged 


chauffeurette, taken to a training school." The price is 50 cents, each 
chapter, size 8 by 10, 

So that you order by number, and then you get a large picture 
and a series of the similar kind of picture here. That is what this 
catalog is. 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauvj:r. I think it is interesting to look at this. This 
seems to be the 97th edition. The catalog itself costs 50 cents. 

Mr. Grimm. Yes. Obviously, I believe you will agree with me — 
I am no expert on this sort of thing, but I have been around a little bit 
in my life, in the type of work that I do — it doesn't take an expert to 
recognize that as not a wliolesome, cultural type of literature. It 
definitely was not displayed or sent through the mails for that reason 
at all, to add to the cultural uplift of the country at all. It is evil ; 
it is no good. 

Chairman Kepauver. Well, it speaks for itself. 

Mr. Grimm. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Well, sir, we thank you for your cooperation 
and for the help you have given us. 

Mr. Grimm. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who is our next witness ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Irving Klaw. 

Mr. Klaw. I would like to request no photographs, no lights. If 
you don't mind. 

Chairman Kefauver, The photographers have a right to take your 
picture. As customary, after you start testifying, we will ask that 
the lights be turned off. 

Have you been sworn, Mr. Klaw? 

Mr. Klaw. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you 
will give the subcommittee will be the whole truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Klaw. I do. 


Chairman Kefauver. You had counsel with the other day ? 

Mr. Klaw. Yes, sir. 

Chairaian Kefauver. Is he with you ? 

Mr. Klaw. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefaua^er. Mr. Counsel, won't you come up? 

Mr. Gangel. I am available in the room for consultation if he 
wants me. 

Chairman Kefauver. If you want to sit with Mr. Klaw, you may. 

Mr. Gangel. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver, Just as you wish. If you will just be avail- 
able for consultation, that is all right. 

Mr. Gangel. I will be available to him. 
_ Chairman Kefauver. If you wish to consult with Mr. Gangel at any 
time, you will let the subcommittee know and we will interrupt the 
proceedings for tliat purpose. 

Let the record show that Senator Langer and the chairman are 

Mr. Chumbris, will you proceed ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr, KlaAv, will you state your full name? 


Mr. Klaw. Irving Klaw. 

Mr. Chumbris. And your address ? 

Mr. Klaw. 212 East 14tli Street, New York City. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, in what business are you engaged ( 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 
Constitution of the United States, that to answer may tend to incrimi- 
nate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, I think it would be well for 
you to make a brief statement as to the nature of the testimony that 
you expect to elicit from Mr. Klaw by your questions so that we can 
determine whether the evidence that you would expect to secure comes 
within the jurisdiction of the inquiry of this subcommittee. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Chairman, our investigation reveals that Mr. 
Klaw is one of the largest distributors of obscene, lewd, and fetish 
photographs throughout the country by mail. 

We expect to show that he has had difficulties with the Post Office 

We have had testimony today, as Mell as last week from Dr. Karp- 
man, and Dr. Henry today, showing the effect that these photo- 
graphs have on juveniles and on youth. 

We have had testimony today from Mr. Roth, and other testimony, 
which indicates that this material does get into the hands of youth, 
and our subcommittee has received complaints from many parents to 
the effect that advertisements of these particular i^hotographs, as well 
as the photographs themselves, have gotten to the youth. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you expect to ask Mr. Klaw^ and do you 
have as to the material that "he is sending out, information that they 
are getting to the children and to the young people; is that part of 
the showing ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That is right. That is part of the overall investi- 
gation that not only Mr. Klaw but others are producing the type of 
fetish photographs' and lewd photographs that not only in some in- 
stances have used youth as models, but they do get into the hands of 
the youth. 

We do believe that that has a direct bearing on our juvenile delin- 
quency investigation. 

Chairman Kefauver. Part of this record will also include the testi- 
mony of Dr. Henry, Mr. Grimm, and of the exhibits which have been 
put "into tlie record, including Cartoon and Model Parade, published 
by Irving Klaw, the Pin-Up King, for artists, photogi\aphy students, 
and collectors. 

Mr. Chumbris, do you expect to prove that our subcommittee has 
complaints and correspondence from parents or children, law-enforce- 
ment officers, showing that Mr. Klaw's publication has anything to do 
of a deleterious nature affecting juvenile delinquency with young 
people ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Post Office Department 
has turned over to us advertisements similar to the advertisements 
that we introduced into the record this morning that Mr. Eoth has 
sent out. These advetisements have gotten to the youth. 

We have this exhibit which shows the type of photos that do go out 
throughout the country. 


"VVe have a statement here wliich shows that 65 percent of the cus- 
tomers that Mr. Khiw has of movie stills are girls from G to IG, thereby 
ci-eating a mailino- list of a great many minors. 

We have in our investigation determined information to that effect, 
that he has a mailing list 

Chairman Kefauver. You mean that he uses young people or 
minors in the pictures and the magazines that go out ? 

Mr. Chumbris. No ; that they are the ones who request of Mr. Klaw 
the movie stills. 

He has a mailing list— 65 percent of that mailing list, customer list 
of those stills, are girls from 6 to 16. I would like to ask hnn those 
particular questions. 

Chairman Kefauver. Very well. In the opinion of the subcom- 
mittee the statement of what you expect to prove by Mr. Klaw has 
relevancy and is within the jurisdiction of this subcommittee to make 

Would the reporter repeat the question ? 

(The reporter read the question, as follows :) 

Mr. Klaw, in what business are you engaged? 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. Mr. Klaw , the subcommittee will order you 
to answer that question. 

Mr. Klaw. May I speak to my counsel, please? 

Chairman KEFAu^^R. You may speak to your counsed. We will 
have a brief recess. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefaua^er. Mr. Klaw^, in fairness and in compliance with 
the requirements of the Supreme Court, I must warn you that this 
committee will cite you for contempt of the Senate if you decline to 
answei', and I wnll now give you a further chance to answer. 

That is within the power that we have, we feel that you are in 
contempt of the Senate by refusing to answer. It will be our inten- 
tion to go through the legal proceedings and the legislative proceed- 
ing necessary to have you cited for contempt. 

Do you still refuse to answer? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 

Would that be sufficient to state, that I decline under the fifth 
amendment, or should I say it all the way through, Mr. Kefauver? 

Chairman Kefauver. We are not asking any quarter and we are 
not giving any quarter, Mr. Klaw. 

Mr. Counsel, or Mr. Klaw. I doii't know what offense that your client 
may have in mind. We have no desire for him to answer any question 
or to direct him to answer a question where he pleads the fifth amend- 
ment if tliere is really some justification, if he is in actual fear of prose- 
cution under some Federal statute, or even if while it is not the law, 
some imminent State statute of the State of New York. 

Will you, Mr. Klaw. or you, Mr. Gangel, wish to elaborate under 
Avhat law he fears he might incriminate himself? 

Mr. Gangel. I can state, Mr. Chairman, that in my opinion the 
witness has a reasonable apprehension that answers would tend to 
incriminate him. 


Chairman KErAxrvER. You do not wish to be more specific, Mr. 

Mr. Gangel. I don't believe that I can at this time. 

Chairman Kefauver. I am not demanding that you do ; I just want 
to give you an opportunity. 

Mr. Gangel. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that we will rest upon the 
asserted privilege of the witness as he has stated it upon the record. 

Chairman Kefauver. Does your client have fear of any violence, of 
any retaliation of any outside nature in case he might answer ? 

Mr. Gangel, If he has, I don't know, sir. 

Chairman Ivefauver. If he does, does he wish to say anything about 
it one way or the other ? Mr. Klaw ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Chairman ICefauver. . Very well. Ask the next question, Mr. 
Chumbris, please go to the next question, 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that from 1933 
to 1937 you operated a business as a furrier. I wish you would tell 
us about that. 

Mr. Klaw. May I speak to my counsel, please, for a second ? 

Chairman KEFAm^ER. Yes, you may. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. Yes. I was employed as a furrier during that period 

mentioned. , , .i 

Mr. Gangel. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, do I understand that there 
are pictures being taken now ? I understood you to state at the outset 
that at the request of the witness that would not prevail. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Yes; that is the rule. If you request that 
the television or movies not be taken any further, we will ask them 
to desist. 

All right, next question. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that since 1937 
you have produced . 

Chairman Kefauver. Excuse me just a minute. What was the time 
he operated as a furrier ? 

Mr. Chumbris. From 1933 to 1937. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Thank you. 

Mr. IvLAW. Approximately that time. I dont know the exact 

Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that since 1937 you have 
produced and distributed obscene, nude, and fetish photographs 
throughout the country by mail. I wish you would tell us about this. 

Mr, Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 
Constitution, that to answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Ivefauver. Mr. Klaw, you are directed by the subcom- 
mittee to answer. . -Hi. 

I want to state that the committee, this subcommittee, will expect 
to endeavor to have you held in contempt by the Senate, and through 
such legal and legislative procedures as may be necessary. 

Then, if held in contempt by the Senate, the matter then goes to 
the district court, where you will be tried for that, or presented to a 
£[rand jury. 

If the grand jury returns a true bill, presumably you will be tried 
unless the matter is dismissed by the district attorney. 


That will be the procedure we will endeavor to follow if you refuse 
to answer. 

Do you wish to consult your counsel ? 

Mr. Klaw. Yes. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. You say that you declme to answer under 
the fifth amendment, basing your grounds upon the fifth amendment 
to the Constitution. 

Next question, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, I have here a publication known as 
Cartoon and Model Parade, 9Tth edition, price 50 cents, published 
by Irving Klaw, and in quotes, "The Pin- Up King"— "For artists, 
photography students, and collectors." 

I show you this magazine and I would like for you to look at it care- 
fully [handing to Mr. Klaw]. 

Chairman Kefauver. Ask your question, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that you have published 
that magazine and that you have distributed throughout the United 
States photographs that have been produced 

Chairman Kefauver. The magazine speaks for itself. 

Mr. Chumbris. That have been produced by you that have been 
reflected in this particular catalog. 

Will you tell us about the pictures in that catalog and your pro- 
duction and distribution of those pictures throughout the United 
States ? 

Mr. IvLAw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 
Constitution, on the grounds that to answer may tend to incriminate 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, it is again my duty to direct you 
to answer under penalty of contempt of the Senate. Do you still 
refuse ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, do you or any company with which 
you are connected print or publish the magazine <^hat has been handed 
to you and which will now be identified an 'Exhibit A" to your testi- 
mony ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer, and if you do not 
answer this subcommittee will do everything possible to have you held 
in contempt of the Senate. 

Do you still refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 

Chairman Kefauver. Let it be marked and identified as an exhibit. 
Will you so mark it at the present time, Mr. Chumbris ? 

(The catalogue was marked "Exhibit No. 21" and is on file with 
the subcommittee. ) 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals 

Chairman Kefauver. We order that the magazine marked "Ex- 
hibit A" is made a part of the official record. 


Proceed, ^Ir. Chumbris. 

Mr. CiiuMBRTs. Mr. Klaw, our investijoation reveals that you are 
known as one of the hirgest distributors of obscene, nude, and fetish 
photographs. I wish you would tell the subcommittee about this. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefau^'er. Mr. Klaw, you are directed to answer by the 
subconnnittee under penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaav. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefatver. Mr. Chumbris, your first question was about 
his business. I should like to ask Mr. Klaw if he will tell us in what 
business he has been engaged since 1937. 

Mr. Klaw. May I consult my counsel, please? 

Chairman Kefaumlr. Very well. 

(Mr. Klaw consults with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaav. 1 decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, tliat to ansAver my tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman orders you to answer under 
penalty of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to ansAver may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefaua-er. Next question, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that you have 
been investigated by the United States Post Office Department for 
alleged violations of title 18, sections 1-161 and 1462, Avhich pertain to 
obscene matter sent through the mails. I Avish you would tell this 
subcommittee your difficulties Avith the Post Office Department. 

Mr. Klaav. I Avould like to consult with my counsel. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. Very Avell. 

(Mr. KlaAv consults Avith Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaav. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to ansAver may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauater. The chair directs you to ansAver under penalty 
of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaav. I decline to ansAver under the fifth amendment that to 
answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Senator Langer. Mr. Chairman, I should like to haA^e a recess of 
5 minutes. There is an important telephone call for me. 

Chairman Kefauver. We Avill stand in recess for 5 minutes. 

(A recess Avas taken.) 

Senator Lancer. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. We were glad to have a recess. The recess is 
now terminated. The record Avill shoAv that Senator Danger and the 
chairman are present. 

Mr. Chumbris, will you ask your next question? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, did you ever employ a teen-ager to pose 
for your fetish and nude photos that you have distributed throughout 
the United States by mail? 

Mr. Klaw^, I ask you to answer that, please. 

Mr. Klaav. I decline to answer under the grounds — under the fifth 
amendment to the Constitution, that the answer may tend to incrim- 
inate me. 


Chairman Kefauver. The chairman ^Yill order you to answer the 
question under penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let's ask this question : 

Have you ever employed any teen-agers, young people under 21 
years of age, to pose or participate in photographs, in the making of 
photographs ? 

Mr. KuAw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

C^hairman Kefauver. The chairman orders' you to answer under 
penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. KuAw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefau\er. Do you have or have you ever had a mailing 
list for send out any catalogs or information which includes teen- 
agers ? 

Mr. Klaw. I would like to speak to my counsel for a second. 

Chairman Kefauver. You may. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chaiinian Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under 
penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer inider the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to ansAver may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show that he declines to answer. 

Go ahead, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that 65 per- 
cent of your customers for movie stills are girls from (5 to 16, thereby 
creating a mailing list of a great many minors. 

Do you wish to tell the subcommittee about that mailing list? Is that 
true ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer upon 
penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment, that to 
answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that some of 
the girls who modeled for your obscene, nude, and fetish pictures have 
also posed for obscene and lewd pictures for other photographers. Is 
this true or not ? 

Mr. Klaw. I want to consult my counsel for a minute. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, you are directed to answ^er under 
penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, have you ever employed or do you 
employ any young people under 18 years of age in your business ? 

65263—55 Ki 


Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under 
penalty of contempt of the United States Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. May I consult my attorney for a second ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Yes. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. Anything else, Mr. Chumbris ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that some of your clients request 
fetish and other photographs made to order to satisfy your client's 
specific perversions, that you fulfill such requests. Is that true or not ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. We order you to answer under penalty of 
contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that you do a 
gross business of $1,500,000 a year in the production and distribution 
of nude and fetish pictures. Is that true or false ? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman will direct you to answer under 
penalty of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw\ I decline to answer imder the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, do you go under the title of "King of 
photographs," "King of the Pin-up Photographs" ? 

Mr. Klaw. May I speak to my counsel for a minute ? 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty 
of contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. KLAW^ I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution — that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that you have 
the largest collection of movie stills of any one person in the United 
States of America. Is that true or false? 

Mr. Klaw^ I would like to consult my counsel for a minute. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution — that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty of 
contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution — that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. I think that covers the field fairly well. 

Mr. Klaw, you will remain under continuing subpena and report 
back when you or your counsel is notified. 

Mr. Gangel, I think we have your address. 


Mr. Gangel. I stated it for the record last Tuesday, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. State it again. It is G-a-n-g-e-1? 

Mr. Gangel. That's right. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is your first name? 

Mr. Gangel. Coleman, C-o-l-e-m-a-n. 

Chairman Kefauver. And your address? 

Mr. Gangel. 165 Broadway. 

Chairman Kefauver. Upon notice to you, Mr. Klaw, or you, Mr. 
Gangel ? 

As v^^e leave, Mr. Klaw, I think T should advise you again that we 
expect to endeavor to have you held in contempt for refusal to answer 
some or all of these questions. 

If you wish to reconsider and give us any information about the 
subject matter which we have asked you, I will give you an oppor- 
tunity to do so at this time. 

Mr. Gangel. May I ask the chairman whether a transcript of the 
questions and answers would be available to the witness upon payment 
of the cost ? 

Chairman Kefauver. I will instruct the reporter to let the witness 
or his attorney have a copy of the transcript upon payment of the 

That is all. 

Mr. Gaughan. Mr. Chairman, may I direct the attention of counsel, 
and the attention of Mr. Klaw, to the fact that after Mr. Klaw claimed 
the privilege, he later answered a question concerning his past asso- 
ciations and business life, and then went back behind the privilege 
again and refused to answer questions. 

I think, Mr. Chairman, that that probably wnll be the position of 
this subcommittee that he relinquished his right to claim the privilege 
once he answered the question concerning his past business association. 

Mr. Gangel. Mr. Chairman, I think that points up the burden of 
counsel in advising the witness under the circumstances. 

Chairman Kefatht.r. Yes. That is Mr. Gangel's 

Mr. Gangel. Headache. 

Chairman Kefauver. I appreciate the suggestion, Mr. Gaughan; 
but that is a matter for Mr. Klaw and his counsel. 

Senator Langer? 

Senator Langer. Could I see that exhibit 21 ? 
(Exhibit 21 was handed to Senator Langer.) 

Senator Langer. No questions. 

Chairman KEFAirsTiR. Mr. Klaw, you appeared here on last Tues- 
day. At that time you were asked to bring in certain books and 
papers as described in the subpena which had been served upon you. 
You refused to do so, either under the fourth amendment or under 
the fifth amendment. 

Have you brought those books and papers in as directed ? 

Mr. Klaw\ I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 

And furthermore, under the fourth amendment to the Constitution, 
the subpena is vague and illegal. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer the question under 
penalty of contempt of the United States Senate. 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the 
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me. 


Chairman Kefauver. You have not complied witli the snbpena, Miv 
Klaw, and it is my duty to warn you that your not having complied 
with the snbpena, unless you express a willingness now to comply 
with the snbpena, that this subcommittee will do all within its power 
to have you cited for contempt by the Senate. 

Do you wish to comply with the snbpena ? 

Mr. Klaw. I would like to speak to my counsel for a second. 

Chairman Kefau\t;r. You will have that opportunity. 

(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.) 

Mr. Klaw. I wish to answer that I decline to answer under the 
fifth amendment to the Constitution, that to answer may tend to in- 
criminate me. 

And furthermore, that under tlie fourth amendment to the Consti- 
tution, that to make them available may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefau\t:jr. Again, sir, you are ordered to answer penalty 
of contempt of the Senate. 

Do you continue to decline to answer and to produce the books 
and records? 

Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment, that to 
answer may tend to incriminate me. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Gangel, I believe that is all. 

Mr. Gangel. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin. 

Chairman Kefauver. Sit down, Mr. Mishkin. 

Mr. Mishkin, you were here on last Thursday. At that time you 
were accompanied by Mr. Weiss. 

We have a note from Mr. Weiss. He called, or somebody called,, 
saying that he cannot come today because he is in a city council meet- 
ing, but he is sending Mishkin and Stone here. It would be good to 
introduce this item into the record and show that Mr. Weiss is the 
counsel man. 

Do you wish to secure any counsel to advise you upon any matters 
here ? 

Mr. MisHKix. At the present moment? 

Chairman Kefai^er. Yes. 

Mr. MisiiKix. I don't know of any. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You intend to handle it yourself? 

Mr. ^Mishkin. I have been advised by him what to sny. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have talked to your counsel and he has 
advised you what to say. You have it before you? 

Mr. Mishkin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have your instructions written out on a 
piece of paper, I understand. 

Ijet the record show that Senator Danger and the chairman are 
liere. Mr. Mishkin has returned again pursuant to snbpena. 

Mr. Chumbris, I wish you would stat« very briefly what it is that 
you expect or hope to prove by Mr. Mishkin which brings your 
questions or the information that you are eliciting Avithin the juris- 
diction of this subcommittee. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Chairman, our investigation reveals that Mr. 
Mishkin deals in pornographic material; that not only does he dis- 
tribute and sell the material but he has also been known to finance 
other persons in the distribution and sale of pornographic material.. 


Chairman Kefauver. Does this pornographic material reach chil- 
•dren ? 

Mr. Chumbris. From tlie information that we have received, this 
pornographic matei-ial reaches children throughout the many areas 
of the ITnited States. Known pornographers have received their 
particuhir pornographic material through Mr. Mishkin's sources. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is there evidence that this material contrib- 
utes or increases juvenile delinquency among the young people? 

Mr, CiruMBRis. Yes. I tliink the testimony not only here in New 
York but in other hearings is replete with testimony to the effect that 
pornography in the hands of juveniles has a terrific impact on them 
and leads them to delinquent acts. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin was asked a number of questions 
the other day. Do you have questions you wish to ask him at this 
time ? 

Mr. CiiUMBRTs. Yes ; I have, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you proceed. 

The Chair will rule, and it is the consensus of the subcommittee 
authorized to sit liere, showing what counsel would expect to prove 
by this witness has a connection with juvenile delinquency, which is 
the subject matter we are studying here. 

Mr. Chumbris, you go on with your questions. 


Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that you 
are in the business of pornography and obscene literature, and have 
heen for quite some period of time, at least 3 to 5 years. Is that true? 

Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of tlie Constitution. 

Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, this question has been asked of 
you, as others were the other day. The chairman will have to order 
you to answer this question. 

I must warn you now that your refusal to answer this question will 
force this subcommittee to consider you in contempt of the United 
States Senate, and will endeavor to take such action as is necessary to 
have it presented to the Senate which, in turn, will refer it to a district 
attorney here in this district of New York for presentment to a grand 

In other words, it will be our intention to make you pay the penalty 
for contempt of the Senate if you refuse to answer this and other 
questions which you are ordered to answer. 

Do you understand that, sir? 

Mr. MiSHKix. I refuse to answer under the innnunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer, and you still re- 
fuse to answer; is that correct? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. 

Chairman Kefau^tr. I would like to ask a question. 

Mr. Mishkin, in what business are you presently engaged? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer upon penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 


Mr. MiSHKTN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. The record will show that he still refused to 

Go ahead, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that you have 
developed your obscene-material business to the point that you manu- 
facture, you wholesale, you distribute, and you have large retail busi- 
ness of obscene material in your store ; that you also finance people to 
get into the obscene-material business. Is that true ? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer under 
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, in whatever business you may 
be engaged do you employ children ? 

Mr. IMiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 

]\Ir. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Next question, Mr. Chumbris. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that a Mr. 
Cobb borrowed $2,000 from you to get started in the obscene-picture 

Mr. Mishkin. Wliat was that name ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Cobb, C-o-b-b. He borrowed $2,000 from you 
to get started in the obscene-picture business. Is that true? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefau^ter. You are ordered to answer under penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Next question. 

Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that Mr. Cobb and you 
had a dispute and a falling out in your business relationship on the 
pornographic material. Is that true? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. I don't think that I will order him to answer 
that question. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that you have 
known distributors in Florida, in New York City, in St. Louis, Mo., 
who have distributed pornographic material to juveniles and minors. 
Is that true? 

Mr, Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer under penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 


Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefaitver. Next question. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Mr. Al Stone, alias Abraham Kubin- 
stein, alias Abraham Rubin ? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answ^er under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefau^t.r. You are ordered to answ^er under penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Next question. 

Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that you plagiarized ma- 
terial from one Irving Klaw", resulting in serious arguments with said 
Irving Klaw. Is that true or false? 

Mr. MiSHKUsr. What was that question again? 

Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that you have plagiarized 

Mr. MisiiKiN. What did I do ? 

Mr. Chumbris. You have stolen material that Mr. Klaw used — Mr. 
Irving Klaw, resulting in serious arguments with said Irving Klavv^. 

Chairman Kefauver. Plagiarized. Do you know what plagiarized 
means ? 

Mr. MisHKiN. I know what that means now ; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you w^ant to answer that question? 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer under penalty of 
being in conteniDt of the Senate. 

Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, we have some information here 
that has been brought to our attention, that allegedly you purchased 
the plates and financed Kingsley Book Store operated by a young 
man who was in here the other day, for the printing of the Nights 
of Horror. Is that true? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answ^er under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman KErAu\'ER. You are directed to answer under penalty 
of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions 
of the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, do you own outright or with other 
persons the Times Square Book Bazaar in New York City, the Little 
Book Exchange in New York City, and/or the Kingsley Book Store 
in New York City, all stores near the Times Square area in New- 
York City ? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answ^er under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 


Chairman Kefauver. Do you employ any minors, any teen-agers, 
in any business with which you are connected? 

Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You will be ordered and directed to answer 
under penalty of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. MiSHKix. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, do you permit minors and juveniles to 
peruse and/or buy obscene material that you sell in one of the three 
stores that I just mentioned — the Times Square Book Bazaar, the 
Little Book Exchange, the Kingsley Book Store, or any one of those 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under 
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. MisHKix. I refuse to answer under the immunity proA^sions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Proceed. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, how long have you been in the porno- 
graphic material business? 

Mr. INIisHKix. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penaltj' 
of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you understand what the term "fetish pictures" 
means ? 

Mr. MisHTN. I refuse to answer under the immunity proA^isions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer. 

Mr. MisiiKix. I refuse to answer under the imminiity proA'isions of 
the fiftli amendment of the Constitution. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you understand what "obscene pictures," or 
■"obscene booklets," or "obscene paper writings" mean? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefaua^r. Very well. 

Now, Mr. Mishkin, you refused to ansAver some questions on last 

Senator Danger. May I ask a question? 

Chairman Kefaiwer. Yes, Senator Danger. 

Senator Danger. Mr. "Witness, did you print or have printed, or did 
you manufacture, or did you AA^holesale or did you distribute pictures 
shoAAing a young boy about 15 having sexual intercourse with a 
girl of 14 ? 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to ansAver under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefaua'er. You are directed to ansAver under penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Mishkin, I refuse to ansAA^er under the immunity provisions. 

Chairman Kefauwer. Senator Daiiijer. 


Senator Langer. Mr. Witness, did you print or have printed, or did 
you wholesale, or did you distribute pictures showing a bulldoo; having 
sexual intercourse with a girl ap]:)roximately 15 years of age? 

Mr. INIisiiKiN, I refuse to answer under the imnuniity provisions of 
tlie fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman KEFALmsH. You are ordered to answer under penalty of 
being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, you refused to answer some 
questions the other day, and you refused to answer some today. 

The law bends over backward, or is very lenient, in giving witnesses 
the protection of the fifth amendment if they are entitled to it. I 
feel I must notify you and warn you that it will be our endeavor to 
have you cited for contempt for refusal to answer the questions the 
other day and your refusal to answer questions today, and to give you 
a final chance of doing so if you wish to do so now. 

If there are any of these questions that you want to answer, or if 
there is any explanation you want to give, we will be glad to hear 
you now. 

Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions 
of the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefaun'er. Very well, Mr. Mishkin. You will remain 
under subpena, and it may be we will want to call you again. You are 
excused now. 

Call our next witness. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shapiro, please. Mr. A. M. Shapiro. 

Chairman Kefaitver. Let us call another witness if he is not here. 

Mr. Chumbris. Is Mr. — Mr. Kaplain, Mr. Shomer received the 
subcommittee's telegram this morning. Mr. Rachstein, his counsel, 
was away for the weekend. They expect Mr. Rachstein back about 
4 o'clock. 

Chairman Kefauver. We will defer his appearance until later on. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin. 


Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, you were sworn the other day 
and testified here last Thursday, I believe; is that right? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have been notified to come back today? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. He objects to being televised. Gentlemen,, 
I will ask your indulgence. 

Mr. Rubin, you go by the name of Abraham Rubin and not Al 
Stone ? 

Mr. Rubin. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Wiich is correct? 

]Mr, Rubin. Abraham Rubin. 

Chairman Kefauver. Or is it Al Stone? 

Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin. 

Chairman Kefauver. Are you known as Al Stone sometimes ? 

Mr. Rubin. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. You never have been? 


Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin. 

Chairman Kefauver. I don't know where we got Al Stone. Have 
you ever been known as Al Stone ? 

Mr. Rubin. My name is Abraham Rubin. 

Chairman Kefauver. My question was, have you been known as 
Al Stone? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the iimnunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, you were here the other day with 
your counsel, Mr. Weiss. We got a message he had been attending 
a city council meeting. Have you conferred with him, and do you 
wish to have counsel at this time ? 

Mr. Rubin. I will go ahead. 

Chairman Kefauver. Have you conferred with Mr. Weiss — and 
you have a little piece of paper there ? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. What is on that piece of paper ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Are you i-efusing to tell me what is on the 
paper, or are you talking about what is on the paper ? 

Mr. Rubin. That is on the paper. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is what Mr. Weiss gave you to read out 
«very time you are asked a question ? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you say "Yes"? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Then you don't need Mr. Weiss here? 

Mr. Rubin. That is right. 

Chairman Kefau\"er. But if you want to have an attorney to con- 
sult with, we want to give you an opportunity to do so. Do you 
understand that ? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you want to have an attorney to consult 
with ? 

Mr. Rubin. You can postpone it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Can you get Mr. Weiss here this afternoon? 

Mr. Rubin. No. He is at a council meeting. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, what do you understand your 
imnumity privilege to be ? Do you understand your immunity under 
the fifth amendment ? What do you understand it to be ? 

Mr. Rubin. I would like to have my counsel here. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you want to wait until later on this after- 
noon ? 

Mr. Rubin. He won't be here today. 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. We have hacl no application by Mr. Weiss to 
put off any of your hearing on the ground he isn't here; but if you 
want to get him or somebody else, we will give you a while this after- 
noon to do so. Would you rather come back a little later on this 
afternoon ? Mr. Rubin, see if you can get your counsel here by 4 : 30 
or some other counsel. We will call you back at that time. 

Mr. Rubin. I won't get anybody else but Mr. Weiss. 

Chairman Kefauver. A council meeting doesn't last all afternoon. 

Mr. Rubin. I will try to get him, sir. 


Chairinaii Kefauver. You are excused until 4 : 30. We will call 
you back then. 

Wlio is our next witness ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Morris Gillman. , . o 

Chairman KErAUVER. Mr. Gillman, you have been here betore ? 

Mr. Gillman. No. t»t i j.^. tv/t 

Mr Gold. Jacob Lewis Gold, 280 Broadway, Manhattan. Mi. 
Chairman, my client objects to the television and moving pictures 

^^''^cSinnan Kefauver. All right. Mr. Gold objects on behalf of Mr. 
Gillman. I will have to ask your indulgence. 
Mr. Gold, you are counsel for Mr. Gillman? 

Mr. Gold. Yes. ^ , , , . , i i 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Gillman, I don't think you have been 
sworn. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the whole truth, so help you God? 
Mr. Gillman. I do. 


Mr. Chumbris. Your name is Morris Gillman ? 

Mr. Gillman. That is right. 

Mr. Chumbris. Where do you reside? 

Mr. Gillman. 1815 Davidson Avenue, Bronx. 

Mr. Chumbris, ^^^lat is your occupation ? 

Mr. Gillman. I am not employed right now because I am sick. 

Mr. Chumbris. How long has that been ? 

Mr. Gillman. Quite a few years. . 

Mr. Chumbris. Could you be specific? AVhat year was it>-1950, 
1951, 1952? 

Mr. Gillman. The last time I was employed was m 1952. 

Mr. Chumbris. 1952? 

Mr. Gillman. That is right. 

Mr. Chumbris. What month ? 

Mr. Gillman. It was during the summer. 

Mr. Chumbris. What type of work were you doing then? 

Mr. Gillman. It was in a dye house in Now Jersey. 

JSIr. Chumbris. What was the name of the company ? 

Mr. Gillman. Ranko Finishing Co. 

Mr. Chumbris. What type of work did you do ? 

Mr. Gillman. I was watching the goods when they were coming out 
of the machine. 

Mr. Chumbris. What salary did you make? 

Mr. Gillman. It wasn't steady. It was a couple of days a week, 
and I couldn't handle it because it was too heavy. Sometimes you 
have to lift the machine to get the goods out. 

Mr. Chumbris. How long had you been working at the Ranko Fin- 
ishing Co.? 

Mr. Gillman. A couple of months. 

Mr. Chumbris. What did you do before that time ? 

Mr. Gillman. I wasn't doing anything. I was staying home, taking 
•care of the house. I was sick. 

Mr. Chumbris. Let us see if I get this straight. You haven t been 
doing anything for the past couple of years ? 


Mr. GiLLMAX. Right. 

Mr. Chumbris. The hist job you had was with Ranko Finishing, 
and you hekl that job for 2 months? 

Mr. GillmajS'. That is right; I couldn't do it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Previous to that time what work did you do — pre- 
vious to your job at Ranko? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. I haven't been doing anything. 

Mr. Chumbris. For how many years back? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. Maybe 10 ; maybe 9 or 10 years. 

Mr. Chumbris. How have you been supporting yourself ? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. The wife has been working and supporting me. 

Mr. Chumbris. Did you bring any of your records with you? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have those with you at this time ? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let us get the records in. Wliat records do 
we have to be identified ? Catalog them so they can be turned back 
to Mr. Gillman or his attorney. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Gillman, do you know Andy Bruckner? 

Mr. Gillman. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. You have never had any business dealings with 
a person named Andy Bruckner? 

Mr. Gillman, Not that I know of. I never heard of that name 

Chairman IvEFAmTER. Andy Bruckner, who lives in New Jersey, 
who was convicted of selling filthy pictures and whatnot. 

Mr. Gillman. I don't know the man. I never heard of the name. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know anybody there who might have 
been him, or was in that business? 

Mr. Gillman. I was never in that business in my life. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Kenneth Eads ? 

Mr. Gillman. I never heard that name. 

Chairman Kefauver. If we got the wrong information about you, 
1 certainly want to apologize. The investigation had a connection 
between you and Bruckner. If you don't know him, that is something 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Gillman, do you own an automobile or did 
you own a 1950 green Ford sedan, registered in the name of Morris 
Gillman, 1815 Davidson Avenue, Bronx, New York? 

Mr. Gillman. Wlien my wife bought it, it may have been under 
my name. I don't remember. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know of your own knowledge whether you 
ever loaned that automobile to Kenneth Eads of 473 Second Avenue ? 

Mr. Gillman. I never loaned my car to anybody. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did he get the car and have it around in some 

Mr. Gillman. Nobody ever drove that car. 

Chairman Kefauvtsr. Did he get it from your wife ? 

Mr. Gillman. Nobody drove that car except mj-self and my wife. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did he get it from your wife ? 

Mr. Gillman. I don't think so. I don't know of any such name. 
Chairman Kefauver. If he had your car and got arrested with your 
car, would you know about that ? 

Mr. Glllman. That is something new to me. 


Chairman Kefauver. Is your car 4U9975 ? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. A 1950 green Ford sedan ? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. Wliat year? 
Chairman Kkfaun'er. 1950. 
Mr. GiLLMAN. I know we had a 1950 Ford. 
Mr. Chumbris. A 1950 Ford ; is that correct? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. Yes, but I don't recall the plate number. 
Mr. Chumbris. Let me make this statement, and you tell us whether 
it is true or false. On March 11, 1950, it was decided to keep Ken- 
neth Eads, of 473 Second Avenue under observation. At about 1 p. m. 
on March 11, 1950, Eads left 473 Second Avenue, carrying a carton 
and a suitcase, entered car license No. 4U9975, New York, a 1950 green 
Ford sedan registered to Morris Gillman of 1815 Davidson, Bronx, 

Mr. GiLLMAN. I don't know of such a name. 

Mr, Chumbris. Who had police department record E-1403. The 
car w^as driven by an unknown male who drove Eads to 313 West 27th, 
where Eads left the car and entered a furnished rooming house. 
Chairman Kefauver. You say you don't know Mr. Eads? 
Mr. GiiXMAN, I don't know Mr. Eads. 

Mr. Chumbris. You have no recollection of being in the car with 
the person going to that address that I mentioned ? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefaux^r. "VVliat have you ever done, Mr. Gillman? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. Before I went into the service I used to peddle ties. 
Chairman Kefauver. Peddle what ? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. Ties. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have a police record, Mr. Gillman? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. I paid a $50 fine in Jersey City. 
Mr. Chumbris. What was that for ? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. That was for peddling at that time. I will tell you 
how it happened. I went into the saloon to sell the ties, and while I 
was selling the ties there was a fellow in there selling pictures, so I 
bought about 7 or 8 pictures from him ; and then when I walked out 
the detective stopped me for a license, but I don't have any, so they 
searched me and found the pictures on me; and they arrested me at 
that time. That was in 1942. 

Chairman Kefauver. Wliat kind of pictures were they? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. They were fellows and girls. I was young at that 
time. I bought them for myself. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. CnirMKRis. Were you ever arrested in April of 1942, in Jersey 
City, charged with the sale and possession of obscene pictures — in 
Mr. GiLLMAN. I just explained to you how it happened. 
Mr. Chumbris. That was in 1942 ? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. That is correct. 

Mr. Chumbris. Was that the only time you were arrested ? 
Mr. Gillman. I was arrested a couple of times for shooting dice, 
besides that. 

Mr. Chumbris. Where was that? 
Mr. GiLLMAN. Once it was at Newark. 
Mr. Chumbris. What year ? 


Mr. G1LI.MAN. I don't recall exactly. It was in 1945. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know where Nick's shoeshine parlor 
and novelty store, in Ashburton Avenue, Yonkers, is ? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. We live right near Yonkers, and we do a lot of 
shopping around there, but I don't know anybody by the name of 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you ever meet a fellow from New Jersey 
there in the pornographic-literature business? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. Never. 

Chairman KErAUAT:R. And you don't know Mr. Bruckner? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you know a man named Joe, who is in 
that business ? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. All right. 

Mr. Chumbris. In September of 1953, were you held by the Natural- 
ization and Immigration Service ? 

Mr. GiLLMAN. I don't know what they wanted me down there for. 

Mr. Gold. There was a hearing, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Chumbris. There was a hearing. 

Chairman Kefauver. What was it about ? 

Mr. Gold. A question of these convictions, 1 for obscene literature, 
possession, in 1942 ; and 2 convictions for gambling — shooting dice. _ 

Chairman Kjepauver. It was on the revocation of his emigration 
citizenship ? 

Mr. Gold. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where were you born ? 

Mr, GiLLMAN. Quebec. 

Chairman Kefauver. You were naturalized when ? 

Mr. Gold. He was naturalized in the United States District Court, 
right here, on August 5, 1948. 

Chairman Kefauver. That was in connection with the possible rev- 
ocation of your citizenship ? 

Mr. Gold. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did they charge him with moral turpitude at 
that time? 

Mr. Gold. No, they did not. It was the question of the convictions — ^ 
the one for possession, and two for gambling. At that time we called 
the attention of the inspector conducting the hearing to the fact that 
the witness had received a discharge under honorable circumstances 
from the United States Navy. At that time the hearing was closed 
under the provisions of the Emigration and Nationality Act of 1940 
which permits a naturalization without question to an applicant dis- 
charged under honorable conditions from the Amied Forces. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Gold, Mr. Gillman was called in pri- 
marily in connection with a staff report he was associated with Mr. 
Bruckner, who has been dealing in pornographic literature extensively, 
and who was arrested and sentenced for it. 

He says he is not the right person, and this other matter apparently 
has had some connection with it in times past; but that is not the 
primary matter he was called in here about. 

Mr. Gold. I might point out to the chairman that as evidence of 
good faith Mr. Gillman and myself requested a preliminary hearing; 
before one of the counsel to the committee to ascertain what he was= 


here for, and to make his denials. He at that time Avas requested to 
tell the committee under oath the same things he had told Mr. Gaughan^ 
I think it was, and I think he has so done. 

Chairman Kefauver. Unfortunately, lack of passing information 
from one to another— it didn't get to us. Anyway, that is all for the 
present time. 

Mr. Fishman. 

Mr. Fishman, you are a good public official, and you might have to 
talk about somebody, so 1 guess I had better swear you. Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the whole truth, so 
help you God? 

Mr. FisiiMAX. I do. 


Chairman Kefauver. Let us get on with Mr. Fishman. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Fishman, will you give your full name and 
address and official capacity for the record, please ? 

Mr. Fishman. Irving Fishman; I live at 2095 Kruger Avenue; 
deputy collector of customs at the port of New York. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Fisliman, you have testified previously before 
congressional committees on your duties and responsibilities as a 
customs official? 

Mr. Fishman. I have. 

Mr. Chumbris. And their relationship to combatting the porno- 
graphic distribution? 

Mr. Fishman. I have ; that is right. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have a prepared statement ? 

Mr, Fishman. I have a prepared statement which I would like to 
refer to very briefly. 

Chairman Kefau\ter. Do you want to file your statement? 

Mr. Fishman. I have submitted to the committee a copy of this 
statement. I merely wanted to establish the relationship of customs 
to the particular problem in question. 

Chairman Kefattver. Your statement will be appended in full to 
the record. 

Mr. Chumbris. Will you please explain under what act you operate, 
and what your resi)onsibilities are? 

Mr. Fishman. Well, the present provision of the Tariff Act under 
which we operate has appeared for the first time in the Tariff Act of 
1942. The language hasn't changed very much. The specific portion 
of the section, section 305 of the Tariff Act, deals with the prohibition 
against the importation of materials considered obscene or immoral. 
Those two tests must be met before we can detain or hold or seize 
any material for violation of this provision of the law. The deter- 
mination must be first made that a book, or photograph, or magazine, 
or motion-picture film, is either obscene or immoral. 

The determination that we make is subject to review. The owner 
has the right to judicial review, and before we can forfeit the material 
a report of the facts and circumstances of seizure, and so on, is sent 
to the Ignited States attorney in the district for which the seizure 
is made. 


Mr. CnuMBRis. How much of a personnel does your office have to 
cover the many ports of the United States to stop the traffic of por- 
nography from getting into the country ? 

Mr, FiSHMAN. There are 45 customs districts in the United States. 
The detention of material as possibly objectionable is made by the 
examiners. For example, at the port of New York there is a book 
examiner who specializes in examining printed materials; and then, 
of course, we have our customs inspectors who examine the effects of 
members of the crew, baggage of incoming passengers; and we also 
have a force of inspectors who examine mail, foreign mail, which is 
turned over to the customs service by the Post Office Department for 
examination. The purpose of this is for the collection of revenue. 

In making the examination to determine the possible assessment of 
duties, these examiners will hold any material which they suspect may 
be obscene or immoral. That material is then sent to my office, where 
our group makes the final determination as to whether the material 
detained is actually violative of this section of the law. 

Mr. Chumbris. I understand that your staff has set up some new 
offices in New Orleans and San Francisco and in Chicago, or, at least, 
enlarged those offices. Elaborate on that, please. 

Mr. FiSHMAN. The purpose of these control units is primarily to 
assist in the enforcement of a Foreign Agents' Registration Act and 
deals specifically with Communist-type political propaganda. 

In connection with the examination of imported material for this 
purpose, anything found violative of the Tariff Act would also be held 
and seized and subsequently forfeited. 

Mr. Chumbris. The testimony of one of the customs officials at one 
of our community hearings stated that they are unable to ascertain 
the amount of pornography that comes into the country, and if he 
were to estimate he would place it at about 5 percent of what actually 
comes in. 

Would you like to comment on that ? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. I don't know what reference he was making, but it 
seems to me he might have been talking about our current problem — 
not current, but it has been our problem for some time, due to lack 
of adequate personnel, lack of appropriation, and so on. 

We examine, as I mentioned, such mail from abroad, such foreign 
mail, as is suspected of being dutiable. In 1953, for example, the 
Post Office Department submitted to the customs service, countrywide 
at these districts that I mentioned, approximately 28 million mailed 
parcels for examination. 

With the force available, we can look at about 5 percent of that mail. 
Probably his reference to 5 percent may have been to the part that 
we can examine. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have jurisdiction over the ships that come 
in at different ports ? 

Mr. FiSHMAX. Yes. We make a search of the quarters of the crews ; 
the seizures that come up as a result of that are frequent. Of course, 
we make an examination of the effects of passengers coming into the 
United States. 

Mr. Chumrbis. Then lack of personnel is one of the problems that 
your agency has ? 

Mr. FisHMAN. Yes. 


. Mr. Chumbris. Could you recommend to this subcommittee any 
amending legislation, or the amount of increased appropriation, that 
might l)e needed to properly meet this problem ? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. Any observation that I might have must, of course, be 
strictly my own. 1 am not authorized to speak for the Treasury De- 
partment. Actually, the Treasury Department, Bureau of Customs, 
did apply for an increase of appropriation for the purpose of coping 
with this mail examination problem. 

It looks as though this next fiscal year we may have some additional 
help for that purpose. 

That, of course, is only one problem. The other feature of it is the 
difficulty of administering some of the provisions of the existing law, 
due to the difficulty of reaching a conclusion as to what is obscene. The 
courts have not been very clear. We find it a little difficult to operate. 

Then, of course, there is the natural apathy of the public. The job 
of detaining or examining merchandise to ascertain whether it is 
obscene is not a very popular type of thing. Anybody who acts in the 
capacity of a censor, or if the w^ord "censorship" is used, you are using 
a dirty word. It is a little difficult to come up wdth a real definition of 
what constitutes obscenity. 

We have a number of problems. One of them was referred to in 
prior testimony. It deals with this problem of what is a nudist 
magazine and what is a magazine which may be considered obscene. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any exhibits there of seizures you have 
made through your various offices? 

Mr. FisHMAN. We have some samples of some of the things that we 
have been doing a little discussion with. Some of these things have 
been found objectionable and some have not. I brought along a few 
samples of the type of imported art study publications that we are con- 
stantly battling with. These are printed abroad. There are plenty 
of them printed in this country. This type of thing is alleged to be 
used by photographers and students of art. 

Then we have the group of sunbathing type magazines, which give 
us a lot of difficulty. And then, of course, we have the type of foreign 
publications which we have found objectionable, as being porno- 

I have also brought along for examination by the committee some 
of the situations that w^e have been able to correct. For example, 
it was a popular thing, and still is for time to time, a piece of business 
to advertise in college publications, that you can send away and buy 
various types of photographs, and a sample of the type of photograph 
you can buy is sent along. You can order by number. 

If you order and your money happens to get through to the foreign 
country, they will send you these photogi'aphs. Whenever we find 
a concerted move to buy this type of thing, w^e notify the Post Office 
Department, which issues a fraud order, and we stop the money from 
leaving the United States to these foreign countries. 

One of the things we are alert to and try to keep under control 
is the importation of negatives. The importation of one negative can 
result in the production of a couple of thousand copies in this country. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have many negatives that you have been 

Chairman Kefauver. They will be filed as exhibits; also the nega- 
tives. ^Ye will return them later, if you would like to have them. 

65263—55 17 


Mr. FiSHMAN. Some of them we would like to have back for our 
evidence. We have recently made some large seizures. 

Chairman KEFAU^^^.R. What do you call a large seizure? 

Mr. FisHMAN. A couple of thousand negatives and prints, and so 
on, and so forth — various assortments. For example, this sort of 
thing. These are negatives and they are in series — complete series 
of photographs which are subsequently printed and made into a book. 
One set of these negatives can result in the production of a heck of 
a lot of books. 

These, of course, are from a current seizure and we would like to 
get them back. 

Chairman Kefau%t:r. Are they mainly pornogi-aphic? 

Mr. Fishman. Yes. Some of them are not only pornogi'aphic but 
they are filthy. I don't think we would have any difficulty proving 
these are obscene. 1 put these aside separately and I would like to 
get them back, if we could. 

Chairman KEFAm^ER. Where do most of these things come from, 
Mr. Fislmian? 

Mr. Fishman. Oh, the nudist-type magazine; they are generally 
shipped from France and Sweden. We get some from Finland, some 
from Germany. It is pretty difficult to pinpoint them; they come 
from all over. 

Chairman Kefauver. Where do the films come from? 

Mr. FisHarAX. We have difficulty with the commercial type of 
motion-picture film, but that is generally not as hard to handle. 
The real obscene type of film, we i)ick that sort of thing up infre- 
quently. We have a little difficulty with that. 

We had 1 seizure some time ago of about 3,000 feet of film on 1 reel, 
and about half of it was made u]) of Mickey Mouse movies, and if our 
inspector hadn't been persistent enough to run the entire thing about 
halfway into the reel, he would never have found any of the objection- 
able material. Obviously, that was prepared with a view of getting 
it by us. Our surveillance is pi-etty tight and they very seldom at- 
tempt to smuggle commercial obscene motion-picture film into the 
United States. 

Chairman Kefauver. As I understand it, on letters and things of 
that sort, you have a staff that can only look at about 5 percent; is 
that right? 

Mr. Fishman. That is correct. We make a segregation of it. Our 
people are pretty expert in determining from the size of the package 
and the shipper what it contains. They try to segregate anything 
which looks like it might be questionable, so that we do have a look 
at it. The fact remains that we can only reach about 5 percent of all 
of this imported mail. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is there an effort made to send a great deal 
of this stuff into the United States ? 

Mr. Fishman. It ebbs and flows, depending on the situation in the 
country. Every time the courts are apt to become liberal in their 
interpretation of what is objectionable, there is an increase in this 
type of thing. 

^ Chairman Kefauver. When the courts crack down, then there isn't 
much of it that comes in ? 

Mr. Fishman. That is right. As a result of some of the recent/ 
rulings on motion-picture film, there was an increase of foreign mo- 


tion-picture film into the United States, which we ordinarily would 
hold up, which we did still hold up. 

Chairman Kefauv'er. As a result of the Supreme Court decision, 
has there been an increase? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. That didn't help us very much, although we haven't 
changed our vieAvs as a result of the ruling. 

Chairman Ivefauver. You were not ruling out "just are," anyway, 
were you ? 

Mr. FisHMAN. No. 

Chairman Kefauver. Whom are these consigned to when they come 
over here ? 

Mr. FisHMAN. There are a number of dealers in this area, and also 
in areas throughout the United States, who receive commercial lots of 
this type of magazine. They will, continue to bring in the type that 
we will pass, and periodically will attempt to increase the number of 
new magazines that they will produce. Some of them have been 
held as strictly obscene, and those they stopped. 

It is a constant cat and mouse situation. As we hold them up, 
they go on to new publications and new titles. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you have a list available of the most fre- 
quent consignees? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. We can make up such a list. 

Chairman Kefauver. Make it up and we will make it an official part 
of the record. Also, describe the kind of material that is being con- 
signed to them. 

Where is it paid for? Is it paid for upon delivery — that is, the 
freight ? 

Mr. FisHMAX. It is usually shipped pursuant to a letter of credit 
so that the funds are turned over to the shipper as soon as the shipment 
leaves the foreign country. 

Chairman Kefaua^er. After it reaches the port of New York and 
the port of Boston, and the port of New Orleans, then it is shipped on, 
or is it usually received in the port ? 

Mr. FisiiMAx. i would assimie, judging by the quantities, that it is 
distributed througliout the United States. 

Chairman Kefauver. And then shipped further by truck or auto- 
mobile ? 

Mr. FiSHMAx. By truck or automobile^ — anything to avoid the Post 
Office Department. 

(Chairman Kefauver. They don't send this through the mails? 

Mr. FisiiMAx. Not so far as we know. 

Chairman Kefauver. I take it if the same ruler were applied to 
material shipped in as is applied to what is sent through the mails, a 
lot of this wouldn't get by ? 

Mr. FisHMAN. That is right. 

Chairman Kefai^ver. If you had the same definition under the 
customs statute that you have in the postal statute, you would be 
relieved of a whole lot of headaches? 

Mr. FisiiMAx. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you reconunend that be done? 

Mr. FiSHMAx. I do. 

Chairman Kefauver. I can't see the logic prohibiting something 
from going tlirougli the mail, and at the same time letting it come in. 

Mr. FiSHMAx. It has been a loophole for a long time, but while it 


has been called to the attention of many groups and committees up 
until now nothing has been done about it. We testified to much the 
feame problem before another committee, and I think the Post Office 
Department and the Postmaster General will have lots to say on the 
same subject. 

Chairman Kefauver. That would be legislation that would stop a 
lot of it, and help you with your troubles ? 

Mr. FiSHMAN, That is correct. 

Chairman Kefauver. I am looking here at some of the big seizures 
that you have made of 6,000 cases, or books or what. 

Mr. FiSHMAN. May I see the photograph? 

Chairman Kefauver. I was looking at some of the figures. The 
importer and the size of the seizures you have made. 

Mr. FisrorAN. Well 

Chairman Kefauxt^r. There are about 15 or 18 of them, and all of 
them seem to have been released except 2 of them. 

Mr. FiSHMAN. They represent this so-called art type of magazine. 
The ones that we have indicated as being released. 

Chairman Kefauver. Sun Reviews, and so forth? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. I brought along some of that type of publication. 

Chairman Kefaiwer. Do we ship much of this stuff out of the 
United States to other nations? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. I am afraid I couldn't answer that question. 

Chairman Kefaiwer. That doesn't come under your jurisdiction? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. We have some control over exports, but we don't 
look for that sort of thing. 

Chairman Ivefauver. These photographs show how it is received ? 

Mr. FiSHMAN. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefau\-er. Let them be identified and be put in as ex- 

(The photographs were marked "Exhibit 22," and are on file with 
the subcommittee.) 

Chairman Kefauver. You have a fine service, and you do your work 
and sometimes get a little cooperation and a little praise. I hope this 
subcommittee can help get this law in shape so that your enforcement 
problem will be easier. . 

Senator Danger. The Senate last year passed a law prohibiting 
transportation by automobile and by plane. It didn't pass the House. 
I want the witness to know that it has had some consideration down 
there in Washington. 

Chairman Kefaumsr. I think you will be interested in knowing as a 
result of the work of this subcommittee we have a bill through the 
Senate prohibiting the shipment in automobiles, strengthening our 
customs laws and postal laws, and it has been over in the House, and 
since the hearings started up here the House Judiciary Committee 
has brought out the bill favorably, so it looks like we may get some 
action in this session of Congress. 

We want to encourage you in your work and we appreciate you 
telling us your problems. 

We will* keep these exhibits separate and return them to you. 

Thank you very much. 

Let's have about a 5-minute recess at this time. 

(A short recess was taken.) 

Chairman Kefauver. ^Vlio is the next witness ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shomer or Mr. A. M. Shapiro. 


Chairman Kefau\ter. Mr. Shomer or Mr. Shapiro. 

We will let the siibpena be made part of the record and. Mr. Mar^ 
shal, will you notify Mr. Shapiro if he is not here before the hearing 
closes this afternoon he will be held in contempt for failing to answer 
the subpena ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Has Mr. Shomer come yet ? 

Joseph Piccarelli ? 

Chairman IvEFAmT^R. Mr. Chumbris, will you check which wit- 
nesses appeared and which ones are missing? 

Mr. Butler, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be 
the whole truth, so help you God ? 


Mr. Chumbris. Give your full name and address, and your official 
title for the record, please. ^ 

Lieutenant Butler. George Butler, 6447 Vehisco Street, Dallas, 
Tex., investigator for the committee. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show Lieutenant Butler is on 
loan from the Dallas Police Force, and he is one of the outstanding 
police officers in Dallas. We had him on loan for our Senate Crime 
Investigating Committee, where he did a very remarkable job, and we 
appreciate him being with us now. 

Also, he has acted in the investigation of the waterfront problems 
here, some of which were presented by our committee, and most of 
which were brought out by the New York Crime Commission. 

Proceed. . o- • 

Mr. Chumbris. Lieutenant Butler, you know one Simon Simring 
operating in the southern part of the United States 'i 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Ciii' mbris. Did you investigate that particular matter ? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Is Simon Simring under subpena of this subcom- 
mittee ? 

liieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Mr. (yiiuMBRis. Would you please explain why he isn't here? 

lieutenant Buixer. The United States marshal hasn't been able 
to locate him. 

Mr. Chumbris. Have you personally investigated the Simring 
matter ? 

lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chi'ivibris. Will you please tell us now in your own words the 
result of the investigation ? 

Lieutenant Butler. Well, to condense the investigation, I have 
draAvn up a little brief on it. If it is permissible, I would like to 
read it into the record. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. Lieutenant Butler. These facts you 
know of your own knowle<%e from your official investigation? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Ki:fauver. Go ahead and read the report. 

Lieutenant Butler (reading) : 

This man is regarded as one of the largest dealers in pornography in the 
southeastern section of the Nation. While no complete rundown on this subject 
is available at this time, it is known that he was arrested in St. Petersburg, 


Fla., on April 23, 1952, for possession of obscene literature, film, and other 

At that time he gave his address as 540 Northwest 39th Street, Miami, Fla. 
While out on bond in this case Simring was arrested on July 19, 1953, in Johnson 
City, Tenn., on a similar charge. Apparently he forfeited the $54.50 cash bond 
in this case. No disposition is shown. 

On February 11, 1953, he was arrested with another large load of lewd and 
obscene material in Atlanta, Ga. 

On April 23, 1953, he was charged on four counts in connection with this case. 
He was fined $1,000 and given 12 months on each count, all sentences being 
suspended. Still another charge resulting from this arrest was nolle prossed 
on December 16, 1953 (Exhibit 1 — Police Record from Atlanta, Ga.). 

Simring went to trial in the St. Petersburg court on June 24, 1953. He was 
sentenced to 4 years in Judge Bird's court. This trial was a result of charges 
filed against him on the arrest and seizure in that city on April 23, 1952. He 
appealed his case and was released on bond (letter from J. R. Reichert, chief of 
police in St. Petersburg, Fla., entered as exhibit 2 with police mug of Simring). 

While out on bond in the St. Peter.sburg case, and under susijended sentences 
in 3 counts in Atlanta, Ga., Simring was arrested on April 30, 1955, in Orange- 
burg, S. C. A very large seizure of pornography material was maae by the 
Orangeburg police department, and an outstanding investigation of Simring 
was made by Police Chief T. E. Salley. This investigation is still in progress. 

In this seizure were 134 rolls of obscene film, S-millimeter and l(>-millimeter ; 
1,276 folders of lewd and obscene photographs, 12 in a folder ; 512 folders of 
obscene photographs, 20 in a folder ; 663 stereo slides of obscene nature ; 1,900 
color slides of nudes and suggestive poses : 61 books of printed material and pic- 
tures, "Permanent Virgin" and "Switcli"; .330 boolcs of very lewd printed mate- 
rial with illustrations titled "Alcohol," "Search," "Dark Paths," and "Nora's 
Sister" ; 120 envelopes containing 10 each very lewd pictures ; 567 various rubber 
novelties (inventory's exhibit 3). 

A large roadmap of the southeastern section of the United States was found 
in possession of Simring — 175 cities and towns were circled on this map (see 
exhibit 4 with page listing cities). 

Simring was also in possession of customer list with 243 names listed. He had 
a card index file reflecting customer and contacts in 21 States and Washington, 
D. C. The index file carried 1,194 names. It is interesting to note that the list 
contained names and addresses of well-known dealers in the pornography racket, 
including : 

Stanley Jablonski, 3510 Washington Avenue, Jacksonville, Fla. 

Louis Shomar, 1541 East Fifth Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

Harvey Brill, Baltimore, Md. 

Red Florence, care of ABC Film Co., Houston, Tex. 

Ike Dorfman, Baltimore, Md. 

Frank Adler, 368 West 57th Street, New York City. 

It will be interesting to note, at this point, that a lead furnished by this sub- 
committee out of Simring's address book resulted in a large iwrnography raid 
on E. "Red" Florence, 9362 Friendly Road, in Houston, Tex., by Sheriff C. V. 
Buster Kerns and Chief Deputy Lloyd Frazier. The outstanding work and 
cooperation of Sheriff Kerns and his staff is to be commended. 

A comparison of the material seized from Simring shows it to be the same type 
handled by Lewis C. Allen, arrested in Memphis, Tenn. ; Eddie Levy, arrested 
in Connecticut ; Abraham llubin and Al Stone, arrested in Detroit, Mich ; Arthur 
Herman Sobel, arrested in Rhode Island ; Wyman Parr, arrested in Atlanta, Ga. ; 
Abe Rotto, arrested in Brooklyn, N. Y. ; Casimer Wargula, arrested in Buffalo 
N. Y. ; and Eddie Mishkin, arrested in the New York area. 

Simring is out now on a 30-day leave, his sentence, and it was during 
this period we tried to get a hold of him but were unable to do so. 

Chairman Kefauver. I understand, Mr, Butler, he has been under 
probation in Atlanta, and was found doing business and arrested in 
Johnson City and somewhere else ? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. From the time he was arrested in St. 
Petersburg, Fla., he was arrested in Tennessee, Atlanta, Ga., and 
Orangeburg, S. C. He was out on bond in the St. Petersburg case. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let these charts concerning Simring's opera- 
tions be inserted here. 

• -V ^- 


Copy of the original road map taken from one Simon Simring at Orangeburg, South Carolina, April 30, 1955, 









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Chairman Kefaiwer. Anything; else, Mr. Chnmbris ? 

Your investigation showed him to be one of the hirgest ones operat- 
ing in the southern part of tlie country ? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes. These people seemed to have a definite 
territory that they operate in. It is more or less like a traveling sales- 
man in any other business. They have a regular route that they 

Chairman Kefal^er. This Houston, Tex., gang that was busted up 
as a result of this lead, was that a substantial one ? 

Lieutenant Blttler. Yes, sir; that was a large seizure. 

Chairman KErAU\'ER. Who was the man that ran that ? 

Lieutenant Butler. E. Eed Florence. 

Chairman Kefauver. He has recently been convicted ? 

Lieutenant Butler. No; he was recently arrested. He is under 
charges in Houston, Tex., as of now. 

Chairman Kefau\"er. Senator Langer, any questions ? 

Senator Langer. They divided up the territory ? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. They seemed to o])erate in various 
territories like that, and they get to be known ; they are shipped around 
to some territory where tlieir faces are not known. 

Senator Langer. Could 3'ou furnish the subcommittee with a map 
to show how it is divided and who is boss in each district ? 

Lieutenant Butler. I don't have that information yet. Here is a 
man operating in a southern section; here is a man operating more to 
the Midwest. This shows in eft'ect the places that were covered by the 
raid in Houston, Tex. Up here is shown the same cities were marked 
where pornography was sold to juveniles, in the cities in the black 
here — the Southwest distributorship here. 

Over here, in this Baltimore deal, the stuff coming to Xew York, 
and is being parceled out all over the United States. 

Chairman Kefauver. That is from Baltimore ? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. The stuff is sent to these distributors, 
which would be called a wholesaler, and it is our understanding that 
each one of these people sell material in that area that they work. 

Senator Langer. Would you go so far that a few men have a monop- 
oly on this business ? 

Lieutenant Butler. They are trying to get it. 

Senator Langer. Senator Kefauver would be very interested in 
that. Have you got considerable evidence that it is divided up in 
territories ? 

Lieutenant Blttler. Yes, sir. They seem to work a vast territory 
like this. Each man has a different locality. They don't seem to en- 
croach on each other's territory. 

Chairman Kefauater. We will go further into this in our Los 
Angeles hearings. We have some information already as to opera- 
tions in the western part of the country. After those hearings have 
been completed, I think we will be able to get a nationwide picture 
of operations, some of whioli we do not have established in our testi- 
mony as yet. 

Mr. Chumbris. Lieutenant, have you examined any of the films and 
pictures that have been confiscated fi'om Simring? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Have you observed the age of some of the actors 
in those films and pictures ? 


Lieutenant Butler. In Simring's seizure, I don't recall any juve- 
niles. There is evidence that the same type of material distributed 
by Simring has been picked up on various school grounds in the sec- 
tion that he operated in. 

Mr. Chumbris. Then his material has gotten to the juveniles in 
those areas? 

Lieutenant Butler. The same type of material ; yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you have some of the samples that you 
can make exhibits here? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let them be marked as exhibits. 

They will be ])art of the record here. 
Lieutenant Butxer. The film that he had 

Chairman Kefauver. Make them exhibits, too. 

(Sam})]es T)f pornography were marked "Exhibit No. 23," and 
are on file with the subcommittee.) 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know of your own knowledge that some 
more film that has been picked up from Simring had been sent to 
tlie subcommittee in Washington? 

Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you don't know of your own knowledge 
wliether there were any minors being participants in those films? 

Lieutenant Butler. No, sir; I haven't seen them. 

Chairman Kefauver. Any questions. Senator Langer? 

Senator Langer. Do you have any evidence at all that women are 
mixed up in this business ? 

Lieutenant Bltler. Yes, sir. They play an important part in the 
posing of these pictures. You mean in the distribution of it, Senator ? 

Senator Langer. What I want to know is whether there were any 
women mixed up in the manufacturing, printing, mailing it, dis- 
tributing it? 

Lieutenant Butler. No, the only women we know of so far are the 
women that posed for the pictures. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you. Lieutenant Butler, very much. 
We appreciate your good work in this other field. 

Mr. Chumbris. Has Mr. Weiss come in yet, the attorney for Mr. 
Kubin ? 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Eubin, you come back around here. 

You have been in touch with your counsel ? 

Mr. Rubin. I have tried to get in touch with him, but he wasn't in. 

Chairman Kefauver. He hasn't called to ask for any delay or ex- 
tension of the hearing? 

Mr. Rubin. He told me to ask you, but if it is all right with you, 
1 want to go ahead with it. 

Chairman Kefauver. Are you ready to go ahead? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have got it written out there? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes. 

Chairman Kefauver. You have got your counsel's advice on a piece 
of paper; is that right? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, will you make a brief state- 
ment about the nature of your questions, and what you expect to bring 
out by the testimony of Mr. Rubin, or have you done that ? 


Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that Mr. Abraham Rubin, 
alias Al Rubin, alias Abraham Rubinstein, alias Stoney Rubin White, 
alias Al Stone, is one of the large distributors of pornography through- 
out the United States, that he has contacts in many of the cities such 
as Chicago, St. Louis, New York City, Washington, D. C, Jackson- 
ville, Fla. ; he has been connected with E. Red Florence, of Houston, 
Tex., and Simon Simring, of Miami, Fla., as well as Eddie Mishkin, 
who was here this afternoon. 

We have information that this pornographic material is distrib- 
uted and gets into the hands of juveniles and definitely has an impact 
on youth and juvenile delinquency. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is it distributed across State lines? 

Mr. Chumbris. It is distributed across many State lines. At least 
20 States have been listed in areas where Al Stone distributes this 
pornographic material. The police chiefs of Detroit and Chicago 
were here and testified, and they definitely know of the operations of 
Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin, as well as Inspector Blick, who also 
testified during the course of these hearings. 

Chairman Kefauver. Their testimony is in the record and if nec- 
essary it will be made part of any special record. 

You ask Mr. Stone any questions you have to ask him. 


Mr. Chumbris, Will you please give your full name and address for 
the record again, please? 

Mr. Rubix. Abraham Rubin, 1639 41st Street, Brooklyn. 

Mr. Chumbris. Are you also known as Al Stone ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of tlie Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, you have been here in the hearing 
room when we have had other witnesses who have taken the fifth 
amendment. We don't want to deny it to you or to any other witness 
whose testimony would, indeed, tend to incriminate you. It seems 
to me this is a proper question. The purpose of this subcommittee will 
be to ask that the full committee cite you for contempt if you refuse 
to answer this question. It will then be sent to the district atorney, 
who will present it to the grand jury, if he wishes to, and there will be 
a trial if a true bill is found. 

I feel that I must warn you of the intention of this subcommittee, 
and also order you to answer that question. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show that Mr. Rubin has a 
piece of paper that he is reading from. 

Ask him the next question. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, alias Mr. Stone 

Chairman Kefau\t:r. Just say Mr. Rubin. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, do you know Frank Leno, alias Frank 
Uderri, of Chicago, 111.? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. The chairman orders you to answer under 


Mr. KuBix, I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
tlie fifth amendment of tlie Constitution. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Stanley Jablonski, of Jacksonville, 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let's ask the question in a different way. Do 
you know Stanley Jablonsky, who is purported to have some connec- 
tion with pornogi-aphic literature, in Jacksonville, Fla. ? 

Mr. Rubin. 1 refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under 
the penalty of being in contempt of the United States Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. What business are you in ? 

Mr. Rubin, I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman KEFAu^'ER. In any business that you might be in, do you 
employ children or teen-agers? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are oi'dered and directed to answer under 
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You know what the immunity provision is? 

Mr. Rubin. My rights of the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are fully apprised of your rights and the 
j)enalties that go with the refusal to answer ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Will you tell us, Mr. Rubin, what information 
you have about what the fifth amendment is'^ 

Mr. Rubin. Constitutional rights. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did you talk with your lawyer about it ? 

Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Who wrote out this piece of paper where you 
have that ? 

Mr. Rubin. My lawyer. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did the lawyer just tell you to read that when- 
ever you were asked a question ? 

Mr. Rubin. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. Is that right? 

Mr. Rubin. That is right. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are answering some questions. Did he 
say to you "Use your own judgment"? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Senator Danger. Do you know who is the President of the United 


Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Senator Langer. Did you ever hear of Abraham Lincoln ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of tlie Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. We will order to direct you to answer that 
question under penalty of bein^ in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amencbnent of the Constitution. 

Mr. CiiuMBRis. Mr. Rubin, I hand you an exhibit, which contains a;, 
front-face photograph and side-view photograph with "Department 
of Police, Detroit, No. 109385, FBI No. ()08419, in the name of Abra- 
ham Rubin," and I show it to you, and ask you if you can identify 
that ? Do you have any knowledge of that photograph ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer undei- the imminiity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chainnan Kefauver. The Chairman orders you to answer under 
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immuuity proAnsions of the 
fifth amendment of the (Constitution. 

Chairman Kkfaiver. This has been made part of the record, and 
will be filed as an exhibit. 

Mr. Rubin, I think you ought to understand that the fifth amend- 
ment is for the real protection of people when they are called upon 
to testify. It is not a provision that is to be used just for coving up 
or to prevent a Senate committee from securing facts that it is entitled 
to have. Our purpose here is to get information. I think you ought 
to think seriously about what you are doing here today. 

Is there anything that you will tell us about your business, Mr. 
Rubin ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the imnuniity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are directed and ordered to and under 
penalty of being held in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I i-efuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution, 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, I show you a record of the Detroit Police 
Department, No. 109385, in the name of Abraham Rubin, FBI No. 
608419, and attached thereto is a photo, one is a side view, one is a front 
view^, the front-view picture contains a notation "Detroit Police, 
5-19-53," with the number of 109385, which is consistent with the 
number that I just read, of the Detroit Police Department. I show it 
to you and ask you if you can identify it, and if that is your picture? 

Mr. Rubin. 1 refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Keiauver. Let the exlnbit which counsel asked about, be 
marked so that we can see what it is. 

You are ordered and directed to answer the question under penalty 
of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. RuTBiN. I refuse to answer under the innnunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Mr. Chumbris. May I introduce into the record a road map of the 
Northeastern part of the United States ? 


Chairinaii Kefauv'er. That will be introduced into the record today. 

Mr. CiiUMHRis. Mr. Rubin, I have here an AAA road map, Ameri- 
can Automobile Association, covering the Northern States, and in this 
map it shoves circles in a reddish purple color, with circles marked 
around the cities of New York, Richmond, Va ; Louisville, Ky. ; St. 
Louis, Mo. ; Indianapolis, Ind. ; Fort Wayne, Ind., an area covering 
the cities of Michiaan City, New Bulfalo, Michigan City being in 
Indiana, and New Buffalo being in Michigan; Detroit, Mich., and in 
the same map there is a green road identification covering those same 
cities which indicates a route map prepared by the AAA for those 

Have you ever seen this particular map before, and was it not taken 
from your possession by the Detroit police department ? 

Chairman KErAU\TER. Ask the first cjuestion. 

Mr. CiiUMBRis. Have you seen this map before ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefaui^er. You are ordered to answer under the penalty 
of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

(^hairman Kefauver. Let it be Exhibit 24. 

(The map Avas marked "Exhibit No. 24," and is on file with the 

I think you said it was found in his car, and other evidence shows 
that ]Mr. Rubin was in these towns set forth on the map. 

Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. 

Chairman Kefaum^r. All right. 

Mr. Chumbris. I again show you this particular map, and wasn't 
this map, marked "Exhibit No. 24," covering the cities heretofore 
mentioned, the same map tliat was taken from your car, in your pos- 
session, on or about the 19th day of May 1953 by the Detroit, Mich., 
police department? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty of 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Senator Langer. Mr. Chairman, I note that Mr. Abraham Rubin 
got 6 months susj^ended sentence in Poughkeepsie for possessing ob- 
scene literature, in 1982, on November 23. 

On the 24th of February, 1923, he was fined $250 and costs, and a 
suspended sentence of 6 months in jail, at Darien, Connecticut. 

On the 4th day of May, 1933, he was sentenced to 3 months in Erie 
County Penitentiary, in Buffalo, N. Y. 

On the 5th day of April, 1933, for violating section 1141 of the 
United States Code, he got 3 months. 

I find, on the 14th day of February, 1934, according to the Detroit 
police record, for possessing obscene literature, he got a $75 fine or 30 
days in the county jail in New York. 

In 1934, for possessing obscene literature, he got 30 days in Provi- 
dence, R. I. 


On the 4th day of July, 1934, for possessing obscene literature, he got 
30 days and costs. 

On the 18th day of May, 1953, for possessing obscene literature in 
Detroit, Mich., he got $100 and 90 days in jail. 

It seems to me that if that be the record, we should draw up legisla- 
tion that would provide for a second and third and fourth offense that 
the penalty be more stringent. If this record is correct — and there is 
no reason to believe that it is not, we find here after the sixth offense for 
possessing obscene literature, Mr. Rubin received a $100 fine or 90 days 
in jail. 

In New York we have the Sullivan law — we have a law which pro- 
vides for four felonies a man gets life. Yet we have the absurd situ- 
ation where, for a sixth offense, a man pays a $100 fine. 

Chairman Kefauver. Your comments and suggestions are good. 
Senator Langer, and I agree with you that a man with this long record, 
still showing no heavy penalties, is not very effective law enforcement. 

It may be that these different places did not know about his previ- 
ous record, but certainly as to Federal convictions, to the extent that it 
comes under the Federal law, will, in the future — I will ask the staff 
to consider and make a study of just what we can do to have some more 
severe penalties as time goes on. 

Senator Langer. I will be happy to be a cosponsor. 

Chairman Kefauver. Thank you. We will cosponsor it together. 

Mr. Rubin, let me see if I can get clear again just what your lawyer 
told you with reference to pleading this fifth amendment. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the 
fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Senator Langer. Did I hear you say your lawyer was a member of 
the city council of the city of New York ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Did the attorney advise you to invoke your 
privilege on every question that was asked ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Do you mean that the advice your attorney 
gave you might incriminate you if related to this committee? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. What did your lawyer say to you in his 
office at that time when you went to him for counsel ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefau\'er. You mean again to say that any advice you 
may have gotten would cause you any trouble if related here, that it 
might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Any other questions? 

Mr. Chumbris. I have just one more exhibit. 

Chairman Kefauver. All right. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, I have here a photostatic copy of a 
name and address book of Al Stone, also known as Abraham Rubin, 
which address list has in it numerous names, one of which is Abe 


Rotto, New York City; another, Eddie, telephone number, 
SP 9-3384 

Chairman Kefafvek. Let it be filed as an exhibit — and ask him 
about it. 

(The address book was marked "Exhibit No. 25," and is on file with 
the subcommittee.) 

Chairman Kefauver, Do you know anything about that list? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
tlie fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer 
imder penalty of being in contempt of the Senate. 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the purported address book be made an 

Mr. Rubin, I want you to understand again that the members of 
tliis subcommittee do not intend to let you get by with your refusal 
to answer questions propounded to you here. Complaints have come 
to us, in correspondence, that you are one of the biggest operator 
in this despicable pornography field in the whole United States; 
that you have connections with people all over the country ; that you 
have been in this business a long time. You seem not to have learned 
any lesson from this long list of arrests and convictions. It is unfor- 
tunate that you do not appreciate the damage that your kind of 
business is doing to the young people in this country. 

I want to tell you again tliat we expect to do everytliing in our 
power to secure a contempt proceeding against you, unless you, at 
this time, want to answer questions and tell us what the subcommittee 
has a right to know — in other words, purge yourself of any possible 

Do you have anything further you want to say ? 

Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of 
the fiftli amendment of the Constitution. 

Chairman Kefauver. You remain under subpena, and you will be 
hearing from this committee and other officials later on. 

Mr. Shomer, Avill you come around? 


Mr. Sliomer has been here. Mr. Chumbris, do you have anything 
else you want to ask him? 

Mr. Chumbris. Since you were on the stand the other day 

C'liairman Kefauver. That was last Thursday. 

Mr. Chumbris. Last Tluu'sday, to be exact, we have received some 
additional information tliat we would like to have your comment on, 
I believe you testified tliat you are in the real estate business at this 
time ? 

Mr. Sh(»mer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ChI'Mbris. How long have you been in the real estate business? 

Mr. Shomer. About 2 months. 

Mr. Chumbris. I believe you testified that you have no further in- 
terest in i)()rnographic matters; is that correct? 

Mr. Sii<):\!ER. Re}jeat the (luestion. 

Chairman Kefauver. He wants to know if you have any further 
connection with any pornographic literature business. 


Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Chairman KErAu\TER. Is your answer "No" ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Chairman Kefauver. Are you answering the question? 

Mr. Shomer. I am answering "No." 

Mr. Chu3ibris. Mr. Shomer, from our investigation, it reveals that 
last year you traveled by automobile to the State of New York, Port 
Chester, to be exact, and at- Port Chester, at a Safeway store, at the 
parking lot, transferred some pornographic material in large quanti- 
ties to another person. 

Is that true or false? 

Mr. Shomer. That is false. I have never been to Port Chester. I 
don't even know where it is. 

Mr. Chumbris. That statement that I just made, then, in your 
opinion, is false; is that correct? 

Mr. Shomer. I have never been in Port Chester. 

Chairman Kefauver. Or any place around there ? 

Mr. Shomer. I don't know the area. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shomer, did you ever make any transfer of 
pornogi^aphic material in any parking lot of a grocery store or a 
drug store? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And any information that you have done such is 
false ; is that your statement ? 

Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shomer, do you know Edgar Maynard Levy? 

Mr. Shomer, No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. You do not ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chu:mbris. Do you know of one Edgar Maynard Levy, who 
lives on Tinker Drive, Long Island, now living in Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris, Do you know anyone on Tinker Drive in Long 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Ciiu:mbris, Mr, Shomer, have you ever done any business with 
Eddie Mishkin? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr, Chumbris, Have you ever done any business with Al. Stone? 

Mr, Shomer, No, sir, 

Mr, Chumbris, Alias Abraham Kubin ? 

Mr, Shomer, No, sir. 

Mr, Chumbris, Were you here when the witness prior to you 

Mr, Shomer, Yes, sir, 

Mr, Chumbris, Do you know that person ? 

Mr, Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. You have never seen him before? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chu3ibris. Let the record indicate that the witness previous 
to Mr, Shomer was Al, Stone, alias Abraham Rubin, 

Mr. Shomer, do you know George Fodor, of Washington, D, C, and 
St. Petersburg, Fla. ? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 


Mr. Chumbris. Were you present last Thursday when Mr. George 
Fodor was here on the witness stand ? 

Mr. SiioMER. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. You were not present? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Mr. Ike Dorman, of Bahimore, Md.? 

Mr. Shomer. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you liave any knowledge of George Fodor and 
Ike Dorman coming from Baltimore to New York City? 

Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Chumbris? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. A. M. Shapiro. Has Mr. A. M. Shapiro come 

(There was no response.) 

Chairman KErAU\'ER. Mr. Shapiro has not turned up. We will 
recommend that he be held in contempt for not obeying the subpena 
of the subcommittee. 

Senator Langer. I so move, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. Without objection, it is so ordered and that 
will be the recommendation of the whole subcommittee. 

I think I have already ordered the subpena and the return to be 
made a Dart of the record as an exhibit. 

(Tlie'subpena and the return were marked "Exhibit No. 26," and 

are as follows:) 

United States of America 

congress of the united states 

To Aaron Moses Shapiro, 

^0 East 23d Street, Neir York City, Greeting: 

Pursuaut to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before 
the Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the 
United States, on May 24, lO.jr), at 10 o'clock a. m., at their committee room 104, 
United States Court "House, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., then and tliere to 
testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by 
said committee, and" bring with you copies of your State and Federal income tax 
returns for the years 1950 to 1954, inchisive : records of your business, including 
bank books, bank statements, check books and check stubs, profit and loss state- 
ments, statements of assets and liabilities, and all documents reflecting your in- 
terest in property, real, personal or mixed. 

Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties 
in such cases made and provided. 

To U. S. Marshal, Southern District of New York, to serve and return. 

Given under my hand, by order of the committee, this 19th day of May, in the 
year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five. 

EsTES Kefauver, 
Chairman. Suheommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency. 

Received this writ at New York, N. Y., on INIay 19, 19").-), and (m May 19, 19-1.^, 
at 40 East 23d Street, New York, N. Y., I served it on the within-named Aaron 
Moses Shapiro by leaving a copy thereof or a subpena ticket with him. 

Thomas J. Lunney, 
Vnited States Marshal, Southern. District of New York. 
By James Gupp, 
Deputy United States Marshal, Southern District of Netv York. 

Chairman Kefauver. I may say as to Mr. Shapiro that there is a 
possibility there has been some mixup in the notice getting to his 
lawyer, but he will either testify or we will have contempt proceed- 
ing brought against him. If there is a mixup, he will be given a chance 
to testify later. 

65263—55 18 


Is there anybody else ? 
Mr. Chumrris. Joseph Piccarelli. 
(There was no response.) 

Chairman Kefauver. Let the subpena be put in the record. We 
will ask that he be held in contempt for failure to appear. 
Senator Langer. I so move, Mr. Chairman. 
Chairman Kefauver. Without objection, it is so ordered. 
(The subpena was marked ''Exhibit No. 27," and is as follows:) 

United States of America 

congress of the united states 

To Joseph Piccarellie, 

119-18 178 Place, St. Albans, N. Y., Greetings : 

Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before 
the Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the 
United States, on May 23, 1955, at 10 o'clock a. m., at their committee room 104, 
United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., then and there to 
testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration 
by said committee. 

Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties 
in such cases made and provided. 

To United States marshal. Eastern District of New York, to serve and return. 

Given under my hand, by order of the committee, this 19th day of May, in 
the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five. 

EsTES Kefauver, 
Chairman, Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency. 

Chairman Kefauver. Senator Lanfjer, do you have any comments 
you wish to make before we bring our hearings to a conclusion? 

Senator Langer. I have nothing to say, Mr. Chairman. 

Chairman Kefauver. I want to state briefly for the record a few 

The subcommittee last year held some hearings into the operation, 
publishing, and distribution of pornographic literature, films — things 
of that sort. 

This year we have received a great many complaints from parents 
and from young people themselves, police officers, of the increased 
amount of pornography that is being distributed around, getting into 
the hands of young people, teen-agers, many of whom are in school. 
These letters indicate the damaging effect and the degrading effect 
that they have. 

We have talked with a number of experts in the field; they have 
confirmed the fact that it is a contributing factor, and a substantial 
one, in the increase of the nimiber of sex crimes and the increase of 
juvenile delinquency. 

So that the staff has made this investigation, and I think they have 
done a very fine job in getting such information as they could. 

We came here to New York not because New York is any worse than 
any other city. As a matter of fact, many public officials here and 
private people have done much to eliminate the extent of pornography 
in New York, for which they deserve commendation. 

Some of these groups, as the evidence shows, do do business here. 
This is a port of entry, and the place for bringing all of our witnesses 
together in one place, and we thouglit this would be the proper place 
for this hearinof. 


The heariiifis sliowed, first, the effect of all this material on the 
youno; people by a i)sycliiatrist, a criminoloojist, and by people who 
are familiar with dea]in<r witii youno- peo]ile. 

The public <i;ener:illy does not understand the extent of this business. 
I think the heariu^js luive shown that it is big business — our investiga- 
tion does: — that the operation in it is extensive. 

We have not in this hearing gone into the fringe cases, to any extent, 
of literature which many people claim is also damaging, because we 
have not wanted to get into any dispute about censorship. 

We have found that Avhile the use of the mails is prohibited, even the 
mail statute is insufficient ; that it is carried in automobiles and other 
methods of conveyance in interstate commerce, and there is a definite 
loophole here that should be plugged. Also the customs laws, as we 
have found, are inadequate, and we hope to strengthen them to prevent 
this stuff from being imported from other countries. 

We will take into consideration other recommendations such as 
those made by Mr. Norman Thomas in his appearance liere — the rec- 
ommendations for the confiscation of the vehicle in which the material 
may be transported and other material in connection with it, such as 
the projectors and the cameras, where films are used. 

Unquestionably, pornography is one of the contributing factors to 
the increase in juvenile delinquency and sex crimes in the United 
States. We have been derelict at all levels of government in our vigor 
in dealing with them. Local communities have done much; they 
could do more. States have started to improve their enforcement and 
their statutes. I think the Federal (xovernment has perliaps been 
more derelict than any other level of government in not bringing our 
laws up to date. 

We mean this subcommittee to try to see to it that the Federal Gov- 
ernment does its part. That is why we have had these hearings, and 
we think they have been very important hearings. 

We hope that law-enforcement agencies and all other levels of 
government will do their part. 

We have information Avhich will be helpful, which has been brought 
out in this hearing, to law-enforcement officers and other sections. 
Our staff' and our subconnnittee are ready to cooperate with them. 

We are glad to see some healthy developments in better enforcement 
at the State level. We hope that they will more adequately do their 

I am impressed, though, in the final analysis, that citizen and parent 
interest, public interest in the problem, is the surest way of eliminating 
this evil. Public interest not only will bring about law enforcement 
and remedial legislation, but it will bring about affirmative action at 
the community level. Tn communities where they have banded to- 
gether, like Jersey City and Boston, many other places, they have been 
able to stop this filth from circulating. 

I feel and I hope that this will be coming about ; that in communi- 
ties throughout the ITnited States — partly, at least as a I'esult of these 
hearings- — we are going to see a lot of activity at the local level. 

I want to again thank the judges, Judge Clarke and Judge Bondy, 
and the wonderful superintendent and staff of the Federal court- 
house, Mr. Carmichael from the district attorney's office, who has been 
sitting in, and many others, for their cooperation and assistance 
to us. 


Our hearings have been a little bit disrupted from time to time, 
and the press has been very patient and has stayed with us. 

We will write letters to the Department of Justice, the Attorney 
General, commending the many marshals who have helped us, who 
have served the subpenas, and who have looked after the courtroom. 

I think I should announce that the subcommittee will have a further 
hearing later on in New York, at which time some of the fine efforts 
being made by the public officials and the people, churches, schools, and 
commissions and groups to combat juvenile delinquency, to give our 
children a better opportunity, to make parents more aware of their 
responsibility will be gone into. 

There will be other problems that will be brouglit out in the hearings 
which we will hold later on in New York. 

Mr. Gaughan, our assistant counsel, has been arranging for these 
hearings, and he will be the acting counsel to j^resent them. 

I don't know the exact time Ave will have our hearings; that will be 
announced later on. 

Other hearings in connection with pornographic material — or other 
evidence in connection with it — will be brought out in hearings in 
other parts of the country, })articularly in our Los Angeles hearings — 
not operations in Los Angeles, because they have been quite diligent 
there, but Los Angeles will be the center of our hearings in the 
West just as New York has been here. 

The district attorney here will be furnished a copy of the record 
for any possible perjury, and we will be calling upon the district 
attorney, we hope, for cooperation in connection with these contempt 

I have already indicated the ones that Senator Langer and I will 
reconnnend to the Senate to be held for contempt. 

With that, this hearing will now be recessed subject to further call 
of the chairman. 

(A^^iereupon, at 5: 20 p. m. the hearing recessed, subject to the fur- 
ther call of the chairman.) 

(Obscene and Pornographic Materials) 


United States Senate, 
Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary 

To Investigai'e Juvenile Delinquency, 

Washington^ D. G. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1 : 30 p. m., in room 
457, Senate Office Building, Senator William Langer presiding. 

Present: Senator Langer (presiding). 

Also present: James H. Bobo, chief counsel; Peter N. Chumbris, 
associate counsel; A'incent Gaughan, special counsel; and Edward Lee 
McLean, editorial director. 

Senator Langer. The meeting will come to order. 

This is a continuation of the Subcommittee on Juvenile Delin- 
quency, dealing with pornographic literature and any other matters 
that may involve juvenile delinquency. 

Will you proceed, Mr. Chumbris ? 

Mr. Chumbris, I have an opening statement. Senator. 

Senator Langer. Kead it. 

Mr. Chumbris. This afternoon the United States Senate Subcom- 
mittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency is holding its fourth 
public hearing on obscene, lewd, and pornographic materials and its 
impact on youth and juvenile delinquency. 

The public hearings in New York City established the following: 
(1) The nationwide traffic in the manufacture, distribution, and sale 
of obscene, lewd, and pornographic material; (2) that obscene and 
pornographic material reaches the youth and children of our Na- 
tion ; (3) that juveniles are induced to pose as models in such insidious 
filth; (4) that juveniles are induced to sell and distribute such filth 
to their friends and classmates; (5) that obscene and pornogi'aphic 
material has a direct impact on juvenile delinquency; (6) that psy- 
chiatric testimony established the types of delinquencies and per- 
verted activities that obscene, lewd, and pornographic material can 
lead juveniles into; (7) that the traffic in pornography is a multi- 
million-dollar business; and (8) that there is a need for corrective 
legislation on the Federal, State, and local level to prohibit the dis- 
tribution of pornographic material by mail, by common carrier, and 
by private conveyance. The first two methods of distribution are now 
violative of Federal law; however, amendments to those laws are 
necessary to close the loopholes. 

The Senate Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee has reported out 
Senate bill 599, which prohibits the transportation in interstate com- 



merce of obscene material. It was favorably passed by the Senate 
and, during the course of these hearings, was favorably reported 
by the House Judiciary Committee and yesterday was passed by 
the House of Representatives. 

Today we shall hear the attorney general of the State of North 
Dakota, Leslie Burgum, who will testify as to the recent legislation in 
the State of Nortli Dakota which is effective in curtailing the manu- 
facture and distribution of pornography. 

Also, Mr. William C. O'Brien and Mr. Harry J. Simon of the 
United States Post Office Department will explain the procedures of 
the Post Office Department in curbing the distribution by mail of 
pornographic material and some of the problems that confront the 
Post Office Department. 

A fourth witness will be Inspector Roy Blick, who testified in the 
New York hearings on the national picture but will present additional 
material that has occurred since the hearings in New York. He will 
also point out how effective law enforcement, through coordination 
of Federal and local officials, can bring results in apprehending pro- 
ducers, distributors, and sellers of pornography. 

Since the hearings in New York, the subcommittee has been ad- 
vised that two distributors of pornography have been apprehended 
through coordination of the subcommittee and the peace officers of the 
respective areas. Further details on these two matters will be brought 
out in future hearings. 

It is gratifying to the subcommittee that the press, the radio, tele- 
vision, public officials, church leaders, civic leaders, and the very par- 
ents themselves all over the country have strongly backed the subcom- 
mittee's efforts on this drive against pornography and have urged the 
subcommittee to greater effort to clean up the traffic that has contamin- 
ated and will contaminate the minds of our youth and lead them into 
possible delinquencies. The subcommittee is dedicated to do every- 
thing in its power to protect the youth of the Nation from this in- 
sidious filth. 

Senator Danger. Call your first witness. 

Mr. Chumbris. The first witness will be Inspector Blick. 

Senator Danger. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are 
about to give in the pending matter shall be the truth, the whole truth,, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Blick. I do. 


Senator Danger. You may proceed. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, would you please state your official title? 

Mr. Blick. Inspector, Metroploitan Police DejDartment. 

Mr. CiiUMBRTS. And what division do you have ? 

Mr. Blick. Sex and perversion. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, you testified in New York City last week ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Blick. I did. Week before last, I believe. 

Mr. Chumbris. And since that time, Mr. Blick, have you had oc- 
casion to make an arrest of a distributor of pornogi'aphy ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 


Mr. Chumbris. And would you please expluin at this time the man- 
ner of the. arrest, and the person involved, and the modus operandi? 

Mr. Blick. Back in Noveml)er of 195-1:, I had received confidential 
information that a man by tlie name of Alfred Peter Selmer, from 
Nanticoke, Pa., was bringing pornographic material, films, into the 
District of Columbia, or carrying them through the District of Co- 

On 2 or 3 occasions I had information that he was coming to the 
District of Columbia, but we did not locate the gentleman. Yesterday 
I received the same information, that he was entering the District of 
Columbia, and I sent a lookout over the radio for a green Packard 
bearing Pennsylvania tags, driven by Alfred Peter Selmer, white, 
5 feet 91/2 inches, 172 pounds, blond hair, husky build. 

Mr. Chumbris. For the record, would you spell his last name? 

Mr. Blick. S-e-1-m-e-r. In about 45 minutes scout 83, driven by 
Officer Campbell — and I forget the other officer's name — notified me 
by phone that they had apprehended the automobile, and it was in 
No. 8 precinct. 

I went out there, and on the back seat of the automobile was 14 
reels of film, 8 reels of positive, 6 reels of negative, about 10,000 feet 
of film altogether. Now, the positive films are to make duplications 
of films. 

And he was on his way to some place — would not divulge where he 
was going — to have 80,000 feet of film made from the positive film. 

He was photographed, fingerprinted, and taken over. Due to the 
way the law is written today, we had no proof that he had them in 
his possession to show or to exhibit. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, may I ask you a question at this point : 
Wliere was Selmer from? 

Mr. Blick. Nanticoke, Pa. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you wish to proceed? 

Mr. Blick. He was brought back to my office, and I made him put 
up a $300 bond. This morning he didn't show up in court. A 
cash bond. 

Mr. Chumbris. Was it a forfeiture ? 

Mr. Blick. It was forfeited by the presiding judge that was on 
the bench. 

Mr. Chumbris. And can you state what the official charge against 
him was? 

Mr. Blick. I charged him with possession of pornographic films. 

Mr. Chumbris. So there won't be any mistake of what pornographic 
films mean, would you please define what you consider pornographic 
films to be? 

Mr. Blick. Male and female sexual relations, abnormal or cohab- 
iting, in the nude. 

Mr. Chumbris. And have you examined this particular film that 
was picked up ? 

Mr. Blick. One reel in his presence, to make definitely sure that 
it was obscene and indecent. 

Mr. Chumbris. And did that film have any specific description 
or name? 

Mr. Blick. It was called The Kinsey Report. 

Mr. Chumbris. How long have you been with the vice squad? 

Mr. Blick. Twenty-four years. 


Mr. Chumbris. And you have had ^reat experience in indecent and 
obscene fihns and pornographic material ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you would be in a position to testify as to 
whether this particular film you saw was pornographic or not? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. In your opinion, was this film that you received 
definitely pornographic film? 

Mr. Blick. It was filth. 

Mr. Chumbris. Could you tell from the film whether it was of recent 
origin or an old film? 

Mr. Blick. It would have to be of recent origin, for one reason: 
The kinsey report has only been out recently; and all of the films 
were new films, because I had to rewind them on reels. 

Mr. Chumbris. And this one particular film, what would the footage 
be on that film? 

Mr. Blick. 400. 

Mr. Chumbris. 400 feet. I understand that your entire seizure was 
how many feet? 

Mr. Blick. Close to 10,000. 

Mr. Chumbris. 10,000 feet. You mentioned the 80,000 feet of film 

Could you exi^lain that further? 

Mr. Blick. He was going to take the positive film to have duplica- 
tions of what he had. The positive film makes negative film. 

Mr. Chumbris. All right, sir. 

For the record, will you please explain the procedure usually fol- 
lowed bv these persons in first making a negative, then a positive, and 
then another negative; will you please explain that procedure? 

Mr. Blick. There is only one positive that is made, unless someone 
is stealing the film themselves. Then from the positives you make 
all the negatives you wish. 

Mr. Chumbris' And that goes on so that the production is almost 
unlimited? . . 

Mr. Blick. You can make a billion feet of film all from one positive 
if you wish to do so. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, this person Selmer ; has he ever been prosecuted 
and convicted of any type of pornographic activity previous to this 
offense ? 

Mr. Blick. Not to my knowledge. He stated that he was doing 
this for a friend of his up in Wilkes-Barre, Pa. 

Mr. Chumbris. And would you please give the name and the address 
of that person ? 

Mr. Blick. Chester Wesensky. 

Mr. Chumbris. And the address. 

Mr. Blick. He runs the Big Chief Store in Wilkes-Barre, Pa. 

He further stated— upon his person he had $1,485 on him, and he 
stated that was the money to have the films made from the positive 

Mr. Chumbris. Did he have a little black book, or name and address 
book on him? 

Mr. Blick. He had two. 

Mr. Chumbris. And were you able to obtain some of the names and 
addresses from those two books ? 


Mr. Blick. I olaiiced through the book, but I have been so busy I 
haven't had a chance to analyze tlie book like I would like to. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, from your glancing through the book and 
from the known distributors and producers of pornography through- 
out the United States that you know of your own knowledge and 
that came out in our hearings in New York, did you recognize any 
of the names and addresses of those persons in those two books? 

Mr. Blick. Not connected with the factions up there; no, sir. This 
seems to be another outfit. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, may I ask you this, that when you make a 
more detailed studv of tliose two books, would you please submit to 
the subcommittee the names and addresses from those two books? 

Mr. Buck. I will be glad to. 

Mr. Chumbris. Did he say where he was going from Washington ^ 

Mr. Blick. He did not. 

Mr. Chumbris. Did he say where he had been, other than from his 
home town ? 

Mr. Blick. He had left that morning on his way to wherever he was 


Mr. Chumbris. And he wouldn't tell you where he was going i 

Mr. Blick. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, as far as this man's particular case is con- 
cerned, he forfeited the bond; is that correct? 

Mr. Blick, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chu:mbris. And do you consider any further action against 
this particular person at this time ? 

Mr. Blick. Only a misdemeanor; that is all we can hope for. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, this Chester Wesensky, of the Big Chief Store, 
in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., have you had any previous knowledge as to his 
operations ? 

Mr. Blick. I had not. He has a brother, under another name of 
Stanley Wayne. Stanley Wayne is supposed to be the brother of 
Chester, and he also goes'under the name of Stanley Wesensky. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you know of his operations? 

Mr. Blick. Yes ; I understand he is a big operator. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, do you have any approximation of the value 
of the merchandise that was taken from Selmer yesterday? 

Mr. Blick. It is according to who wants it. To me it would be worth 
5 cents. To the ones that want it, to get the positive film, they would 
jmy a large price for it. But the negative films sells for $25 on up, 
for 100 feet. 

Mr. Chumbris. $25 for 100 feet? 

Mr. Blick. On up. 

Mr. Chumbris. On up. Inspector, I would like to ask you a few 
other questions, supplementing the testimony that you gave in New 
York that there were 34 cases in the past 2" years involving porno- 
graphic activities that came to the attention of your office; is that 

Mr. Blick. That is correct. 

Mr. Chi^mbris. Now, I would like tc> ask you specifically of one 
case where a person was aj^prehended between Sixth and Seventh 
Streets, on Pennsylvania Avenue SE., in a second-story apartment. 

Do you recall that case ? 

Mr. Blick. I do. I was on the raid. 


Mr. Chumbris. And would you please explain to us— first, isn't it 
a fact in that particular case and the one across the way in Alexandria, 
Va., involving the same person, that a juvenile was involved? 

Mr. Blick. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. And would you explain the nature of that man's 
activity and what he was caught doing? 

Mr. Blick. Him and his partner — and his partner was an innocent 
victim, he had no knowledge of what was going on, on the second 

Mr. Chumbris. First, would you give his name, for the record? 

Senator Langer. Wait a minute. If that partner is innocent, we 
don't want to use him. 

Mr. Chumbris. Not the partner. The pei-son we are talking about. 
Is it Borgard ? 

Mr, Blick. That is right. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please explain, then, what this person 
was involved in doing, and the action you took ? 

Mr. Blick. I think the best thing to do is to tell you how I came 
in touch with him. 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. 

Mr. Blick. I had a young hidy come to my office and she stated 
that she had been a fool, she had a couple of drinks too many, and 
she liad had picture taken in the nude, over this radio shop. She 
asked for the pictures, and they stated that the pictures didn't 
turn out. 

I talked to her for a long time, and she stated that is all it was. 

ITpon her statement, we got a searcli warrant for the premises and 
went up there and searclied the place. We found the young lady's 
picture more tlian in the nude. I also found out that this man had 
a trailer over in Alexandria, and I got in touch with the Alexandria 
police immediately and tokl them the trailer number, and they went 
over, and I believe they got a suitcase full of pornogi-aphy or porno- 
raphic material. 

Mr. Chumbris. Inspector, may I inject at this time that the per- 
son's name — I mentioned the name of Borgard, Marion Virgil Bor- 
gard. I show you his picture. Is that the person that you are dis- 
cussing at this particular time? 

Mr. Blick. I think it is; yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you read into the record the identifying fea- 
tures that are imprinted in the mug that you have there of him? 

Mr. Blick. P. D. No. 143191, taken August 10, 1954. Charged with 
possession, with intent to exhibit obscene pictures, Fochet, M. D., 35 
years old, 5 feet 10, 162 pounds, medium build, blue eyes, medium 
complexion, brown hair, good teeth, small flesh-colored mole left tem- 
ple. Born in Chuluota, Fla. Address 22719 Temple, Trailer Village. 

Mr. Chumbris. Before I injected the name, were you through giv- 
ing your participation in the raid ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And there was also a raid in Alexandria; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And the Alexandria Police Department not only 
obtained suitcases full of obscene material, but they impounded his 
trailer, as well as some of his equipment ; is that correct ? 


Mr. Blick. That I don't know. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know of your own knowledge whether after 
the matter was disposed of in court, they returned his equipment and 
the trailer ? 

Mr. Blick. The equipment that we had was returned to him. 

Mr. Chumbris. Why was the equipment that you had returned to 

Mr. Blick. By order of the court. There is no law to hold the 
equipment or to confiscate the equipment. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, Inspector Blick, I understand that you have 
been vitally interested in having such a law introduced in the Congress 
and passed by the Congress of the United States ; is that correct 'i 
. Mr. Blick. I have. 

Mr. Chumbris. And if such a law were passed, would that be an 
effective means in curtailing the production and manufacturing of this 
obscene material ? 

Mr. Blick. Very much so. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please explain, in a few words, how it 
would curtail it ? 

Mr. Blick. Well, when you seize a sound-projection machine — it 
sells for anywhere from $450 to $1,100. And the other equipment that 
goes with it for the projection, you might have $1,400 invested in the 
projection equipment alone. The film, you have 1,600 feet of film that 
would be shown ; it would cost you, if you know how to get it, about 
$100 or $125. For a stag affair, you could get anywhere from $2.50 to 
$8 admission charge. $3.50, and 150 people tliere — 100 people, I should 
say, to make it easy for me — that would be $350 that would be taken 
in, and the cost of the film would be $125. That would be $225 profit. 

Now, if the police walked in, he could be fined anywhere from $50 to 
$500 on a misdemeanor charge. And what other material that we 
would seize, the projection machine, chairs, and whatnot, the owners 
could come and claim them, and we would have to return same to 
them. We would retain the film only. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, when you were referring to a stag party — 
your testimony in New York referred to a particular stag party where 
there were boys from 11 to 17, 197 of them, to be exact; is that correct? 

Mr. Blick. I believe that was the figure ; yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. And these stag parties are affecting juveniles as well 
as adults ; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, getting back to these girls who pose for people, 
like Borgard that you mentioned, would you explain within your own 
knowledge the method of operations of persons like Borgard who take 
these juvenile pictures, these indecent and lewd pictures, and nude 
pictures ? 

Mr. Blick. Now, Mr. Chumbris, I will not explain Borgard, or take 
any particular one, because 

Mr. Chumbris. Take any one. Their usual method of operation. 

Mr. Blick. But there are quite a few people that will go ahead and 
pose in the nude, or cohabit with the opposite sex, or put on an act 
of perversion, and when they get home they will think about it, and 
then they will go back and say to the photographer, "I made a fool of 
myself; I want my negative and the pictures." 

And the photographer says, "Look, it didn't come out." 


And, of course, that satisfies the mind of the individual. 

And those pictures, the negatives, there can be thousands and thou- 
sands of pictures taken from the negatives and sold in other parts of 
the country unbeknown to that individual who had her picture or his 
picture taken. 

Mr. Chumbris. So there won't be any mistake in the record, when 
you say "it didn't come out," it means that the negative didn't take 
satisfactorily enough so that any pictures could be reproduced from 

Mr. Blick. That was his reason, but the negative was perfect. 

Mr. Chumbris. Always the negative was perfect, and the girl went 
away thinking that the picture was destroyed, but instead it was dis- 
tributed throughout the country; is that correct? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. I have around five or six hundred of those in 
my possession in the suitcase. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, is that a common practice with these types of 
pictures ? 

Mr. Blick. I would say "Yes." 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, directing your attention to nude pictures 
taken by photographers of young girls, wasn't there a recent case in 
the District of Cohimbia, last year, around July 9, 1954? 

Mr. Blick. Are you speaking about the Chucosky case? 

Mr. Chumbris. I am referring now particularly to the Murry Levy 
case at 2 Thomas Circle. 

Mr. Blick. Yes, that is the 17-year-old girl. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please explain that for the record, what- 
ever facts you have at your command ? 

Mr. Blick. The only facts that I have is that the picture was 
taken. By whom, I don't know. 

Mr. Chumbris. You don't know who took the picture? 

Mr. Blick. No, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Who was apprehended for that? 

Mr. Blick. I believe his name was Murry Levy. 

Mr. Chumbris. And was his address 2 Thomas Circle NW? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And about this other case you were just mentioning 
before I brought up the name of Murry Levy, the Chucosky case, 
would you please explain to us that case ? 

Mr. Blick. That was where a man was taking pictures of his wife 
in the nude, and the children watching it, actual perversion that Mrs. 
Chucosky was performing on herself. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you get the correct spelling of that name, 
if you have it with you ? 

Mr. Blick. You have it on there. 

Mr. Chumbris. On this particular exhibit? 

Mr. Blick. I think so. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please look at it and see if you can pick 
it out of that group ? 

Is that also the same case where there was a card index of 600 
negatives ? 

Mr. Blick. Those were the negatives I was speaking to you about. 
It is C-h-u-c-o-s-k-y. 

Mr. Chumbris. The full name and the address. 


Mr. Blick. Vincent W. is the man's name. The address was 607 
Fourtli Street NW, apartment 1. He was charged with sale and pos- 
session of indecent and obscene pictures. 

xVlong with him was a George Fodor, who was a wholesaler in the 

Mr. Chumbris. I think George Fodor was a witness in the hearings 
in New York City ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Blick. I saw him up there. I did not hear him testify. 

Mr. Chumbris. He was a wholesaler of pornography; is that cor- 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. And I believe Fodor testified that he is now living 
in Florida. 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, the person that you just mentioned, do you 
know whether they still live at the same address that you just gave? 

Mr. Blick. They do not. 

Mr. Chumbris. They have moved ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Chumbris. Do you know the present address ? 

Mr. Blick. I have heard — I don't know whether this is authentic 
or not. 

Senator Langer. We do not want the address used. The people 
have left there and it might be embarrassing to the present occupants 
of that locality, 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have anything further on this particular 
case. Inspector, that you would like to state to the subcommittee at 
this time? 

Mr. Blick. No. 

Mr. (^HUMBRis. Do you have a card index with you ? 

Mr. Blick. I do. 

Mr. Chumbris. And would you please present them to the chair- 
man with the various categories that are listed? 

Mr. Blick. The first one are girls performing fellatio — but that 
is not the way it is written here. 

The second one, men performing cunnilinguism — of course, that 
is not the way it is written here, either. 

The fourth section, sexual relations. 

Mr. Chumbris. These are negatives in these various categories; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, you can make a hundred thousand prints off of 
one of them. 

Mr. Chumbris. In other words, a person could take that negative 
and make a hundred thousand prints ; is that right ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir; and still make more. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you have 600 in there. 

Mr. Blick. Approximately. I have never sat down to count them. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you have anything on bestiality ? 

Mr. Blick. Sadistic bestiality, yes, I have any type of perversion 
that you wish. 

Mr. Chu:\ibris. Now, Inspector, getting back to this confiscation of 
equipment, isn't it true that sometimes the police department loses 
money on the fact that the time and the preparation of confiscating 


this equipment, when you make raids such as this, is large in compari- 
son to the penalty that is imposed on the offender ? 

Mr. Blick. Many times, for this reason : Some of this equipment is 
not so easy to handle, and man can hurt himself taking this out and 
putting it in the wagon and then taking it out and marking it and 
taking care of it as he should to protect the property as long as it is 
in the custody of the police department, and then to have it turned 
back, and we keej) nothing but the film that has to be destroyed 
by a bonfire. 

Mr. CriuiiBRis. Then you, in your opinion, would definitely recom- 
mend that the law in the District of Columbia be amended so that 
the property can be impounded, confiscated, and not returned to the 
offender ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Blick. Absolutely. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, Avhat is your ojnnion as to the severity of the 
penalties for these various offenses in the District of Columbia as a 
deterrent to future criminal activity by these people? Do you think 
the penalties are severe enough ? 

Air. Blick. I do not. 

Mr. Chumbris. And would you comment on that, please? 

Mr. Blick. Well, when you can make sucli an amount of money as 
the average run of these people make on this material that they sell^ 
and they work their own hours, and ride around in beautiful cars, and 
the penalty is anywhere from $100 to $500 fine, or a year in jail, they 
are willing to take chances on it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, I have noticed this exhibit that you have 
presented to us. You may refer to it, if you so please. You have one 
in front of you. 

Just give us an idea of the nature of the disposition of some of those 
cases, the amount of the fine, or the jail sentence that is given. 

]Mr. Blick. $250 or 90 days; $100 or 60 days; nol-prossed; nol- 
prossed; nol-prossed; $100 or 60 davs,- $100 or 60 days; not guilty; 
nol-prossed ; $100 or 90 days ; $100 or 90 days. 

Mr. Chumbris. Then, in both of those instances, the fines, in your es- 
timation, are light in comparison to the nature of the offense; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Blick. To my belief it is. Very much so. 

Mr. Ciri'MBRis. I believe you testified in New York that you think 
a person who sells and distributes pornographic material to a juvenile 
is doing a more harmful act than if he were selling or distributing 

Would you like to comment on that? 

Mr. Blick. I stated in New York, if my memory serves me right, 
that pornograpliy was worse than narcotics. 

Mr. Chumbris. And the reason ? 

Mr. Blick. The reason why would be this : That if an individual 
had one ca])sule of narcotics, he would use it and no one could take 
it after him. With these pamphlets, these pictures, and whatnot, 
they can be passed around from one person to another and 500 or a 
tliousand can see the same booklet over a period of time. 

Mr. Chumbris. Therefore, since pornography affects so many, that 
makes it much more effective ? 


Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. They are getting so bold that, as long as we 
are talking about it, I would like to show 2 or 3 of the latest ones that 

are out. . .i 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. Would you please exhibit them to the 


Senator Langer. These are the very latest ones, are they, Inspector i 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. These are the latest pictures that are being 
sold to the public todav. You can see they have gone from black and 
white into color. You can see the idea. This young lady here— 
J don't believe she is over 18 or 19, is she? 

Mr. Chumbris. Inspector, I believe some of the witnesses m New 
York testified that the sentences and fines imposed are so light that 
they don't even amount to a license fee ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. In the raid that the 196 boys were involved m, how 
many men did you use on that raid ? 

Mr. Blick. I could be mistaken, but I think it was close to around 
30. I could be mistaken, because I used everybody that I could get 
my hands on. 

Mr. Chumbris. For that particular raid alone, what cost would 
you say it was to the city of Washington, D. C, to apprehend that one 
person, for those involved for the stag party ? 

Mr. Blick. Of all the work and everything, including the time of 
building the job up, I would say close to $1,200 easily. 

Mr. Chumbris. And what was the fine the person who plead guilty 
received ? 

Mr. Blick. I would have to refer to the records, because I think 
it was- 

Mr. Chumbris. Would $200 sound like the correct fine? 

Mr. Blick. No, sir. It was around $100 or 60 days. 

Mr. Chumbris. $100 or 60 days. And it cost you over $1,200. 

Mr. Blick. If you want to consider our time that was consumed. 

Mr. Chumbris.' And that doesn't involve the judicial processes in- 
volved, also, the cost for judicial processes ? 

Mr. Blick. I am just speaking about the police department. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, in the taking of these nude pictures of some 
of these young girls, was a promise made to them that they would be 
used for calendai-s and post cards, and things like that, legitimate 
ones ? 

Mr. Blick. That I cannot answer, Mr. Chumbris, because I don't 

Mr. Chumbris. Inspector, could you state how many of these 2-by-4: 
booklets get into the high schools and junior high schools here in 
Washington ? Have you made any specific survey on that ? 

Mr. Blick. The only way that we can go on that would be just the 
complaints. Now, we had a complaint this week that a 17-year-old 
boy had gotten hold of some of this obscene and indecent material, and 
we talked to the boy last night. The only way that we can get hold 
of that is what comes to us through the parents, or the wonderful 
cooperation that we are receiving from the schools here in Wash- 

Mr. Chujnibris. Now, Inspector, were you in New York when we 
read the comments from the various chiefs of police throughout the 
Nation as to the amount of pornography that is being sold and the 


amount that is o-etting to the children { Were you there at that time h 

Mr. Blick. I don't believe I was in the room at that time. 

Mr. Chumbris. While we read into the record numerous replies 
from chiefs of police to indicate that pornooraphy is getting to the 
children — as a matter of fact, in one instance, they were found on chil- 
dren in the elementary schools as well as junior high schools. And we 
received a letter this morning from the chief of police in one of our 
States in the country which pointed out that in about six schools they 
had a great amount"^of traffic in pornography, and they sent a picture 
to illustrate the type of material that is coming in, and that was some 
of the material that you are showing, and some of these 2-by-4's. 

Would you please look at that picture and see if that is the type of 
pornographic material that gets around to the children in the schools? 

Mr. Blick. This, and worse. 

Mr. Chumbris. This, and worse ? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. . . 

Mr. Chumbris. I would like to have that marked as an exhibit. 

Senator Langer. It will be so marked. 

Mr. Chumbris. We will mark this exhibit 28. 

Senator Langer. It will be made a part of the record. 

(The photograph was marked '^Exhibit Xo. 28," and is on file with 
the subcommittee.) 

Mr. Chumbris. Is there anything further that you would like to 
comment on, Inspector Blick:' 

Plow about some of these titles? Do you have any titles of the 
films themselves? 

Mr. Blick. Do you want me to read them otl? 

Mr. Chumbris. "I would leave that with the chairman. 

Senator Danger. You don't have to read them. Just file them. 

Mr. Chumbris. Just file the list of titles. 

Mr. Blick. I can't, because that is my receipt that I sent to the 

Mr. Chumbris. I show you a mimeographed list that was picked off 
of the Simon Simring case in Orangeburg, S. C.. that was mentioned 
in the New York City hearings, and so if some of these titles are similar 
to those that you have in your possession, we will file that for the 

jMr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. They are similar? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

(^hairman KEFAU^'ER. That will be filed as an exhibit. 

(The list of film titles in the possession of Simon Simring were 
marked "Exhibit No. 29," and are on file with the subcommittee.) 

Mr. Chumbris. I would like to ask you one other question : What 
was the value of the material that you impounded from George Fodor's 
place when vou arrested him, in the last year or so? 

Mr. Blick. I think the record will show— I forget what I said. 

Mr. Chumbris. I think you did mention it in the New York hearing. 

Mr. Blick. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. And, as a matter of fact, I think you mentioned the 
fact that he had a cellar full of that material at his home; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Blick. That is correct. 

Mr. Chumbris. He operated out of his home; is that correct? 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 


Mr. Chumbris. Now, as I understand your testimony — and I would 
like for you to repeat it — tlie law in the District of Columbia now as 
to the manufacture and distribution and sale of pornography is not 
as elective as it sliould be; is that correct? 

Mr, Blick. Tliat is the way I feel about it; yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. No further questions, Mr. Chairman ? 

Senator Langer. I want to thank you again very much for your 
kindness in helping us out, Inspector, your Idndness in New York, 
and taking time this afternoon. 

Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. 

Senator Langer. Mark this "Exhibit 30." It shows children 4, 6, 
and 10 years old. 

Mr. Chumbris. This will be exhibit No. 30. 

(The photos of indecent acts by children were marked "Exhibit No. 
30." and are on file with the subcommittee.) 

Mr. Chumbris. And this is definitely an obscene and lewd and por- 
nographic picture ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Blick. I would say it is about the worst that a person could 

Mr. Chumbris. Thank you very much, again, Mr. Blick. 

Senator Langer. Inspector Blick, I appreciate very much your com- 
ing down. 

Mr. Chumbris. Solicitor O'Brien and Inspector Simon. 

Senator Langer. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are 
about to give in the pending matter shall be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. O'Brien. I do. 

Mr. Simon. I do. 


Senator Langer. You may proceed. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, will you give us your full name and 
jonr address, and your official title, for the record ? 

Mr. O'Brien. My name is William C. O'Brien. I am Assistant 
Solicitor of the Post Office Department, in charge of Fraud and 
Mailability Division. Of course, my official address is Post Office 
Department, Washington, D. C. My home address is Chevy Chase, 

Mr. Chumbris. And Mr. Simon, will you give your full name, ad- 
dress, and official title? 

Senator Langer. Just a moment. 

You have had 43 years' experience in this, haven't you? 

Mr. O'Brien. Just 41, sir. 

Senator Langer. That is your background, 41 years ? 

Mr. O'Brien. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon. 

Mr. Simon. Harry J. Simon, post office inspector. I am domiciled 
in Washington, D. C, in the Post Office Department Building, and 
reside in Washington, D. C. 

65263—55 19 


Mr. Chumbris. How long have you been in your present position? 

Mr. Simon, I have been with the Post Office Inspection Service since 
1925, approximately 15 years as a post office inspector. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you are one of their experts, I understand, on 
testifying before congressional hearings ; is that right ? 

Mr. Simon. Not an expert, but a post office inspector who has been 
investigating cases of dealers in obscene and indecent matter in con- 
nection with the mails for 7 or 8 years. 

Mr. Chumbris. And you have testified previously before congres- 
sional committees ? 

Mr. Simon. I have. 

Mr. Chumbris. I understand, Mr. O'Brien, that you have a state- 
ment that you would like to proceed with. 

Mr. O'Brien. I have a general statement which I prepared, not 
knowing that you were going to examine witnesses by questions. But 
whichever way you wish to proceed, it will be all right with me. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, we are particularly interested in the 
legal procedure under whicli the Post Office Department operates in 
detecting and curbing pornographic, obscene, and lewd material from 
going through the mails, and whatever else is under your jurisdiction. 

Mr. O'Brien. I may say at the outset that the Post Office Depart- 
ment is receiving a great many complaints from parents whose chil- 
dren have been the recipients of obscene advertising of various kinds. 
On the cardboards which have been brought in to the committee room 
and which are now being opened up by one of your assistants, we have 
attached samples of advertising matter which has been sent through 
the mails and complained about, and some copies of the letters from 
])arents complaining about the advertisements exemplified on those 
boards, wliich were received by those children, some sent to very young 
children, and some sent to teen-agers. 

The mailing volume of these advertisements is steadily growing. 
The volume of complaints we are receiving is steadily growing, and 
in my long experience, it has never heretofore been equaled in volume 
or as to the character of advertising. 

The advertising is becoming more daring. It is already a menace 
in itself to public morals, and especially to the morals of children. 

I thinlv, in my judgment, the increase of this traffic is due to several 
principal factors. 

One, I believe, is the ready availability of pornography in whole- 
sale lots, made by such persons, I think, as Inspector Blick has talked 
about previously this afternoon, and the fact that an obscene dealer 
can go into business on a comparatively small capital — he needs only 
to begin to circularize advertisements, sometimes they are periodical 
advertisements of small size, and sometimes they are circular adver- 
tisements more ambitiously prepared, as you see on the board over 
tliere. And that one in the left-hand corner at the top is an example 
of one used by the Male Merchandise ]\Iart in Hollywood. The adver- 
tisements which the man is just now putting up are advertisements of 
Samuel Roth. I think he appeared before you in New York briefly. 
And of other purveyors 

Senator Langer. Both of them claimed the fifth amendment, didn't 
they, or did Eoth testify ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes ; he did. 

Senator Langer. And Klaw did ? 


Mr. O'Brien. Yes. . 

We have examples of Klaw's advertisements and various others: 
the Stajr Shop, the Tourlanes Publishing Co. , -i^ 

Mr Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, so that the record may be st^aiglit, 
the person you are referring: to that sends out the material that is 
now on the board there is Samuel Roth, of New York; is that right? 
110 Lafayette, New York ; is that right, eighth floor ? 

Mr O'Brien. That is correct, sir. We have issued numerous orders 
against various enterprises, but he is a very active man, and invents a 
new name for his business every time we issue an order against the 

one he is using. , -o ^-u o 

Mr. Chumbris. You are referring to Sam Koth < 

Mr. O'Brien. Sam Roth. . 

Mr. Chumbris. I would like to get that straight, lou say he in- 
vents a new name every time you put a stop order against the old 
name ? 

Mr. O'Brien. That is right. , , ^ -, 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, I believe he testified in New York that he had 
as many as 15 or 20 trade names registered with the county clerk m 
New York at one time. 

Mr. O'Brien. I think that would be true. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you know the size of Mr. Roth's mailing books 
and pamphlets, and also these circulars that go throughout the coun- 
try to youngsters ? 

Mr. O'Brien. He came into my office first after he appeared before 
your committee in New York and told me he had a mailing list of 
400,000 names. 

Mr. Chumbris. Did he tell you where he gets his mailing list 
from ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Well, he accumulates the mailing list by, I think, 
the random circularization of names he finds in various books, tele- 
phone directories, or what not. 

Mr. Chumbris. I think he did mention in his testimony that he 
bought over 100,000 name lists from one Mr. Vallon, in Brooklyn, 
N. Y. 

Mr. O'Brien. They all buy these names. 

Senator Danger. 180,000? 

Mr. Chumbris. 180,000, to be exact. 

Mr. O'Brien. As in the case of Samuel Roth, so in the case of other 
persons that we have had to deal with in the mail order business, the 
facility with which they can change names and also locations is quite 
a problem for our Department in dealing with these enterprises. 

Mr. Chumbris. Tliat is one of your biggest headaches; isn't it, 
Mr. O'Brien? 

Mr. O'Brien. One of our biggest headaches. 

Mr. Chumbris. What is the recommendation of the Department to 
correct that difficulty that you have? 

Mr. O'Brien. The recommendation of the Department is incor- 
porated, I think, in a bill which was introduced by Congressman Rees, 
of Kansas, H. R. 174. That bill would authorize the Post Office De- 
partment, the Postmaster General, to temporarily impound mail of 
companies whose sale of indecent literature through the mails is 
the subject of a proceeding. 


Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, I think I would like to point out 
at this time that the Senate Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee has 
voted to supi^ort a similar measure in the Senate of the United States, 
which will be introduced on Monday by the chairman. Senator 

Mr. O'Brien. I am very happy to hear that, sir, and I know the 
Postmaster General will be gratified. 

Senator Langer. Now, in that measure, you remember in the New 
York hearings, we had a gentleman up there who had been convicted 
6 or 7 times, and it seems that each time he got convicted, the fine he 
received was less. At that time we instructed the chief counsel to draw 
up a bill providing for a more severe penalty for the second offense 
and for the third offense. 

Do you recall that ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. 

Senator Danger. Has that bill been prepared for introduction? 

Mr. Chuinibris. That bill has been prepared for introduction, and 
it will be ready within a few days. 

Senator Danger. We may adjourn by the 15th of July, you know. 

Mr. Chumbris. We will have it in next week. 

Senator Danger. Would you be in favor of that? 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes, although the prosecution end of it is more Mr. 
Simon's field. Certainly anything that would tend to lessen this 
greatly growing and steadily worsening traffic in obscenity would be 
a great help to the Post Office Department. 

Senator Danger. Well, in New York, for example, the fourth felony 
means life. 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes. 

Senator Danger. In other words, the penalty is progressively higher 
and more severe for each offense. 

Mr. O'Brien. I think, of course, that is a very strong deterrent if 
you can put it into effect. 

Mr. Chumbris. Isn't it true that the State of Minnesota has a 
statute along that particular line? 

Mr. O'Brien. I am sorry, counsel, I don't know that. 

Now, you asked me a few minutes ago if I would discuss the legal 
situation, the laws which we have to use and which we try to enforce 
in the Post Office Department to prevent the dissemination of obscene 

Of course, the principal and oldest law is the one now incorporated 
in title 18 of the United States Code, known as section 1461. It is a 
law which was passed in 1872, I believe, and amended several times 
since, and it has a twofold character. It provides that no obscene, 
lewd, indecent, or filthy matter shall be carried in the mails. It says 
that if they are carried in the mails, they shall not be delivered by any 
post office or letter carrier. And it also provides a penalty for whoever 
knowingly deposits such matter in the mails, or knowingly causes it 
to be taken from the mails. The penalty is $5,000 fine or 5 years' 
imprisonment, or both. 

That, of course, is very strong law, both in tlie scope of the matter 
it embraces and also in the penalty it carries. The difficulties of 
enforcement, of course, are very numerous. 

Now, as far as the criminal provisions are concerned, Mr. Simon can 
tell you more about it. We have had the experience of not being able 


to prosecute offenders where it would do the most good — in other 
words, where the obscene matter lias been directed for delivery. That 
is because a fellow may live in a liberal or ultraliberal typical jurisdic- 
tion, either on the west coast or the east coast. "We do not regard the 
mailing of some of the stuff we consider obscene as very serious, and as 
Inspector Blick has shown you, the fines or penalties imposed are not 
commensurate with the injury that such matter does to the public, and 
especially to the juveniles. 

Therefore, the Post Office Department is advocating and presently 
trying to obtain approval for additional legislation which will author- 
ize prosecution of offenders in the communities where the matter is 
delivered and where it actually inflicts injury upon the recipient. I 
think such legislation would be of great help in deterring some of this 

Mr. Chumbris. Is there such a bill pending before Congress? 

Mr. O'Brien. The bill has not been introduced. It is presently 
being drawn and submitted to the Budget Bureau, and it hasn't come 
in yet, but I believe it will be offered. 

Mr. Chumbris. I say, No bill has been introduced in Congress at this 

Mr. O'Brien. No. 

Mr. Chumbris. Could we get a copy of that proposed bill, Mr. 

Mr. O'Brien. I think you will have to wait until the administration 
cleare it through the Budget. 

Senator Langer. You see, Mr. O'Brien, we are doing this year what 
we have done during all the years that I have been in the Senate. We 
will go along, in January we will meet, nothing is done, February 
nothing is done, March nothing is done, April nothing is done. May 
nothing is done — you and I have had that matter up before, as you 
know, and I think you and I are in full agreement. 

Now, we will introduce this bill, and we will get it in in the middle of 
June, and finally when the House will pass on it, it will never be con- 
sidered by the other House, and therefore it will die, and next year we 
will come back with all this testimony over again. 

You and I have had that up in connection with other postal matters, 
in connection with the small loans, insurance frauds, and so on. 

Mr. O'Brien. That is true. 

Senator Langer. Is there any way we can get this bill in next week 
that you know? 

Mr. O'Brien. I believe I would have to find out what progress has 
been made on it before I could answer that. Senator. My last informa- 
tion is that it is imminent, but not actually in the hopper yet. 

Next week we are going to have an exodus of some kind. 

Mr. Chumbris. You may continue. 

Senator Langer. Before you continue, I am very much interested in 
this, because our New York testimony shows that some of these fellows 
make a million or a million and a half or $2 million a year. 

Mr. O'Brien. That was Mr. Klaw. 

Senator Langer. It is to their interest to do all they can to keep 
these bills from being passed. Certainly this subcommittee ought 
to find some way to get these bills in so that they can be passed without 
being killed year after year. 


Mr. O'Brien. I think you will find very strong support of that. 

Mr. Simon can speak for it. 

Senator Langer. We fool around and we don't get it in here until 
the 24th or 25th of June. It is in the Subcommittee of the Judiciary, 
and 2 weeks the full committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee, 
and it will lay around a week before anything is done, and all the 
time July 15 is approaching, and by the time we adjourn nothing 
is done, and the bill is dead. 

Mr. Chumbris. I might point out one gratifying thing. This 
bill that was reported out of our subcommittee, the one which pro- 
hibits interstate transportation by private car of pornographic mate- 
rial, it has also passed the House, so now that one bill that has been 
pending for 3 or 4 years has now finally passed. 

Senator LxVnger. That has been pending for 7 or 8 years, and I am 
glad to hear that. 

How is the runaway-fathers bill ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Tliat bill is reported out of the Senate. 

Senator Langer. That will have to go to the full committee in the 

Mr. Chumbris. That is another bill that has been defeated each 
year since 1948 and 1949. 

Senator Langer. It was put in by Congressman Pope or Congress- 
man Jacobs 15 years ago, and it still isn't passed. There certainly 
ought to be some provision made so that we can get action on these 

Mr. O'Brien. As to this man who is making the million or million 
and a half dollars from the sale of this pornography, at least one 
of these is Irving Klaw, who refused to testify. I have a copy of 
the charges w^e have pending against him, and if we supported the 
charges — I am the complainant — if we support these charjres, an order 
can be issued that will stop all mail addressed to Irving Klaw. That 
means, of course, his mail-order business in this type of pornography, 
what I call pornography, in which he has been indulging, these pic- 
tures, photographs, slides, and so forth, will be in the past. 

Senator Langer. You have just told us that 1 fellow has got 20 
different corporations. They will slip it over and put it in the name 
of somebody else. 

Mr. O'Brien. We are not too slow about following it. It is some- 
thing that we can handle effectively by impounding this mail. 

Senator Langer. If you impound the mail they will use an auto- 
mobile or airplane. 

Mr. O'Brien. We only have the mail to deal with. 

Senator Langer. I understand that. 

Mr. Chumbris. At this time you don't have the impounding statute 
to operate under. That is one of the bills you are trying to get 
through ? 

Mr. O'Brien. I have an opening and impounding authority as 
to a fictitious name, with which I have had some success and some 

Mr. Chumbris. Is that what you term the unlawful order or the 
stop order? 

Mr. O'Brien. The unlawful order is pursuant to 290 United States 
Code 55, by which the Postmaster General can stop the mail of per- 
sons obtaining obscenity through the mail. 


Mr. Chumbris. That hasn't proved 100 percent effective? 

Mr. O'Brien. It is 100 percent effective where the courts would 
leave the order in effect. 

Mr. Chumbris. What is the difficulty there? 

Mr. O'Brien. I say, 100 percent effective as to each order. Now, 
in the case of the woman up in Connecticut and around there, Mrs. 
Tagger was her name. She ran a business which could operate in 1 
place under 1 name for a few weeks or months, and then skip to another. 
She was constantly moving along. We finally did put an end to 
her use of the mail for obscenity ; 100 percent effective, I think, is too 

Mr. Chumbris. Let's strike the words "100 percent effective," and 
use the word "effective." 

Mr. O'Brien. I can say that in most of these cases where we have 
complaints on a 259 (a) and obtain an order, I think in a very high 
percent of the cases there has ben no revival of that business. How- 
ever, there is this : we have to deal with the intricacies of procedure 
as prescribed by the Administrative Procedure Act. A man can post- 
pone and fool around with our procedures for many months. 

Mr. Roth here, in one case, has managed to do that for 12 months. 

Mr. Chumbris. In the meantime, he has already profited on that 
first advertisement he has sent out; is that correct? 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. And by the time this procedure was put into opera- 

Mr. O'Brien. We did use the fictitious name procedure against 
some of Mr. Roth's enterprises, and the court refused to give any 
relief, and that was the place where impounding action was very use- 
ful, but nevertheless the delays which are incident to complying with 
all the prescriptions of the act can be very bad when you come to en- 
forcing the law against fly-by-night operations, which, when they close 
up after they have taken all the money they can, are indifferent to 
the order. 

Senator Langer. Did you get that batch of literature I got from 
North Dakota last week? 

Mr. O'Brien. Have I received it yet? 

Senator Langer. Yes. 

Mr. O'Brien. I probably have. If I did, I replied to you, and 
sent it back, probably. 

Senator Langer. I sent it to Mr. Summerfield. 

Mr. O'Brien. It comes over to me. 

Senator Langer. It came from Dickey County, N. Dak. 

Mr. O'Brien. I bet it was Good Times advertisements, if I were 
betting on which case it was, because Good Times and similar publica- 
tions are demanding circularization at the present time. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you want to get back to your statement, Mr. 

We have injected some questions into this that you probably covered 
later on. 

While we are still on the question of recommendations, a question 
was raised in New York concerning the envelope not containing a 
sufficient identification of the person who puts this material into the 


Do you have any suggestions of a law tliat should be enacted to 
take care of that ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Requiring a person who mails indecent matter to 
disclose his identity on the envelope ? 

Mr. Chumbris. That is right. 

Mr. O'Brien. It never occurred to me that we could do that. 

Mr. Chumbris. Is it possible that it can be done ? You notice we 
get a lot of these envelopes, and it just mentions some fictitious com- 
pany, without any individual name attached to it, with some address; 
that is the only identifying feature on it. 

Mr. O'Brien. I might say that it will probably be a statute which 
will be difficult to enforce as a mailability statute. It might be one, 
if constitutional, which would be enforc'eable as a criminal statute. 
The reason is, of course, that if a man mails first-class matter in a 
plain envelope and we have no way of going into that mail, it would 
go through without challenge. Aiiother thing, if it were possible to 
issue an order by the Postmaster General in such a case, we have the 
problem of willfully mailing obscene matter without putting his ad- 
dress on the outside, I don't know whether it would mean anything 
beneficial. I haven't thought anything about it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please give that thought, and give what- 
ever recommendations that you may have to the subcommittee at a 
later time, because this matter was raised during the course of the 
New York hearings, and if there are suggestions that you can make 
on that particular point, I am sure the subcommittee would greatly 
appreciate it. 

Senator Langer. Can we set a day when we are going to get that? 
Can you get it in a week. 

Mr. O'Brien. Next week is a bad week. 

Senator Langer. You have got a bunch of assistants. You have 
got millions and millions of dollars in the Post Office Department. 
I realize that you can't do all of that, but you must have some assist- 
ants that can prepare that and get it in here in the week or so ; is that 

Mr. O'Brien. I will try to comply with your request. Senator. 

Getting back to this discussion of law, the nonmailability statute 
is one which is most often employed by the Post Office Department, 
because, of course, it is readily applicable to all matter which is not 
under seal. That would enclose all circular matter which is third class 
and all publications which are not mailed under seal. Therefore, 
most of our post cards, most of our work, comes under that statute. 
And we do exclude from the mails under that statute great quan- 
tities of nonmailable obscene matter, mainly in the form of periodicals, 
sometimes two or three hundred copies of a magazine may be declared 
unmailable, because it is obscene. The publishers are pretty well ac- 
quainted with that fact, and consequently we find not many of them 
willing to take a risk when they have a l:)ad issue, they probably send 
it by some other means of conveyance. Sometimes you will find pub- 
lications scattered around the country which have indicia on them 
indicating entry as second-class matter, but that doesn't mean that it 
was disseminated by the mail, it could have been delivered by private 
carrier, common carrier, or some other form of transportation. 

And then, of course, we have a number of lawsuits arising from our 
efforts to exclude obscene matter from the mails. We have some very 


close questions on what obscenity constitutes. The battle is an unceas- 
ing one between those who want to make a living out of this porno- 
graphic matter, and law enforcement oiHcers and the public, which 
objects to having the mail used for the distribution of such material. 

Mr. CHxrMBKis, ]Mr. O'Brien, do you know, of your own knowledge, 
the method of operation of these people obtaining mailing lists and 
liow they could screen these mailing lists for whether the person is an 
adult or a minor? 

Mr, O'Brien. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. Samuel Roth admitted in his testimony 
iri New York City that his office procedure could be improved to a 
great extent in determining whether the name lists that he buys 
or rents contain names and addressse of minors. 

Mr. Chairman, in conjunction with the name lists, I have a let- 
ter here from Congressman Blatnik, of Minnesota, which was sent to 
lis this morning, witli some material, and some of this 

Mr. O'Brien. I might say we proceeded against Tourlanes. 

Mr. Chumbris. Tourlanes Publishing Co., 229 West 28th Street, 
New York City, N. Y. 

Mr. O'Brien. I entered charges against them several months ago. 
The case has been tried and heard. The hearing examiner has rec- 
ommended an order stopping their mail. And of course they have 
the right to appeal, under the Administrative Procedures Act, which 
they will no doubt pursue. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Chairman, may I read into the record the 
Congressman's letter, because it is an interesting sidelight. 

Senator Langer. Yes. 

Mr. Chumbris. It says: 

Dear Mr. Chumbris : My assistant told me of his conversation with you yes- 
terday and your desire to see the material which was sent to Mr. Peter McHardy 
of Hibbinff, Minn. Peter is a young man now serving with the Armed Forces 
in Germany, and his father wonders whether or not his mailing address was 
obtained through his Army enlistment. 

Any information you can give me on this matter will be greatly appreciated. 

Tlie reason why I say this is unusual is because this is the first time 
we have had any inkling that a mailing list can be made up of young 
men who enlist in the armed services. 

Do you have any comment to make on that? Is there any such 
possibility, that you can think of? 

Mr. O'Brien. We haven't heard of that before. As a matter of 
fact, I don't get information concerning mailing lists. 

Mr. Chumbris. I would like to have that introduced into the record 
and marked "Exhibit No, 31." 

Senator Langer. That may be done, 

(The letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 31," and is as 
follows :) 

Congress of the United States, 

House of Representatives, 
Washington, D. C, June 8, 1955. 
Mr. Peter Chumbris, 

Room 900, HOLC Buiklhw, 

Washington 25, D. C. 
Dear Mr. Chumbris : IMy assistant told me of his conversation with you yester- 
day and your desire to see the material which was sent to Mr. Peter McHardy of 
Hibbing, Minn. Peter is a young man now serving with the Armed Forces in 
Germany, and his father wonders whether or not his mailing address was obtained 
through his Army enlistment. 


Any information you can give me on this matter will be greatly appreciated. 
Sincerely yours, 

John A. Blatnik, Meniber of Congress. 

Mr. O'Brien. Here is our complaint against the Tourlanes Co., 
which was filed on February 15, this year. 

Senator Langer. How many complaints have you filed, Mr. O'Brien, 
on subject matter of this kind, this year? 

Mr. O'Brien. This is the sixth month. I would say perhaps 200. 
I can't tell you offhand. I am just estimating, as well as I can. 

Senator Langer. What is the disposition of them ? 

Mr. O'Brien. I would say most of them quit when they are con- 
fronted with charges. 

In other words, they say, "We quit, we won't do it any more, we 
agree to go out of business." More than half of them. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you say that your complaints filed have 
stepped up within the last year ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. To what extent ? What is your average number of 
complaints per year that you filed, would you say ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Now, the average number of complaints over a period 
of years- — remember, in the first place, the statute was passed in 1950, 
this 259 (a), and we started off pretty slowly on it, because we didn't 
get too many cases, of course. And there weren't so many concerns at 

Mr. Chumbris. In other words, there were many more concerns that 
have opened up business since 1950 ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. How many more concerns, would you say, have 
opened up since 1950 ? 

Mr. O'Brien. You mean in excess over the average number in 
existence ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. 

Mr. O'Brien. I don't know. 

Mr. Chumbris. Percentagewise. 

Mr. O'Brien. I don't really know that, sir. You see, you have 
the fellow coming and going and opening here and there, and one does, 
and another crops up. 

Mr. Chumbris. Can you explain the reason why so many are crop- 
ping up since 1950 ? 

Mr. O'Brien. I tried to explain that before, that availability of this 
type of picture — you can buy it, go into these studios where they have 
a bin of it, just like a bin of junk, and you can go in and take a handful 
of these and buy them, and then you are in business. 

Mr. Chumbris. And, in your opinion, since 1950 this business of 
obscene lit-erature and bondage pictures and fetish pictures and nude 
pictures, all those that have been determined as obscene, has jumped 
up tremendously in its manufacture, distribution, and sale through- 
out the United States ; is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Brien. In my opinion ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Yes. 

Mr. O'Brien. I can't answer that question. 

All I can say is that I see more of them. Perhaps we have been 
more effective in rooting it out. 


Mr. Chumbris. You see more of it, and there are more concerns 
that are cropping up every day to get into this particular type of 

Mr. O'Brien. More concerns are cropping up every few days. 

Mr. Chumbris. And therefore that must be an indication that that 
business is increasing; is that correct? 

Mr. O'Brien. I tliink it is generally increasing, yes. 

Senator Langer. The reason for that is that nobody is ever put 
in jail. When they get a prosecution, all they do is tell them to stop 
it, and the fellow says, "Yes, I will do it no more."' 

Mr. O'Brien. Senator, I can't put them in jail. I wish I could. 
All I can do is stop their mail. When I say stop it, that may mean 
the mails go back marked "Out of Business." And that is a measure 
1 am willing to adopt, because it saves the Government trial time and 

In other words, if a man agrees to go out of business now rather than 
prolong the hearings 6 months, the Government and the public gain by 
having the business stop quickly, and also less expensiv^ely. 

Senator Langer. Can't these people be prosecuted ? 

Mr. O'Brien. They can be prosecuted if the United States attorneys 
feel they have cases of sufficient strength, but very often we can stop 
them, Senator, in cases where the United States attorney would prob- 
ably not undertake the prosecution. 

Mr. Chumbris. You have heard of the Solliday case in Baltimore, 
where the United States attorney obtained a conviction for the distri- 
bution of this type of pictures we are talking about — the fetish, the 
bondage, the strip-tease. 

Mr. O'Brien. One of my men testified in that case. 

Mr. Chumbris. In that case, the common carrier was used, and still 
a conviction was obtained, under the common-carrier provision, which 
is 1462 of title 18. 

Mr. O'Brien. Right. 

Senator Langer. How many fellows have gone to jail since 1950 ? 

Mr. O'Brien. I don't know. Mr. Simon is the man who handles 
the prosecutions. 

Senator Langer. Can you tell us? 

Mr. Simon. I have some statistics on the number of arrests in com- 
parison to the number of cases we have issued for investigation. 
That is based on the mailing of all types of nonmailable matter, 
including threatening letters and postal cards. During the fiscal year 
ending 1954, we had issued for investigation 5,233 cases, which is quite 
an increase, and the statistics in our possession at the present time 
indicate that tliere will be a tremendous increase during the current 
fiscal year. 

Now, arrests for mailing obscene matter during the fiscal year end- 
ing June 30, 1954, there were 136 arrests and 112 convictions. 

During the current fiscal year ending April 1955, there were 166 
arrests and 137 convictions. 

Senator IjAnger. What is the average amount these gentlemen get ? 

Mr. Simon. My experience has been that the penalty is very small 
in most obscenity cases; they get $50 or $100 fine. Most of them are 
probation and frequently there is not even a fine. The most excessive 
fine — I just experienced three cases that were tried in California, in 
San Francisco, the northern district of California, involving mail- 


fraud photographs. They were jury trials in each case. After pre- 
vious prosecution the promoters had continued to operate. But a 
year ago I took the matter up with the present United States attorney. 

We obtained indictments in each case and convictions in each in- 
stance. These defendants were given suspended jail sentences from 
6 to 9 years and fines were $1,500—1 got a $3,000 fine, 1 a $4,000 fine, 
and 1 a $5,000 fine, which is quite excessive — and those are the only 
adequate sentences we have experienced in this particular type of case. 

Senator Langer. Don't you think the law should be changed to 
make it compulsory that the judge had to give them at least 90 days 
or a year in jail? 

Mr. Simon. The penalty is adequate if the judges would only 

Senator Langer. The Congress has the power to say to the judge, 
"You have got to give him at least a year." 

Mr. Simon. I think there should be more adequate sentences to deter 
these people. 

Senator Langer. Would you draw up a law in this omnibus statute 
you are drawing up to say that the judge has no discretion ; when he 
convicts, he has to give him at least a year? When you stop this stuff, 
you have got to have some kind of adequate penalty to stop it. When 
a man is making a million dollars a year and gets $100 or $50 fine, 
it makes the whole law ridiculous. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, are you familiar with the case in wliich 
a Federal judge in Newark, N. J., last summer issued a year-and-a-day 
penalty to this person for his first offense in sending an obscene picture 
through the mails ? 

Mr. Simon. I don't recall that particular case ; no, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Some of our material from the hearings in New 
York have not come to Washington and have been forwarded to an- 
other part of the country for the hearings. I don't have the exact 
name of the person involved, but the judge issued this statement, that 
from here on in any case that comes before his court of obscene litera- 
ture, obscene pictures, lewd pictures, was going to get the full penalty 
of the law. 

Mr. Simon. That was in a Federal case. 

Mr. Chumbris. Li a Federal court. 

Are you in accord with that type of meting out punishment? 

Mr. Simon. No, sir ; I hadn't heard about it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Are you in accord with it? 

Mr. Simon. I am ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. Could you believe that that would definitely act as 
a deterrent to future traffic in pornographic literature through the 
mails ? 

Mr. Simon. I certainly do. 

Mr. Chumbris. As a matter of fact, it would be the same for any 
other })rovisions, such as 1462, through common carrier, and the other 
])rovisions of the law? 

Mr. Simon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Chumbris. If the punishment were greater ? 

Mr. Simon. I agree. 

Mr. O'Brien. Of course, you could amend 1461 and say : 

* * * shall be fined not less than $1,000 or less than one year in jail. 

Senator Langer. And providing further that the judge cannot 
suspend the sentence, and get away from all the suspending business. 


We ran across that, as you will remember, during the war, where 
they had defective wnring in the airplanes, and a lot of our soldiers 
were killed. And we had a judge in Indiana that suspended the sen- 
tence, even though there had been several mechanics and soldiers 
killed. You remember that. The judge finally resigned when they 
started making an investigation. 

Mr. Simon. I might say that since I have been engaged in this type 
of work I only know of one instance where a man has received a 
maximum penalty of 5 years in prison for mailing obscene matter. 

Mr. O'Brien. Of course, where we stop these people, or they quit, 
they did suffer financially; they probably have a lot of money in- 
vested in their advertisements. 

Senator Langer. If your theory is right, then if a man enforces a 
prohibition law, a fellow can sell liquor all year long, or 2 years or 
3 years or 4 years, and when you finally convict him, if he says he 
won't sell any more liquor 

Mr. O'Brien. No ; that is not my theory. 

Senator Langer. That is the way the things works. 

Mr. O'Brien. No, sir. 

Our function in the Post Office Department is not punitive. Our 
function is to stop the use of the mails for the distribution of obscen- 
ity When it comes to the prosecution and penalty, that is up to the 
De])artment of Justice. But we try to stop the channel of the mails 
from being used in order to let this matter flow into the houses of 
the public and contaminate the minds of these children that you are 
here trying to protect. 

If you can effect that, then after we have done that, the avenues are 
still open for prosecution of the offender. 

Senator Langer. As Mr. Simon says, they issued 5,280 arrests. 

Mr. Simon. Those are cases issued for investigation. And that is 
all types of nonmailable matter. We don't have any breakdown as 
to the dealers in obscene matter. It is all types of nonmailable matter. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien or Mr. Simon, while we are on the 
question of the nature of the offense and the penalty involved, what 
is your opinion on a statute which provides that the equipment that 
the pomographer has would be confiscated and not returnable to the 
offender ? Are you in favor of such legislation ? That would defin- 
itely cut off the production end of the business, as well as some of the 
distributing end. 

Would you be in favor of such legislation? In other words, if the 
photographic equipment were confiscated and if the projector, the 
movie projector and the processing of film, that equipment that he 
uses for that work confiscated, like it is under the narcotics law and 
under the old prohibition law, would you be in favor of such a pro- 
vision in the law, whether it be Federal or State? 

Mr. Simon. I would, in connection with criminal cases, because I 
have experienced such situations where these offenders have been 
taken into custody, in using a search warrant and material is con- 
fiscated, and thereafter the court ordered the material returned, and 
they are back in business again. 

Mr. Chumbris. Then, if the equipment were taken away from 
them, they couldn't produce these pictures fast enough, and therefore 
they couldn't distribute them through the mails; is that right? 


Mr. Simon. It would at least put them to cousiderable expense in 
duplicating them. 

Senator Langer. I want to call your attention to the fact that 
a man brings in wool from Canada and doesn't pay this duty, or 
brings in some of the Selkirk wheat; if he does that, they don't arrest 
him and punish him, but they take his trucks, customs takes the trucks, 
the automobiles, everything involved in bringing that Selkirk wheat 
in, and they sell them. And there is nothing you can do to stop it. 
And so some of these men lose trucks costing six or seven thousand 

We have 70,000 cases up in North Dakota, some are pending right 
now in the district court of North Dakota. That is the way to stop 
violations of the customs law. Why wouldn't it work here ? 

Mr. Simon. I agree with you. 

Senator Langer. If an automobile carried some of this obscene lit- 
erature, if that automobile could be confiscated, or an airplane carried 
it and an airplane could be confiscated, why w^ouldn't that be a good 
law to have ? 

Mr. Chumbris. A similar law to that has been introduced. Senator. 

Senator Langer. But there hasn't been any action on it. You did 
a good job of introducing stuff, but nothing has been passed. 

Mr, Chumbris, Mr. Simon, on the same issue, we have with us the 
Honorable Leslie Burgum, the attorney general of the State of North 
Dakota, whose State legislature in 1955, this recent legislature, enacted 
such a provision in its law, which he will testify to in a short while. 

Senator Langer. Let's have him testify now. 

Would you come up, Mr. Burgum. It is not necessary to swear you 
in this matter. 

(The prepared statement, in full, submitted by Mr. O'Brien is as 
follows :) 

Statement by William C. O'Brien, Assistant Solicitor, Fraud and Mail- 
ABiLiTT Division, Office of the Solicitor, Post Office Department, Wash- 
ington, D. C. 

The Post OflSce Department receives numerous complaints made by parents 
whose children have received advertisements of pornographic books, pictures, 
movies, slides, photographs, and other items including trashy sex and crime 
stories, filthy novelties and other miscellaneous dirt. 

The mailing volume of such advertisements is large and is steadily growing. 
The daring and indecency of the advertisements themselves, apart from the in- 
decent nature of the items sold, is a menace to public morals both adult and 

The increase in this traflSc is due to several principal factors. The ready 
availability of the pornography in wholesale lots, the ease and simplicity of 
setting up business with comparatively small capital investment and the re- 
luctance of the courts to sustain administrative orders denying use of the mails 
to such enterprises. 

Purveyors of pornography with little to lose by changing name and location 
can easily and secvnely accumulate quick profits while the law takes its 
leisurely course. 

At this point, the committee may wish some discussion of the laws available 
to the Post Office Department in dealing with the traffic in obscene matter through 
the mails. The laws usually invoked are section 1461 of title 18 United States 
Code and section 259a of title 39 United States Code. 

Section 1461 declares nonmailable every obscene, lewd, lascivious or filthy 
book, pamphlet, letter, writing, print, or other publication of an indecent char- 
acter. The statute provides that such matter "shall not be conveyed in the 
mails or delivered from any post office or by any letter carrier." This law also 
provides penalties of $5,000 fine or 5 years imprisonment or both, for knowingly 
depositing obscene matter for mailing or delivery, or for knowingly taking same 
from the mails for the purpose of circulating or disposing thereof. 


There have been several convictions under the criminal provisions (as Post 
Office Inspector Simon will tell you) but compared with the vast volume of the 
traffiic in obscenity, such convictions have not proven to be significantly deterrent 
to the growing volume and worsening character of that traffic, nor have such 
convictions prevented purveyors of pornography from circularizing and selling 
to children. 

Criminal law enforcement, however, is a limited deterrent where action can 
be taken but some of the worst offenders are domiciled in jurisdictions where 
indictments and convictions are difficult to obtain. Thus, secure in the well 
founded belief they are immune from criminal prosecution, or that jail sentences 
are less likely than fines in their home jurisdictions, dealers in pornography use 
the mails to advertise and sell their filthy merchandise to people in more con- 
servative distant States. 

The present law, title 18, United States Codte, section 1461, allows prosecution 
of obscenity mailers only at the point of mailing but not at the points where 
delivery is made and where the real harm to the community is done. 

The Post Office Department is studying legislation to correct this defect in 
the law. Such legislation, if passed will amend title 18, United States Code, 
section 1461, so as to permit prosecution of dealers in obscenity in the jurisdic- 
tions where obscene advertisements and other indecent matter are delivered, or at 
the place of mailing. 

The passage of this legislation should greatly help to end the comparative 
security from prosecution which now encourages and to a degree protects the 
owners of many enterprises peddling obscenity to children as well as adults 
throughout the country. 

The provisions of title 18, United States Code, section 1461, relating to the non- 
mailability of obscene matter are administered by the Solicitor's office, in cooper- 
ation with the postmasters throughout the country. It is the postmaster's duty to 
inspect matter offered for mailing and if he is in doubt as to whether it should be 
accepted for mailing, he is required to submit the question to the Solicitor for 
the Post Office Department for advice and ruling. Of course, postmasters can- 
not open or inspect sealed first-class matter. Consequently, a great deal of 
obscenity both in advertising and in the form of nude or otherwise indecent 
pictures can escape detection at the point of mailing if sent as first-class 
matter. Criminal prosecution is one remedy for such misuse of the mails. The 
post office inspectors investigate such mailers and are usually able to secure 
evidence for prosecution purposes. Mr. Simon, who handles most of this work 
is here and can explain his problems, including his experiences where juveniles 
are concerned. 

Another remedy for the traffic in obscenity through the mails is provided by 
39 United States Code 259a, which authorizes the Postmaster General to issue 
orders against parties who are obtaining or attempting to obtain money or 
property through the mails for obscene, lewd, lascivous, indecent, filthy, or vile 
matter or give information as to how, where or from whom such matter may 
be obtained. This law was passed by Congress in 1950. Its enforcement is 
subject to the provisions and requirements of the Administrative Procedures Act 
(5 U. S. C 1001 et seq.). Therefore, formal charges must be served upon the 
person or concern accused of violating the law, who is entitled to a formal 
hearing before a hearing examiner. Respondents may avail themselves of 
procedural measures which roughly parallel those of a civil court proceeding, 
including the right to appeal from the hearing examiner's initial decision and 
from the Department's final order. 

Skillful maneuvering by a respondent in these cases can cause long delays of 
weeks or months before an order finally becomes effective. These protracted 
delays sometimes augmented and increased by court orders enable those en- 
gaged in selling pornography by mail to accumulate profits without hindrance 
and to such an extent that when the Department's order stops the use of the 
mails and cuts off their revenue, the exploiters are little concerned and can 
start another enterprise, providing a repetition of the same long drawn out 

Procedural red tape is a great obstacle to the enforcement of a law which 
could swiftly end much of the mail order traffic in obscenity. 

All of these enterprises affect juveniles, some by direct appeals to their growing 
sexual curiosity and by sensationalism stimulating of abnormal and character- 
destroying sensuality. The advertising samples which have been brought here 
for the inspection of the committee typify the approach of some of these dealers 
about whose use of the mails to circularize children, we receive complaints. 


Only a few of such complaints from parents liave been presented. They repre- 
sent, in my experience an insignificant fraction of those who have just cause 
for complaint. In my opinion, based upon several years association with this 
work, not more than one person in several thousand who could complain, will 
actually do so. Consequently, the frequency with which we are now receiving 
such complaints from parents indicates to me a tremendously wide distribution 
of obscene circulars and letters advertising dirty books, pictures, movies, slides, 
novelties, et cetera, to children as well as to adults. 

Returning to the enforcement of 39 United States Code 259a. and the problem 
of procedural delay, I believe the Post Office Department has some hope of 
solving this problem if Congress enacts into law H. R. 174 introduced by Con- 
gressman Rees of Kansas. This bill would authorize the Postmaster General 
to impound the mail of dealers in obscenity pending decision of their cases 
before the I'ost Office Department, in circumstances where the protection of the 
public warrants such action. Last year we had cases against such a dealer, 
whom we called the alphabetical lady. She began her operations with a fictitious 
name, such as Afton Publishers. When this was challenged she moved and 
sent out circulars under a B name such as Buffton and down the alphabet she 
went from place to place, securing mail delivery service for a few weeks until 
that phase of her scheme was worked out. Of course, we followed right along 
but she was usually a jump ahead. Mail addressed to each new name was im- 
pounded temporarily on the ground that it was fictitious, as it was, and we 
finally ended that scheme. Had she used corpoi-ate or true personal names, we 
would have been practically impotent without express impounding authority 
such as provided by H. R. 174. 

The committee may be interested to learn that we have issued a complaint 
charging Irving Klaw, New York, with violating the provisions of 39 U. S. Code 
259a, copy of the complaint is here available to the committee, with some of 
his circulars. I am convinced that the charges are sound and sustainable and 
that the evidence will warrant and support the issuance of an order against 
Klaw's scheme. An increasing number of complaints against Klaw are being 
received by the Department. 

I also have here complaints issued and pending against Male Merchandise 
Mart. Hollywood, Calif.; The Stag Shop, Los Angeles, Calif.; and Tourlanes 
Publishing Co., Great Neck, N. Y. 

I also have here, as a sample of completed proceeding the case against Gar- 
gantuan Books, and Rise & Shine Books, New York, one of the many such 
entei'prises conducted by Samuel Roth, whose circular advertisements have 
aroused parents to protest against his use of the mails. 

Besides the direct order sales of indecent movies, photographs and slides, 
there is the big problem of the sex books which purport to be designed and 
intended for proper sex instruction but are I'eally advertised and sold by means 
of advertising which is plainly designed to arouse the curiosity of the prurient. 
Court decisions have, I think, sufficiently excluded from application of the 
postal obscenity statutes, the legitimate texts for adults, which discuss sex 
and advise mature persons concerning their problems in married life. But the 
young and immature are frequently assailed by publicity sensationally dwelling 
on the purely carnal and lascivious aspects of sex and by means of advertise- 
ments in girly type magazines solicit the small sums for which such book — 
and pamphlets may be obtained through the mails. Of course, direct mail ad- 
vertising is also used to sell not only tracts a"bout normal sexual life but 
also concerning abnormalities and deviations therefrom which, I am informed by 
court officers, psychologists and others are extremely detrimental to the morals 
of juveniles as well as adults. This evil we deal with as well as we can with 
the authority now conferred on the Department by existing laws. 

And last but not least we have the constant and rapidly growing problem 
of paper back novelties and cheap, trashy, sexy, periodical literature. I may 
say that the Post Office Department is gravely concerned about the use of the 
mails to distribute such indecent literature. We resist to the utmost the efforts 
of those who daily seek to send such matter by mail and great quantities are 
excluded by Solicitor's rulings that it may not be carried in the mails vmder 
the provisions of 18 U. S. Code 1461. Moreover, the Department has refused to 
grant second-class rates to such publications. 

Numerous publications containing sexy illustrations and text dwelling las- 
civiously on sex episodes and sex crimes reach the public through newsstand 
sale. But most of them were distributed by some means of transportation out- 
side of the mails, including of course, many entered as second-class matter. 


In conclusion, I may say, that the Post Office Department, despite the 
handicaps, which I have mentioned, is fully employing its authority under the 
law to protect the public from obscenity of all kinds. And may I again com- 
mend to the favorable consideration of the committee such legislation as I 
have mentioned which will greatly assist the Postmaster General, the Solicitor 
and the Chief Post Office Inspector in dealing with this problem. 

Would you state your full name and your address and your official 
title, for the record '! 


Mr. BuRGUM. Leslie R. Burgum, attorney general, Bismarck, 
N. Dak. 

Mr. Chumbris. And how long have you been the attorney general 
for the State of North Dakota? 

Mr. Burgum. Since January 3, 1955. 

Mr. Chumbris. And, Mr. Attorney General, you were the Attorney 
General at the time that House bill No. 825 was introduced and passed 
by the Legislature of the State of North Dakota and written into 

Mr. Burgum. Yes ; I was, at the time of the passage of House bill 
No. 825. 

Mr. Chumbris. And the provisions of said law, does it deal with 
confiscation of the equipment of a person dealing in pornography ? 

Mr. Burgum. Yes ; it does ; section 4 : 

Seizure and confiscation of equipment used in production or manufacture 
of indecent literature or articles and of vehicles used in distribution of indecent 

Senator Langer. Mr. Attorney General, would you mind reading 
that whole section. 

Mr. Burgum (reading) : 

Any peace officer of this State may seize any equipment used in the printing, 
production, or manufactvire of indecent and obscene literature, matter, or articles, 
of whatever nature, and may seize any vehicle or other means of transportation 
used in the distribution of such indecent and obscene literature, matter, or arti- 
cles, and may arrest any person in charge thereof. The procedure prescribed in 
chapter 29-31 of the North Dakota Revised Code of 1943 relating to confiscation 
of equipment used in the commission of crimes shall apply and shall be followed 
in carrying out the provisions of this section. 

Senator Langer. That would mean, would it not, that if a truck or 
an automobile was used in hauling this literature, and he was arrested, 
convicted, you could confiscate tlie truck ? 

Mr. Burgum. That would be my interpretation, Senator. 

Senator Langer. An airplane or anything else that is used ? 

Mr. Burgum. That is correct. 

Section 1 refers to films. And I assume — and the title here refers 
to pictures. This confiscation section doesn't mention films or pic- 
tures, but I assume that "articles of whatever nature" would mean 
that you could seize films and projectors, or anything else you could 
get ahold of. I certainly would try it. 

Mr. Chumbris. Do you believe that such a law would act as a deter- 
rent to the manufacture, production, and distribution of obscene 

Mr. Burgum. Yes ; I believe it would. 

65263—55 20 


Mr. Chumbris. It would certainly put a lot of people out of busi- 
ness, wouldn't it ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Yes ; that confiscation section is rather deadly, because 
some of that stuff, the projectors, for instance, automobile, or what- 
ever they were using, is expensive. 

Mr. Chumbris. And, Mr. Attorney General, I believe that your 
State is the first State in the United States that has placed the confis- 
cation of pornographers' equipment into law. 

Mr. BuRGUM. That may be. I couldn't say as to that. I notice that 
this bill was introduced by seven members of the house of representa- 
tives, and one of them is Mr. Brooks, State's attorney of Cass County. 
That is the county in which the city of Fargo is situated. He was 
State's attorney there for a number of years, with Senator Knowles. 
Whether or not he had experience with this thing, I am not prepared 
to say. But as State's attorney of Stutsman Comity — we use the term 
"attorney'' there, in a good many States they use the designation 
"county attorney" or "prosecuting attorney" — but I had a little run-in 
with it. It comes back to my mind after listening to this testimony 

Two women were returning from church. They were both mothers, 
and they found on the street a card addressed to any young girl who 
might be interested in posing in the nude for a calendar, and that 
this party could be reached in a certain way. And they turned it 
over to the police. They ran it down, and I think the party left town 
before they got anything done about it. 

But it comes back to me after listening to this testimony here. That, 
evidently, was an operation along this line. 

Mr. Chumbris. I might point out at this time, Mr. Burgum, that 
from the hearings that we held in New York, we found very little, if 
none at all, of actual distribution from the State of North Dakota 
to other parts of the country, and the stiffness of that particular 
law might be the deterrent that brought that result about. 

Senator Langer. All we did find was that some was being shipped 
into North Dakota. We found a man that had an office in Fargo 
and another office in Minot and another in Grand Forks. 

But if any evidence is presented to you, I am sure that you will make 
short shrift of the fellow that is doing it, knowing your reputation 
for law enforcement out there. 
Mr. Burgum. That is right. 

These representatives definitely felt there was some danger, some 
possibility of this thing developing, because several of them intro- 
duced this bill. And it was not introduced at my suggestion. But 
it is on the statute books there now. 

And the penalty, by the way, is $1,000 fine or a year imprisonment. 
And there is a saving clause, too, in the bill : 

Any person who violates any of the provisions of this act shall be punishable 
by a fine not to exceed $1,000 — 

that is the maximum — 

or by imprisonment not to exceed 1 year, or both such fine and imprisonment. 
Mr. Chumbris. And a survey of the State statutes would show that 
the penalty provisions under the new law of North Dakota are much 
more stringent than in most of the States ? 


Mr. BuRGUM. I would suspect that that is the case. I would not 
l)e prepared to say, though. 

Mr. Chumbris. We have introduced this into our New York hear- 
ings, Mr. Attorney General, the brief of the laws dealing with pornog- 
raphy of the 48 States. And our survey indicates that North Dakota 
does have one of the most stringent laws, especially in view of the 
confiscation provision in its statute. 

Mr. BuRGUM. Well, that is the measure that is on the books now. 

Senator Langer. Any objection to making that law a part of the 
record, Mr. Burgum? 

Mr. Burgum. No. 

Senator Langer. Then it is ordered to be made a part of the record. 

Mr. Chumbris. That will be marked "Exhibit No. 32." 

(The bill of the North Dakota legislature was marked "Exliibit 
No. 32," and reads as follows:) 

Thirty-fourth Legislative Assembly of North Dakota 

house bill no. 8 25 

< Introduced by Representatives Vinje, Roen, Gefreh, Schuler, Langseth, Brooks, 

and Hauglaud) 

A BILL For an act relating to the prohibition of the buying, selling, distribution, designing, 
or disseminating in any way, of obscene ■writings and pictures and providing for the 
enforcement and administration of this act and penalties for its violation ; and to repeal 
sections 12-2107, 12-2109, and 12-2111 of the North Dakota Revised Code of 1943 

Be it enacted hy the Legislative Assembly of the State of North Dakota: 
Section 1. Sale, Exhibition and Distribution of Lewd and Obscene Matter 
TO PBStsoNs Under Twenty-one Prohibited. — No obscene, lewd, salacious or 
lascivious book, pamplilet, picture, paper, letter, magazine, newspaper, writing, 
print, printing, film, negative, transcription, wire or tape recording, or other mat- 
ter of indecent character, shall be sold, loaned, given away, shown, exhibited, dis- 
tributed, advei'tised or offered for sale, loan, gift or distribution, or be held in 
possession with intent to sell, loan, give away, show, exhibit, or distribute, to 
any one under the age of twenty-one. Any person, firm, copartnership, or cor- 
poration who hires, uses, or employs any one under the age of twenty-one to 
sell, give away, or in any manner distribute such matter, and any person who, 
having the care, custody, or conti'ol of a person under the age of twenty-one 
years, permits such person to sell, give away, or in any manner distribute such 
matter, shall also be guilty of a violation of this Act. The trial court shall 
take into consideration and give due weight to the approval by the national 
-association known as the "Comics Code Authority," or such associations suc- 
cessors, of any comic books or publications in question under this Act. 

Sec. 2. Buying, Selling, Distributing, Exhibiting, Preparing, Possession 
"OF. or Bringing Into State Any Equipment for Preparing, Lewd and Obscene 
Matteb. — No person, firm, copartnership, or corporation shall buy, sell, cause 
to be sold, advertise, lend, give away, offer, show, exhibit, distribute, cause to 
T)e distributed, or design, copy, draw, photograph, print, etch, engrave, cut, carve, 
make, publish, prepare, assist in preparing, solicit or receive subscriptions for, 
or hold in possession with intent to sell, lend, give away, offer, show, exhibit, 
distribute, or cause to be distributed or bring or cause to be brought into the 
State any obscene, lewd, salacious, or lascivious book, pamphlet, picture, paper, 
letter, magazine, newspaper, writing, print, printing, film, negative, transcription, 
Avire, or tape recording, cast, cut, carving, figure, image, or other matter, article, 
or instrument of indecent character or immoral use, or any equipment, machinery, 
or devices used or intended to be used in the preparation, manufacturing or pro- 
ducing of such obscene matter and material. The trial court shall take into 
•consideration and give due weight to the approval by the national association 
Icnown as the "Comics Code Authority," or such associations successors, of any 
comic books or publications in question under this Act. 


Section 3. Distribution of Indecent Articles: Tie-in Sales.— No person 
firm, co-partnership or corporation shall as a condition to a sale or delivery for 
resale ot any paper, magazine, book, periodical, or publication require that the 
purchaser or consignee receive for resale any other article, book, or other publi- 
cation reasonably believed by the purchaser or consignee to be obscene lewd 
lascivious, filthy, indecent, or disgusting. ' 

Section 4. Seizure and Confiscation of Equipment Used in Production or 
Manufacture of Indecent Literature or Articles and of Vehicles Used in 
Distribution of Indecent Articles Authorized.— Any peace officer of this state 
may seize any equipment used in the printing, production, or manufacture of 
indecent and obscene literature, matter, or articles of whatever nature and may 
seize any vehicle or other means of transportation used in the distribution of 
such indecent and obscene literature, matter, or articles, and may arrest any 
person m charge thereof. The procedure prescribed in Chapter oq^PA of the 
Aorth Dakota Revised Code of 1943 relating to confiscation of equipment used 
m the commission of crimes shall apply and shall be followed in carryino- out 
the provisions of this section. .r » ui. 

Section 5. PENALT^^— Any person who violates any of the provisions of this 
Act shall be punishable by a fine of not to exceed one thousand dollars or by 
imprisonment for not to exceed one year, or by both such fine and imprison- 
ment. The term "person" herein shall include any firm, co-partnership or cor- 
poration. ' 

Section 6. Severability.- Should any part of this Act be adjudged invalid or 
unconstitutional, such adjudication shall affect only the part of this Act spe- 
wfically covered thereby and shall not affect any other provisions or parts of this 

Section 7. Repeal.— Sections 12-2107, 12-2109, 12-2111 of the North Dakota 
Revised Code of 1943 are hereby repealed. 

Senator Lakger. And I wish, Mr. Chumbris, that you would mail 
a copy of that law to every attorney general in the United States, so 
that they may have the benefit of the North Dakota legislation, and 
they may draw up statutes similar to or even more stringent, if they 
want to, so that they will have a guide to go by. Tell them we would 
like to have them acknowledge receipt of a copy of that law, if you 

If the attorney general of North Dakota can't furnish such copies, 
we will have it duplicated and mailed out to them. Also send a copy 
to the Attorney General of the United States. 

Mr. Chumbris. I might point out, Mr. Chairman, that during the 
session that passed this legislation, 1955, our subcommittee was in 
North Dakota on official business and other matters. And the Judi- 
ciary Committee was very much interested in this problem, and asked 
our subcommittee staff members to coordinate the efforts. 

Tliat was one instance of excellent coordination between Federal 
and State committees, legislative committees, in working on a bill 
that, would be a deterrent to this pornographic filth that gets to our 
children throughout the country. 

Senator Laxger. Senator Kefauver took a great interest in that, 
and I remember that he asked the staff particularly to go up to the 
Judiciary Committee on North Dakota, they were 'in session at that 
time, and bring it to the attention specifically of the iudiciary com- 

Senator Kefauver told me that there wasn't any objection— I believe 
you were out tlisr, Mr. Chumbris— on the part of a single legislator. 
1 he matter was presented to them out there at one of their meetings 
ot the judiciary committee of the house— I believe it was the joint 
meeting of the house and senate out there. It passed without a single 
vote m opposition to it. 


Senator Kefauver is very proud of the fact, and lie lias a right to 
be, that in that State we helped the legislature to set an example for 
other States to follow. 

Mr. BuRGUM. Of course, there is one thing out there, the distances 
are great, and the population is comparatively sparse. There are a 
lot of wide open spaces, and you probably don't have the available 
market, as readily as you would have it in some of the congested areas. 

Mr. Chumbris. INIr. Attorney General, you have heard the testi- 
mony of Inspector Blick here earlier this afternoon as to some of 
the problems that the police department has in dealing with this 
pornographic material, first, in apprehending the culprit, and then 
in seeing that he is prosecuted, and then after being j)rosecuted, if 
convicted, given sufficient penalty. 

In view of the legislation that was introduced and passed by the 
State of North Dakota, would you like to comment further, so that 
whatever the experience of North Dakota has, it might be transmitted 
to the other 47 States in the United States. 

Mr. BuRGUM, Well, of course, we haven't had any experience under 
this new bill, but I think there is a general tendency to make penalties 
too light, to give suspended sentences, or to treat the whole matter so 
that it doesn't justify the evidence that is put into the prosecution. 

As the inspector pointed out, you make a veiy sincere effort to run 
down a crime, and you spend the money of State, and then there is a 
suspended sentence given, or a very light penalty, and a promise gotten 
from the defendant that he will be good in the future. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you state that much of the failure to give 
stiffer penalties for this offense can be attributed to the fact that the 
general public has not yet been apprised of the seriousness of this 
filth and the fact that it gets to so many children in our Nation ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I think so, very definitely. 

To be perfectly frank about it, I didn't realize until I heard the 
inspector and the gentlemen here who have been testifying how wide- 
spread was the circulation and the money that is involved in this sort 
of thing. 

Of course, I can remember when I was a boy — and that is a long 
time ago- — seeing pictures, but it was unusual, it was a rare thing. 
Now apparently it is resorted to on a pretty well organized basis. 

Mr. Chumbris. And the magnitude of this particular production 
<"aid distribution throughout the country has hit a proportion beyond 
the vision of even people who are actively engaged in tracking dowr 
this type of crime; is that correct? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I think so. 

I think that most people, including law enforcement officers out in 
our State, have no idea as to the way this is being carried out in, for 
instance, some of the large metropolitan centers. 

Mr. Chumbris. There was an exhibit introduced here a moment ago 
that I would like for you to see. I would like for you to take a look 
at that, Mr. Burgum, and see how debased some people have gotten in 
this pornographic matter, and how it affects children. 

That is a picture portraying a mother and her three children. And 
every one of those are under 10 years of age, or even less, as was testi- 
fied to by Inspector Blick. I can understand the reason for the great 
care that this subcommittee has taken in going into this particular 


Now, nothing went on in our days as a child like that. 

Mr. BiTRGUM. No ; it is a new field to me, I am frank to say. I think 
that the Federal enactment certainly is justified in a situation of this- 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, as I was pointing out, the magnitude of this 
particular business, during the course o'f our investigation in New 
York, through the cooperation 

Senator Langer. Mr. Chumbris, it isn't only in New York ; we have- 
had hearings in California, Palm Springs, showing the literature- 
pouring m from Mexico. And San Diego has produced a lot of this 
We have had hearings all over the United States, and the situation^ 
isn't any worse m New York than it is other places. 

Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. 

I wanted to point out, for comment from the Attorney General, that 
while we were conducting hearings in New York that two large raids 
were made, one in the southeastern part of the United States, and one- 
m the southwestern part of the United States, which indicated the 
tremendous amounts of money that is being made in the exportation: 
of this pornographic material. 

It goes to point out that the magnitude of this particular distribu- 
tion and the manufacture of pornography is unlimited. And we are 
gaining more and more information day by day as we proceed with 
this particular investigation. 

In our opinion, with legislation such as was introduced in North 
Dakota, and also discussed by Inspector Blick, which is being sub- 
mitted by the subcommittee to the Senate on Monday, do you believe- 
that legislation along that line will act as a deterrent? 

Senator Danger. Just one minute. Not introduced in North 
Dakota, but passed in North Dakota, signed by the Governor. 

Mr. BuRGUM. I believe so. I believe it would in our State, I son 
sure, if it were enforced. 

Mr. Chumbris. Are there any other comments that you would like 
to make at this time, sir ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I do not know of any, I don't believe. 

Senator Danger. Mr. Attorney General, you are familiar with the 
fact that in North Dakota during the last 3 years we haven't had a 
single murder ; you are familiar with that fact, which was sent out by 
J. Edgar Hoover a while ago. 

Would you say that perhaps one reason that we have had such a 
splendid record out there is due to the fact that we haven't had litera- 
tuer of that sort out there in large quantities? We have had very 
little of that sort of stuff there; isn't that true? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I think that is generally true. You have a pretty 
free and open country out there, you know. But I think there is a 
little difference — not that the people are any better, but they are 
nearer to the hills and to the rivers, and that sort of thing. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Attorney General, I would like to point out 
that we have received replies from chiefs of police who state that the 
traffic in pornography and obscene literature is hitting the rural 
areas at a much greater percentage than it is hitting the local areas 
in the past few years. 

And therefore, North Dakota, not being confronted with it at this 
time, it isn't necessarily true that it will not be confronted with it, 


since in other parts of the country in rural areas this has become a 

serious problem. . ^ ^i t ^i ■ i 

Mr. BuRGUM. Of course, it may be more prevalent tlian i think. 
It may be that it just hasn't come to my attention. But I was assist- 
ant State's attornev for a couple of years, and then State s attorney, 
and I never had a prosecution for the thing. It may be that this just 
didn't head up the right way. -, . i .1 i • 

Mr. Chui^ibris. Other than the incidents referred to by the chair- 
man, we have had very little information of this particular porno- 
o-raphic material getting into or getting out of North Dakota, so our 
niformation is similar to the information that you are giving the 

committee. t c^. . 

But I did want to point out that the rural areas of the United States 
have been faced with an increase in this particular traffic. 

Senator Langer. Of course, North Dakota is a very religious State. 
Some time ago the Saturday Evening Post wrote up North Dakota 
from a religious angle, and it showed, for example, in Traill County, 
in 3 townships thev have 12 churches. And they had photographs 
of some of those churches, and we are very proud of the religious 
atmosphere out there in that State, 

These churches, as I remember it, are all Lutheran Churches. You 
are familiar with Traill County, you have been up there a great 
many times, and you know the very fine religious atmosphere that 
we have up there. I believe you yourself were at one time head of 
the Methodist An^le, isn't that true? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Tliat is right; yes. 

Senator Danger. And I think you will agree with me that the 
people up there are perhaps more religious than they are in most 
States ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Well, the Lutheran Church, for instance, is very 
strong in that State, because it was settled by people from northern 
Europe, German, Scandinavian. The Catholic Church is also strong. 

But, as I said about the passage of this bill, you know it was almost 
unanimous. Parents — most parents, certainly— are death against this 
sort of thing, the parents of children— it would be the last thing they 
would want the children to get hold of. 

Mr. Chumbris. I would like to make one further comment, Mr. 
Chairman, that tlie testimony in our hearings on pornography showed 
that one distributor had l7l distributing points in 14 States, most 
of which were in rural areas. So it indicates that there is an increased 
traffic in rural areas, as well as in the larger cities, throughout the 
United States. 

Mr. Simon, hearing the testimony of the attorney general from the 
State of North Dakota, and also the testimony of Mr. Blick, would you 
like to comment on the advisability of stiffer penalties in the statutes, 
not only on the Federal level but also on the State level ? 

Mr. Simon. As far as the Federal is concerned, I feel that there 
should be a minimum sentence imposed, although I don't know how 
that could be worked out. 

There are a lot of factors that are taken into consideration before a 
man is sentenced, such as a presentence investigation, and extenuating 
circumstances involved in the individual case. But I do feel that this 
considerable traffic is probably responsible for the fact, of course, that 
there aren't stiffer penalties imposed. 




Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. O'Brien, we asked several questions of 
Mr. Simon so that it would answer the particular questions that were 
coming in from this side of the table. 

Would you like to add anything further? I know we distracted 
you from your prepared statement. Would you like to add anything 
further at this time before we move on to Mr. Simon for a complete 
statement from him as to the investigative procedures of the Post Office 
Department ? 

Mr. O'Brien-. Well, I can say this: That our problem in dealing 
with these matters comes into a great variety of indecent matters. 
For instance, we not only have these obscene movies which you have 
heard a lot about today, these photographic records of indecent con- 
duct, both between men and women, and sometimes between persons 
of the same sex, these deviate activities, but what you might call the 
very lowest and most heinous kind of indecency, but you have other 
categories of indecent matter which are a great problem, I think, and 
which predispose the mind to accept, and perhaps embrace, the more 
horrendous forms of obscenity. 

You have the beginning of obscenity introduced to the young, and 
I presume to tlie susceptible adult in certain types of periodical litera- 
ture, which deal in sex crimes and strip-tease picture, and also in the 
sale of slides and post cards, and all kinds of printed matter, drawings, 
and pamphlets and books about sex, which are often sold under the 
guise of education, which really are sold and advertised in such a 
manner as to lead the readers to buy them as pornography. 

One of these on the border, Illustrated Sex Facts, we have a pending 
matter on that. We are proceeding in the Congress and all over the 

As Mr. Simon brought out, there are a great quantity of complaints 
against that very company, which I won't name, but you can see it 
illustrated. That is part of a page. 

The left-hand page is the advertisement of a sex book, and the right- 
hand page is part of the contents of the girlie striptease type of mag- 
azine in which these people love to advertise, which Irving Klow 
advertises in, and a great many people advertise who want to make 
money out of selling these types of so-called educational matter. 

So you have what you might call a pseudo educational sex book, 
which is really something to describe sex, describe the intimacies of 
normal and abnormal intercourse. 

And of course, I understand and appreciate, and I have recognized 
and so said, that sex educational texts have their place, but not in the 
indecent. This is a different approach. This uses that which it is 
proper to know for improper purposes. 

Then we have a sex crime magazine, a little pocket sized magazine 
which is sometimes borderline. We have a great deal of trashy, ob- 
scene literature which, little by little, breaks down the resistance of 
the decent minded, the very worst type of stuff we have to deal with 

And we. in the Post Office De]:)artment are trying effectively to en- 
force a law against the use of the mails for such matter, if we can 
hold it to be indecent and be supported by the courts. 


That conipreliends, in my view, as great and as pernicious a volume 
of obscenity, and as pernicious an attack upon the morals of the young 
as you will find in the more expensive — perhaps more than the var- 
ious ex])ensive filthy matter that you have to confront, because it 
breaks down the general moral fiber, as I say, and the resistancy which 
the normal mind has to indecencv. 

Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. Sam Roth, who is the publisher of the 
matter which you explained in this particular chart, and who was 
explaining, for instance, this particular exhibit, which shows a draw- 
ing of a naked nnm and a naked woman in a very, very compromising 
embrace, and is this particular advertisement which did get into the 
hands of minor children, which was sent to our subcommittee 
liy the irate parent ; he pointed out that such a drawing, even though 
it got into the hands of a juvenile, would not have any effect on them, 
although it would have an effect on somebody over 25 years of age. 
Would you agree with his thinking on that particular point? 
Mr. O'Brien.' No; I do not agree with his thinking on that par- 
ticular point, or any point, for Mr. Eoth has been a constant source 
of trouble to the Post Office Department for a long period of years. 

And while he tells me that he is in effect an apostle of propriety, I 
am unable to accept his statement, because every circular, pamphlet, 
book or pictu]-e which has emanated from his establishment has been 
of the nature which I have considered tending to degrade the morals 
of the public. 

Mr. Chumbris. Are there any other particular charts there, Mr. 
O'Brien, that you would like to explain to us at this time? I see 
that you have some very beautiful charts, and one that has taken quite 
a bit of effort on the part of the Post Office Department to put to- 

Mr. O'Brien. Well, we tried to assemble — I am afraid rather 
hastily — some sample of the literature about which we have com- 
plaints from juveniles being the addressees. 
This is the Tourlanes case. 

I don't know any others that I can talk about, because some of them 
are still pending cases. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you like to read a sample letter from an 
irate parent? 

Mr. O'Brien. Well, there are a lot of them here. 
Mr. Chumbris. This is merely a cross-section of what the Post 
Office Department has received ; is that correct? 
Mr. O'Brien. Very small sample ; yes, sir. 

I have one here which was sent to a 12-year-old girl, and to a 15- 
year-old girl, a 13-year-old boy— I don't know whether these people 
are willing to have their complaints incorporated in the record, or 
their names. 

Mr. Chumbris. You can omit the names; just read the contents. 
Most of these were mailed to teen-age boys, 17, 13, and 1 was mailed 
to a 12-year-old child. In fact, one child wrote in and said, "I am 
a 16-year-old girl, and I received the sex advertisement in the mail, 
and i want to know why it was sent to me." The children themselves 
resented this. 

And, of course, another thing that I should mention is that appar- 
ently the mailing lists which are used by many of these people include 
the names of those that are registered at prep schools and academies, 


and such places. And they hope that some of the boys will buy sets 
of these dirty pictures and dirty pamphlets and circulate them among 
the student body, and thereby make a lot more sales. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, there was testimony adduced at our 
previous hearing which indicated that Mr. Irving Klaw, whom you 
mentioned earlier in your testimony, had at least, I think, 60 percent 
of his mailing list made up of yoimg girls between the ages of 6 to 16 
for the movie stills. 

He is known as one of the kings of the pinup girls. 

Now, that means that Mr. Klaw could use that mailing list also 
for the distribution of his circulars, such as the circulars you have 
on these various exhibits. 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir. 

And I might say that Mr. Klaw is the most prolific producer and 
the most regular printer of illustrated circulars sliowing these torch 
pictures and so-called pinup — women wrestling ; women, of course, in 
suggestive attitudes ; women boxing ; women strolling with each other ; 
women tearing each other's clothes off — we have movies which we 
can show the committee. 

Mr. CnuMBRis. Mr. O'Brien, the technical name for some of those 
pictures is fetish, bondage pictures ; is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Brien. They are bondage, or fetish pictures, where the girls 
are tied up or being spanked or beaten, or where they wear heavy 
leather boots, or other equipment which tends to exhibit the acti\dty of 
their limbs. 

That, of course, is his principal stock in trade. 

Mr. Chumbris. I show you here an exhibit which was introduced 
in the previous hearings, showing a catalog put out by Irving Klaw, 
the pinup king. 

Are these examples of the type of advertisements that go through- 
out the country, and many of them reach minors ? 

Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir. This is a very good sample of a large 

He also sells a smaller catalog frequently. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you please read into the record some of the 
types of pictures as he personally describes them in his own catalog? 

Mr. O'Brien. Well, one caption here is entitled "New Cheesecake 
Photos," photos of models showing various poses. Movies No. 254, 
"Chris Strips for Bed;" "Our new high heel movie entitled 'Chris 
Strips for Bed," starring new model Frisk Penneas." And it is avail- 
able in both 8-millimeter and 16-millimeter size. 

Mr. Chumbris. About some of the bondage pictures, does he have 
some of those portrayed in that catalog ? 

Mr. O'Brien. May I say, before I answer that, that I just had a 
day-long conference with a psychiatrist attached to one of the larger 
courts in this country, who discussed these pictures and pointed out 
the fetish aspects, the sexually stimulating fetish features like the 
high heels and the boots. 

Mr. Chumbris. Would you give that doctor's name, please. 

Mr. O'Brien. I want to use him as a witness. Do you mind if I 
clon't give it right now ? 

Mr. Chumbris. Might I point out, in the testimony on these partic- 
ular pictures Dr. George Henry of Cornell University testified to the 
fact that these particular pictures have a greater effect, an impact, 


on certain sudden persons than a nude picture or a picture with slight 

Would you agree? 

Mr. O'Brien. My information, from many cases involving con- 
ferences with psychiatrists and others, is that they incite people to 

.crime. - . , i 

Mr. CiiuMBRis. That is the bondage and fetish people you are re- 
ferring to ? 

Mr. O'Brien. That is right. 

As I said before, I have issued a complaint against Mr. Klaw, and 
1 have a copy here. . ^ t t^ i 

Senator Langer. I think you have read the testimony of J. i.dgar 
Hoover on this matter, too. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, we didn't get to your particular state- 
ment' but asked certain questions of you. We would like for you 
to make whatever comments you would like to make at this particular 
time on your activity on behalf of the Post Office Department to curtail 
pornographic matters from getting into the mails. 

Mr. Simon. We subscribe to a large number of magazines, and also 
purchase a number of magazines on the newsstands. These maga- 
:zines are examined for ads of suspect dealers in obscene matter, and 
such advertisements are used as a basis for a large number of our 
investigations. j. n • • 

These investigations are conducted through the use of fictitious 
names and what is known as test correspondence. As a result of 
such correspondence, I have used, oh, possibly 200 names in connection 
with this work. As a result, these names have gotten on mailing 
lists of various dealers in obscene matters, and we have seen a large 
number of circulars from all parts of the country. 

Such circular matter is also made the basis of investigation. In 
addition, we get thousands of complaints from the public during the 
course of the'year, from persons who have received such literature, 
and including a large number from parents of juveniles. 

We examine our files, and if there is no investigation under way, 
we do institute an investigation. So we do make an investigation of 
every case that is brought to our attention, either in the form of 
advertising or, either through periodical advertising or unsolicited 
circular matter, as well as complaints from the public. 

We don't have any particular difficulty with the extremely porno- 
graphic matter, such as Inspector Blick described this morning. 
Most United States attorneys don't prosecute in that type of case. 
But we very rarely will get a United States attorney to authorize 
prosecution in connection with this type of matter, over which we 
have most of our difficulty. 

Senator Langer. The United States attorneys have got to obey the 
Attorney General. What is the attitude of the Attorney General 
on it ; do you know ? 

Mr. Simon. They are quite upset over a lot of complaints that 
have been received^ and it is left up to the individual United States 
attorneys as to whether they desire prosecution. But most United 
States attorneys, with respect to this type of matter, feel that they 
will not be successful in prosecuting. 


Most of our difRciilty is in the larger cities, and we feel that if 
we could get legislation that would permit prosecution at the offices 
of address, we would be able to curb a number of these. 

I have for the past 6 or 7 years been endeavoring to obtain a con- 
viction at the office of address in connection with the mailing of 
obscene matter, that is, prosecute the mailer at the office of address 
under sections 1461 and 3237. 

Section 3237 states that where the mails are used, it is a continuing 
offense, and prosecution can be instituted at the office of mailing 
address or any point through which it passes. 

We have obtained a number of indictments in various jurisdictions, 
but almost invariably the defendants have entered a plea of guilty. 
And we have had very few contested cases. But in one case of the 
larger dealers in obscene matter, we had an 82-count indictment re- 
turned in the State of Kansas approximately 4 or 5 years ago, against 
one of the larger dealers in this type of material, stuff' such as is dis- 
played here. They were completely nude, but not the action type of 
photograph, or motion picture film.^ 

The judge in the district court held that the offense was complete 
when the matter was deposited in the mails in California, and he 
dismissed the indictment. The case went up to the court of appeals 
at Denver, and the court of appeals sustained the lower courts. 

Now, we have introduced legislation, as Mr. O'Brien mentioned, 
which is pending before the budget now, as I understand, to permit 
prosecution at the office of mailing address or any point through 
which it passes, that is, amended the basic law of 1461, which would 
overcome the oi)jection raised by the court of appeals. 

Senator Laxger. Would you write a letter to Budget Bureau- 
ask Senator Kefauver to send a letter to the Budget Bureau, enclos- 
ing some of these pictures ? I think it would influence the Bureau 
to give its consent to favorable legislation on this. 

Mr. Simon. I think tliat legislation was introduced last sevssion 
and never left the budget. 

Mr. CiiUMBRis. Do you remember the number of the bill ? 

Mr. Simon. No, unless Mr. O'Brien has that. 

Mr. Chumbris. What was the number of that bill during the last 
'Mr. O'Brien. Wliich bill ? 

Mr. Chumbris. The one which makes it an offense on both ends. 

Mv. O'Brien. I don't know. 

Mr. Simon. I might possibly have that confused with the impound- 
ing bill. 

Mr. O'Brien. The impounding bill is 174 of this Congress. 

Mr. Simon. That is in this Congress, too? 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, on this question of the United States 
attorneys being relunctant to prosecute on the Klaw tvpe of a picture 
that is being sent through the mails, since the Soliday investigation 
and conviction in Baltimore in May of this year, don't you think 
that that would encourage their action also against pictures put out 
by Klaw that are sent through the mails ? 

Mr. Simon. Since that hearing up in New York I am beginning 
to notice more sympathy from the United States attorneys. 

Mr. Chumbris. You will note that Mr. Klaw did not testify as to 
his activities, but took advantage of the immunity clause of tlie fifth 


jiniendment when he was called as a witness in the hearings in 
New York. 

Mr. SiMOx. I recall that. 

Mr. CiiuMBRis. Have you anything further to add at this time, 
Mr. Simon? 

Mr. Simon. I might mention a case which just came to my attention 
about 6 weeks ago. It is the first time in my experience where I have 
found a minor involved in the sale and distribution through the mails 
of extremel}' pornographic matter. 

In the middle of April I caused the arrest of a IG-year-old high- 
school boy, who had just turned 16 in April, for engaging in the sale 
of extremely pornographic matter. He mimeographed and sent 
through the mails a large number of lists of approximately 51 porno- 
graphic post picture films. 

And that boy came from a very fine family, mother and father 
separated. The mother knew that the youngster was engaged in the 
mail-order business, but he developed this extremely pornographic 
business about last August, I think he said, the latter part of August, 
and since then up to the time of his arrest he sold over $3,000 worth 
of i)ornographic film. 

We have ascertained from the boy his source of supply, and that 
matter is now before the United States attorney at Los Angeles, in 
which district the supplier was located. 

Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, I would like to ask you, the testimony 
that you are receiving now, the psychiatric testimony, has it been to 
the effect that the fetish and the bondage type of a picture is one that 
is sufficient to come within the definition set forth by our courts as 
to what constitutes obscene and lewd ? 

Mr. Simon. Well, there has been considerable difference of opinion 
on that particular score. I have spoken to several psychiatrists, and 
while they feel that it has a demoralizing effect on the persons whose 
minds are open to such type of material, they have been reluctant 
to testify. 

Xow, as Mr. O'Brien said, we discussed this matter with one of 
the leading psychiatrists in the country, who will testify for us in 
this Klaw case. 

Mr. Chumbris. May I point out that in the Soliday case in Balti- 
more, the psychiatrist definitely testified it was upon his testimony 
that the jury brought in a verdict of conviction ; that bondage pictures 
and fetish pictures w-ere sufficient to incite lust, and thereby came 
within the definition of the court. 

And also, the psychiatrist. Dr. George Henry, from Cornell Uni- 
versity, testified to the same effect. And I believe, if you examine the 
testimony of Dr. Karpman, from St. Elizabeths Hospital, you will 
find that this testimony was supporting the position of the other two 
psychiatrists, Avhich Avould indicate that the trend of psychiatric 
thinking would be sufficient to obtain convictions in the type of pic- 
tures that are being sent through the mail by Mr. Klaw. 

Mr. Simon. I have discussed the Klaw case with Dr. Karpman on 
several occasions. I had also interested the United States attorney 
over in Baltimore in the prosecution of Klaw in the district of 


But after the decision of the court of appeals in Denver, holding^ 
that you can't prosecute the mailer at the post office of address, we had. 
to give up that particular phase. 

The United States attorney at New York has declined to proceeds 

Mr. Chumbris. Could you give us the sort of material that this. 
36-year-old boy was distributing that you are referring to? 

Mr. Simon. It is a dealer in the vicinity of Los Angeles. The mat- 
ter is now before the United States attorney at Los Angeles. The man 
has not been arrested, to my knowledge, and is awaiting action of the- 
grand jury. 

Under those circumstances, I don't think you want to make his 
name public. 

Senator Langer. We do not. 

Mr. Simon. I will be glad to tell you his name in private. 

Mr. Chumbris. I have no further questions. 

Senator Langer. I want to thank everybody that was here today. 
I want to thank especially the attorney general from North Dakota 
for coming down here. I want to thank him for giving us the benefit 
of his experience. 

I want you to know, on behalf of Senator Kef auver, that we appre- 
ciate your cooperation. 

I want to thank the post office authorities. We appreciate the kind 
of cooperation we have received from you everyplace, whether it has 
been Los Angeles, New York, or wherever it was, we found we could 
rely upon you to help us out. 

Mr. Simon. The chief inspector is anxious to cooperate with every- 

Senator Langer. This hearing is adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 4: 10 p. m., the hearing was adjourned.) 


(Obscene and Pornographic Materials) 

SATURDAY, JUNE 18, 1955 

United States Senate, 
Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile 
Delinquency, of the Committee on the Judiciary, 

Los Angeles^ Calif. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 40 a. m., at room 
518, United States Post Office and Court House Building, Los Angeles, 
Calif., Senator Estes Kefauver presiding. 

Present : Senator Kefauver. 

Also present : James H. Bobo, counsel ; and William Haddad and 
Carl Perian, consultants. 

Chairman Kefauver. This morning the subcommittee will study the 
relationship of pornographic materials to juvenile delinquency. 
Hearings on this subject have already been held in New York City 
and Washington. 

Last year the subcommittee, during its community hearings, discov- 
ered that pornography was getting into the hands of children. Wlien 
the work of this subcommittee was resumed this year, we decided that 
a further study of this situation was long overdue. 

Our contention was fortified by letters from every section of this 
country, complaining about the pornographic materials reaching 

Psychiatrists called before the subcommittee testified that a direct 
relationship between pornography and juvenile delinquency existed. 
A 110-percent increase in sex crimes may be attributed, in part, to these 

Undoubtedly, pornography is one of the contributing factors to the 
increase in juvenile delinquency and sex crimes in the United States. 

This business thrives on the young inquisitive mind, and the por- 
nographers slant much of their materials to children. 

Society is often derelict in providing the proper sex education for 
our youngsters. When a child doesn't have this proper sex education, 
he is forced to search in the gutter for his information. In the gutter 
he finds this filth. 

The abnormal is portrayed as the normal. Adults engage in illicit 
acts, lending prestige to the situation and creating the wrong impres- 
sion in the child's mind. 

One shocking fact uncovered by this subcommittee is that pornog- 
raphy is big business in the United States. Conservative estimates 
jdace the gross sale of these materials at three to four hundred million 
dollars a year. Much of this money comes from the lunch and allow- 
ance money of our children. 



This traiRc exists because of gaping loopholes in Federal legislation. 

Under present laws, a pornographer cannot ship his materials 
through the mails. But he can load up a truck and move his filth 
across State lines with complete ease. 

I'f the Congress acts on our recommendations, this situation will be 
cleared up. 

Postal and custom laws must also be tightened. After these hear- 
ings, our recommendations will be presented to the Congress. 

But not only has the Federal Government been derelict in its duties ; 
local communities have failed to protect our children from these por- 
nographic materials. 

These big-business pornographers are often let off with slight fines 
and suspended jail sentences. One of the biggest operators in the 
country — a man our subcommittee investigators have tracked 
throughout the East — was recently released on a $50 bail which he 
forfeited. He will soon be arrested in another community, if the pat- 
tern of his past activities is any indication. And he will probably be 
let off with another slight fine. Most communities have no way of 
knowing about this man's vicious activities. 

Every commmiity in this country must look at its own laws and in- 
vestigate its own situation. Only through an alert public opinion 
can these pornographers fuially be stopped. 

Here in California the subconnnittee is exploring another phase of 
this vast business — that of the mass mailing of pornographic and 
semi])ornographic materials. 

Our preliminary investigations indicate that much of these ma- 
terials are mailed here in California. 

Numerous reports have reached our office complaining that these 
materials were mailed to children as young as 10 years. The post 
office, too, has received similar reports. 

Several witnesses appearing before us in New York City used the 
])rivilege of the fifth amendment in refusing to answer our questions. 
Members of the subcommittee felt that this privilege was improperly 
used and we have recommended that certain witnesses be cited for con- 
tempt of Congi^ess. Certain other witnesses will be charged with 

I hope that our witnesses today will consider very carefully their 
decision on whether or not to cooperate with the subcommittee's in- 

Pornography is a difficult subject to talk about. Certain dangers 
arise from spotlighting this situation. But do we hide our heads in 
the sand like an ostrich? Or do we bring out the facts in the most 
candid manner, and have the warm sunlight of public opinion act to 
stop this menace ? I think we must proceed forward with this study 
and rely upon the good judgment of our citizenry. It is far better to 
see and stop than to close our eyes and let this business grow and 

At this point I want to thank very much the Los Angeles Police 
Department and also the postal inspectors who have been of great 
help to us. They have cooperated wonderfully with our subcommit- 
tee, and they are very alert to the problem that is with us out here 
in southern California; have been taking active and affirmative meas- 
ures to do something about it. They have been very thorough and 
painstakingly helpful to the staff of our subcommittee in working up 


the hearing today. Also the sheriff's office and several of his deputies 
have been very line to us. 

Mr. Bobo, who is our first witness this morning? 

Mr. Bobo. JNIrs. Mary Dorothy Tager. 

Chairman KErAu\T.R. Mrs. Tager, will you come around and will you 
hold up your hand. 

(Mrs. Tager was sworn.) 

Cluiirman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. We want to give everj?-- 
body a chance to be heard and develop our case as fully as possible. 
This is Saturday and I know that everybody would like to get away 
as soon as we possibly can, so you interrogate Mrs. Tager. 


Mr. BoBO. Mrs. Tager, would you state your full name and your 
address and where you are presently living for the record ? 

]\Irs. Tager. Mary Dorothy Tager, 2100 Ocean Boulevard, Balboa, 

]Mr. Bobo. Mrs. Tager, are you married ? Do you have a family ? 

Mrs. Tager. I am not married; I am divorced. I have a family. 
I have a girl, Dorothy, 17. I have a boy, David, 15. 

Mr. Bobo. Mrs. Tager, have you ever been engaged in a mail order 
business of sending photos and other things through the mail? 

Mrs, Tager. Yes, sir ; I have. 

]\Ir. Bobo. At what time did you begin in this business ? 

Mrs. Tager. Well, I would say some time later in 1948, and I was 
active in the business uj), oh, until some time in 1051. 

]\Ir. Bobo. Were you in the business by yourself ? 

^Irs. Tager. No ; I was in with my ex-husband and a partner. 

Mr. Bobo. And under what trade name did you operate this business ? 

Mrs. Tager. Well, actually, under several. We operated under 
Stand-Out Products, NoA^el Arts, T and R Sales. They are the main 
names we operated under. We also operated under, oh, many hun- 
dreds, I guess, of fictitious names. 

]Mr. BoBO. In this business what was the merchandise which you 
sold. Mrs. Tager? 

Mrs. Tager. I sold nudes, straight nudes, nothing pornographic, 
consisting of slides, black and white films, 8 and 16 millimeter, 60, 
100, 400-foot reels. 

Mr. BoBO. Would you put the microphone over closer to you ? 

Mrs. Tager. My nudes were nudes. I mean, as you would see on 
any calendar. It was not nothing 

Chairman Kefauver. Mrs, Tager, will you talk a little louder so 
we can all hear? Pull the microphone a little closer to you. 

Mrs. Tager. As I say, my nudes were straight nudes. They weren't 
wliat you could classify as pornographic. They were no different than 
you would see on any calendar or any magazine j^ou pick up on a 

Mr. BoBO. In these nudes which you sold, many of them were in 
various suggestive poses. Would you mean by the fact that they were 
not pornographic, was that they might not he considered under the 
present laws pornographic? 

Mrs. Tager. Well. no. Personally I don't consider a picture of a 
nude woman as pornographic. I think it definitely depends on the 

65263—55 21 


way the woman is loosed or — now, to me pornographic material woukl 
be more in a strip sequence that would be very suggestive, more so 
than a straight nude. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you sell these particular nudes and novelty cards 
through the United States mail ^ 

Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BoBO. How would you secure the names of customers to whom 
you were sending this ? 

Mrs. Tager. Well, there are many sources. Of course, magazine 
advertising is one of the main sources of your names. There are many 
ads appearing even today in magazines or comic books, which is more 
or less a come-on actually for nude picture buyers. So over a period 
of time from the replies you get from these various magazines, you 
accunnilate a very large mailing list. 

Mr. BoBO. Do you buy these mailing lists from other persons, from 
the publishers of so-called legitimate magazines^ 

Mrs. Tager. Yes; that can be done. That can be done. 

Mr. BoBO. Did you ever purchase any mailing addresses from any 
of the so-called legitimate magazines I 

Mr. Tager. No. I purchased mailing names from Mosley, who 
was — well, that is a legitimate place of business where they 

Chairman Kefauver. I didn't understand that name. Mosley'^ 

Mrs. Tager. Mosley. 

Chairman Kefauaer. How do you spell it ^ 

Mrs. Tager. M-o-s-l-e-y, I believe. 

Chairman Kefai^ver. And where is Mosley's establishment ? 

Mrs. Tager. Well now, he is through the Middle West somewhere. 
Offhand I couldn't tell you. 

Chairman Kefau\^er. You mean 

Mrs. Tager. I have forgotten just where it is: it has been so long. 

Chairman Kefauver. ^^^lat is the official name of the companv, 

Mrs. Tager. Mosley Mailing Lists, I imagine. 

Chairman Kefauver. Mosley Mailing Lists? 

Mrs. Tager. Yes. That is a legitimate house where they sell mail- 
ing lists to anyone that has anything to sell. 

Mr. BoBO. You don't know what city in the Midwest he is located 

Mrs. Tager. Offhand, I don't. I don't — it's been so long since I 
have contacted this concern. 

Mr. BoBo. In buying mailing lists from Mosley or from others, was 
there any specification as to the names that would a])pear on these 
mailing lists, as to the type of people whom you wanted to mail to? 

Mrs. Tagfj{. Well, yes. If you were going to buy a mailing list, 
naturally you would buy a list of men buyers who were interested in 
similar merchandise. 

Mr. BoBo. Did you make any effort to determine, when you received 
the mailing list, as to just who the ])eople were; whether these were 
men buyers? Included on these mailing lists